Do you think a locked 60 is "Chest Beating" that is preventing great experiences for Forza?

[FordGTGuy]

We don’t like the term ‘locked’. It would put us in first party territory where chest beating is more important than a great experience. We’ll be 60 most of the time in normal racing and we’ll push the consoles to and beyond their limits for more interesting racing. Even if that means dropping a few frames.

http://wccftech.com/project-cars-2-isnt-4k-60fps-consoles/

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ember-22nd-2017.342814/page-155#post-11859906

What do you guys think? Is Forza constantly being focused on a locked 60 hurting their ability to make the game a better experience?

 

[ImaRobot]

That quote sounds absolutely ridiculous. The fact that Pcars didn't have a locked FPS is what stopped me from playing the game, literally. I will 100% take a locked 60fps any day of the week, after seeing the horrendous issues that plagued PC. Hell, they put PD to shame when it came to FPS issues.

In these games, where input and accuracy go hand in hand, it sounds like an absolutely foolish thing to say.

 

[FordGTGuy]

That quote sounds absolutely ridiculous. The fact that Pcars didn't have a locked FPS is what stopped me from playing the game, literally. I will 100% take a locked 60fps any day of the week, after seeing the horrendous issues that plagued PC. Hell, they put PD to shame when it came to FPS issues.

Honestly, I feel most if not every game should be using Halo 5's method of a locked 60 with dynamic resolution. Especially racing games, I was just curious if people in the Forza community actually felt this way.

 

[ImaRobot]

Honestly, I feel most if not every game should be using Halo 5's method of a locked 60 with dynamic resolution.

Not too fluent with that term, but does that just mean adjusting resolution during demanding situations to make sure the fps don't take a hit?

 

[FordGTGuy]

Not too fluent with that term, but does that just mean adjusting resolution during demanding situations to make sure the fps don't take a hit?

Yes, it basically means that instead of framerate lowering it will slowly lower the resolution instead and since it's upscaled anyway it doesn't matter if it's a odd resolution.

It also means that it can run at a native resolution at times also.

 

[mrPetros]

-Promote your game by hammering hard ALL established franchises because you got dynamics, and they'slackin'.
-Deliver game, the second said dynamics think to appear, framerate drops so much game becomes unplayable.
-Put blame on console manufacturers and move to next project.
-Goto step 1

 

[Imari]

http://wccftech.com/project-cars-2-isnt-4k-60fps-consoles/

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ember-22nd-2017.342814/page-155#post-11859906

What do you guys think? Is Forza constantly being focused on a locked 60 hurting their ability to make the game a better experience?

You're suggesting that they'd have better game experiences if it wasn't locked at 60? Hah!

 

[FordGTGuy]

You're suggesting that they'd have better game experiences if it wasn't locked at 60? Hah!

Read the quote, I'm not the one saying it; I'm just asking if people actually feel this way.

 

[PzR Slim]

Feeling threatened boys

 

[Dave A]

Locking the FPS at 60 has it's disadvantages, mostly when it comes to special effects and lighting, but I definitely think the locked 60fps is a bigger gain than what you lose in effects and lighting. Everything is a compromise, you could have a racing game with 100 cars on track but to do so you'd have to simplify the graphics, physics and sounds. You need to find the happiest medium between immersive graphics, physics, features and content (such as weather, time of day, number of cars on track etc.) and I think Forza is pretty good in that respect.

 

[Brend]

For racing titles it should be a top priority to hit 60FPS.

There are no ifs and buts in this scenario for me. Especially if you're trying to offer an eSports element to the title. Nothing should impede you and the track - even if it means the game looking a little impressive.

Greenawalt and his team have done a fantastic job of hitting that goal in previous Forza titles so I'm glad to see them continue down this route. I don't see it as chest-beating at all given the actual advertisable benefits of 60FPS isn't quite as easy to communicate to the general gaming public as something like '4K'* or specific gameplay features.

It's all in the gameplay and keeping a locked 60 goes a long way in helping the overall experience.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Feeling threatened boys

Threatened?

More like insulted...

Why would I feel threatened by a game with way less cars, no upgrading, bad controller support, no equivalent livery editor, isn't prioritizing 60 fps and seems to not even hit a native 4K?

Honestly if anything sound like someone feeling threatened it's that statement I quoted in the OP.

 

[PzR Slim]

Threatened?

More like insulted...

Why would I feel threatened by a game with way less cars, no upgrading, bad controller support, no equivalent livery editor, isn't prioritizing 60 fps and seems to not even hit a native 4K?

Ha, ha, ha! You guys crack me up. Heads of game studios tend to be alpha males. They all do a bit of chest beating from time to time. Neither the locked 60fps or the not locked 60fps is 'right'. They are two different routes to take and I know that I will be enjoying the benefits that both routes give come September.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Ha, ha, ha! You guys crack me up. Heads of game studios tend to be alpha males. They all do a bit of chest beating from time to time. Neither the locked 60fps or the not locked 60fps is 'right'. They are two different routes to take and I know that I will be enjoying the benefits that both routes give come September.

Prioritizing a locked 60 isn't just "chest beating for first party" and it doesn't stop you from delivering great experiences; in fact many would argue that not maintaining a locked 60 ruins your experience.

Heads of game studios should learn that being "alpha males" only push people away from your game, people outside of this forum are not responding well to his comments. Also, no, heads of studios don't tend to be "alpha males" on social media; how many times have you seen Turn 10 or Playground Games talk crap about their competitors?



I'm not saying that not prioritizing a locked 60 is stupid I'm saying that saying a locked 60 is a PR move for first party is stupid. His statement makes him and SMS look arrogant, GT might not prioritize a locked 60(they try to get there though) but they don't come out and say it's a PR thing to do it.

The framerate isn't what separates Forza and Project Cars, it's the different focus on type of motorsport racing and entry level of the players.

Also it's not about which is "right", it's about which is preferable and a locked 60 in a racing game is preferably over a variable 60.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, there are ways to hit a locked 60 without hurting any of the "experiences", it's called a dynamic resolution.

 

[Pillo-san]

I think most of us here knows this by now. The gpu in both Xbox One X and Ps4 Pro is capable of more than 60fps @1080p. Graphic is easily scaleable, you can lower the quality settings and you can then hit those precious 60fps. But when we are talking about important things which pretty much all at Gtplanet care about like conceivable physics of the game, the cpu will be the "bottleneck" of the system. Turn10 is a "inhouse" studio that probably can do a lot of things because of the economy prowess, but the developers are still limited to the spec(cpu) of the system.

Like it has already been said it is a compromise, do you want to compromise on the physics(more sim like) making it harder to hit 60fps or do you settle with less sim like physics but hit those rock solid 60fps on a console.

To be honest 60fps is not that good anyway for a racing game, you want as high fps as possible becasue you will be more precise with your driving, you are after all travelling in high speeds so every fps will be like a unit of measurement, buttery smooth gameplay is one thing but being precise is another and that is a console not good enough for.

 

[FordGTGuy]

I think most of us here knows this by now. The gpu in both Xbox One X and Ps4 Pro is capable of more than 60fps @1080p. Graphic is easily scaleable, you can lower the quality settings and you can then hit those precious 60fps. But when we are talking about important things which pretty much all at Gtplanet care about like conceivable physics of the game the cpu will be the "bottleneck" of the system. Turn10 is a "inhouse" studio that probably can do a lot of things because of the economy prowess, but the developers are still limited to the spec(cpu) of the system.

Like it has already been said it is a compromise, do you want to compromise on the physics(more sim like) making it harder to hit 60fps or do you settle with less sim like physics but hit those rock solid 60fps on a console.

To be honest 60fps is not that good anyway for a racing game, you want as high fps as possible becasue you will be more precise with your driving, you are after all travelling in high speeds so every fps will be like a unit of measurement, buttery smooth gameplay is one thing but being precise is another and that is a console not good enough for.

This has nothing to do with the CPU.

A CPU bottleneck will lower framerate no matter what the GPU is doing(whether it's rendering the game at 480p or 4K); from what we are hearing they are talking about pushing effects on the track and cars which has to do with the GPU and not the CPU.

They could also use GPGPU to use some of the GPU power in order to help the CPU.

SMS can do what they feel is right and that's their choice and they are the only ones that can decide that but I'm just saying that other devs have found ways around this problem through techniques like dynamic resolution and it would be cool to have as an option to maintain a locked 60.

To be honest 60fps is not that good anyway for a racing game, you want as high fps as possible becasue you will be more precise with your driving, you are after all travelling in high speeds so every fps will be like a unit of measurement, buttery smooth gameplay is one thing but being precise is another and that is a console not good enough for.

Now that's some Grade-A damage control.

I mean honestly, you're trying to say a console isn't good enough to allow for precision in the thread of a forum section of a game that seems completely capable of doing so and has done for many games.

 

[Pillo-san]

This has nothing to do with the CPU.

A CPU bottleneck will lower framerate no matter what the GPU is doing(whether it's rendering the game at 480p or 4K); from what we are hearing they are talking about pushing effects on the track and cars which has to do with the GPU and not the CPU.

They could also use GPGPU to use some of the GPU power in order to help the CPU.



Now that's some Grade-A damage control.

... <-That is my answer to your statement.

Of course it has to do with the cpu. What part of the system calculates all those parameters in the physics engine and needs to feed the gpu with data, ie keep up with the gpu.
Then multiply all that for all the cars on track, maybe even ad AI...

You need to read up on how that suff works, before you point your finger on some developers when they are giving us solid info. How many Studios are you seeing giving us direct info like that?

If you have been watching some E3 interviews then you will know that when people form Turn10 get a question about physics they talk about the past, how they did stuff before everyone else but the only thing they say is that the ffb physics is improved, nothing about the physics of the game itself.

To me it is a pretty big hint, what we can expect and why they can hit 60fps on consoles with 24cars on track.

 

[PJTierney]

It would put us in first party territory where chest beating is more important than a great experience.

----

In a game where driving is meant to be taken somewhat seriously (DiRT, F1, Forza Motorsport, pCARS, AC etc.), framerate is more important than resolution in my opinion, especially a locked framerate. In these games your concentration levels are very high, and a dip in framerate can be just enough of a distraction for you to miss a braking/turning point.

It sounds to me like SMS are prioritising resolution over framerate, which I think might the wrong path to go down. I would rather see:

• An option to lock the framerate at a lower setting (around 50fps)
• An option to play the game at a locked 1080p/60fps
• An option to choose between native 4K and checkerboarded 4K.

As for whether a locked 60fps limits Forza's potential, I don't believe it does. They're a first party company who is so embedded with Microsoft that they have significantly influenced recent hardware design (those vibrating triggers on a controller? That was developed specifically for Forza Motorsport 5) and as a result their games are very highly optimised. That actually frees up more time/resources to work on other featues as the development team isn't spending the majority of its time on hitting a framerate target.

 

[FordGTGuy]

...

That is my answer to your reply. Of course it has to do with the cpu. What part of the system calculates all those parameters in the physics engine and needs to feed the gpu with data, ie keep up with the gpu.

Based on what? Do we know for a fact that it's the CPU causing the bottleneck?

One, the Xbox One X has a GPU command processor with DX12 built-in that makes any instructions(they can range from thousands of lines to hundreds of thousands of lines) down to 11 lines max and 9 for a state change. Microsoft themselves said that this gives the CPU up to a 50% boost when it comes to rendering commands.

The Xbox One/Xbox One S already have this command processor but it's said to be improved in Xbox One X. As I said GPGPU is also a option which uses spare GPU power to help the CPU.

"We essentially moved Direct3D 12," says Goossen. "We built that into the command processor of the GPU and what that means is that, for all the high frequency API invocations that the games do, they'll all natively implemented in the logic of the command processor - and what this means is that our communication from the game to the GPU is super-efficient."

Processing draw calls - effectively telling the graphics hardware what to draw - is one of the most important tasks the CPU carries out. It can suck up a lot of processor resources, a pipeline that traditionally takes thousands - perhaps hundreds of thousands - of CPU instructions. With Scorpio's hardware offload, any draw call can be executed with just 11 instructions, and just nine for a state change.

"It's a massive win for us and for the developers who've adopted D3D12 on Xbox, they've told us they've been able to cut their CPU rendering overhead by half, which is pretty amazing because now the driver portion of that is such a tiny fraction," adds Goossen.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-project-scorpio-tech-revealed

You need to read up on how that suff works, before you point your finger on some developers when they are giving us solid info. How many Studios are you seeing giving us direct info like that?.

This has to be a joke?

First you say that not being a locked 60 is "good" for racing games and now you're saying that I need to read up on how stuff works.

 

[PzR Slim]

Prioritizing a locked 60 isn't just "chest beating for first party" and it doesn't stop you from delivering great experiences; in fact many would argue that not maintaining a locked 60 ruins your experience(I know for sure the framerate mess and tearing that is the first PCars wouldn't my experience.).

Heads of game studios should learn that being "alpha males" only push people away from your game, people outside of this forum are not responding well to his comments.

I'm not saying that not prioritizing a locked 60 is stupid I'm saying that saying a locked 60 is a PR move for first party is stupid.

The framerate isn't what separates Forza and Project Cars, it's the different focus on type of motorsport racing and entry level of the players.

On a side note, the last time I played Project Cars I drove a single car on a track in the middle of the day with no weather effects and the framerate still struggled and screen tearing galore.

Dan is one of the biggest alpha males in the gaming industry. And people not responding well to his comments are blinded by their particular affiliation. Dan has made similar alpha male statements over the years. It comes with the territory. Just take it for what it is and don't let it annoy you. Certainly not worth getting annoyed enough to make a thread about.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Dan is one of the biggest alpha males in the gaming industry. And people not responding well to his comments are blinded by their particular affiliation. Dan has made similar alpha male statements over the years. It comes with the territory. Just take it for what it is and don't let it annoy you. Certainly not worth getting annoyed enough to make a thread about.

Has the sim racing community really devolved into discussions about alpha males?

People aren't responding well to his comments because his comments don't make sense.

Calling 60 fps locked "chest beating for first party" is just a load of bull and I would think that would be obvious to anyone in this community.

No, I don't give a single crap about "alpha males" the whole idea of a internet "alpha male" sounds absolutely idiotic.

I made a thread about it because he made a claim that prioritizing a locked 60 prevented games like Forza from delivering great experiences and I wanted to see the communities reaction to such an idea.

 

[mrPetros]

----

In a game where driving is meant to be taken somewhat seriously (DiRT, F1, Forza Motorsport, pCARS, AC etc.), framerate is more important than resolution in my opinion, especially a locked framerate. In these games your concentration levels are very high, and a dip in framerate can be just enough of a distraction for you to miss a braking/turning point.

It sounds to me like SMS are prioritising resolution over framerate, which I think might the wrong path to go down.

well, thats because you are young and a good guy.
to bad, old rugged guys like me, it sounds like SMS are planning to just throw unoptimized ports on consoles, not unlike they did last time.

oh, and p.s. I eat alpha males for breakfast

 

[FordGTGuy]

well, thats because you are young and a good guy.
to bad, old rugged guys like me, it sounds like SMS are planning to just throw unoptimized ports on consoles, not unlike they did last time.

oh, and p.s. I eat alpha males for breakfast

But they are "alpha males" that deliver unoptimized games while starting kickstarters for new unoptimized games before fixing the old ones.

 

[UKMikey]

I remember throwing my Xbox One copy of PCars 1 out after the framerate started to wobble uncontrollably on my 4k TV. It was constantly speeding up and slowing down. Luckily the PC version didn't have this bug.

 

[DeadHero]

Rock solid framerate should be essential. I've played too many games that failed to hit their performance target with all kind of issues: drops, stuttering, frame-pacing issues etc. and I'm not interested in playing more of them or hearing "1080p 60fps" when the game hits that only in a few situations. Hopefully other developers will learn to offer different options, like Rise of the Tomb Raider, and one of them should always come with a rock solid 60fps for a smooth gameplay experience.

 

[Pillo-san]

One, the Xbox One X has a GPU command processor with DX12 built-in that makes any instructions(they can range from thousands of lines to hundreds of thousands of lines) down to 11 lines max and 9 for a state change. Microsoft themselves said that this gives the CPU up to a 50% boost when it comes to rendering commands.



Based on what? Do we know for a fact that it's the CPU causing the bottleneck?





This has to be a joke?

First you say that not being a locked 60 is "good" for racing games and now you're saying that I need to read up on how stuff works.

First you change your post from simply : -This has nothing to do with the cpu, when I pointed out that the cpu is the systems bottleneck of perf especially if it is in something like a sim with countless of physic based calculations + it needs to feed the gpu. That is a lot of things.. From a simple, -this has nothing to do with the cpu comment, to a post that shadows what I wrote about the cpu load vs resolution(fps to be fair) It means that, higher fps=higher cpu load as it must feed the gpu more frequently compared to at 30fps.

The dx12 dedicated hardware is nothing special, it is probably just PR trick of the simple AC hardware found in all amd dx12 hardware. If it really affects the cpu then we will see the effect of it when Scorpio is out.

And wtf do you mean with damage control?
I will get both pc2 and forza 7 because they will come to pc. They both offer a bit of different things that will complement each other for me.
I see that you keep on making your own assumptions/translations on what I have said...

What do you pick:
Arcade game with rock solid 60fps
Simracer with fps that can dip to lets say 45.

make your pick.

About me saying that 60fps is not enough for a racing game is true but I am on a pc an I can hit what ever fps I want if I pick right hardware but on the consoles you are restricted to what it has.

To me you sound like someone that dont know what he is talking about yet he points at people trying to push them down...

Said

 

[FordGTGuy]

First you change your post from simply : -This has nothing to do with the cpu, when I pointed out that the cpu is the systems bottleneck of perf especially if it is in something like a sim with countless of physic based calculations + it needs to feed the gpu. That is a lot of things.. From a simple, -this has nothing to do with the cpu comment, to a post that shadows what I wrote about the cpu load vs resolution(fps to be fair) It means that, higher fps=higher cpu load as it must feed the gpu more frequently compared to at 30fps.

My post above literally still says that it has nothing to do with the CPU.

The CPU in the Xbox One X is perfectly capable of delivering 4K native at 60 fps as shown by Forza 7 and Forza 7 has dynamic weather, 24 cars on track, high framerate physics(360 fps last I checked) and more.

The dx12 dedicated hardware is nothing special, it is probably just PR trick of the simple AC hardware found in all amd dx12 hardware. If it really affects the cpu then we will see the effect of it when Scorpio is out.

Nope, the Xbox One family of consoles are the only runs with a DX12 command processor built-in; and no it isn't PR.

And wtf do you mean with damage control?
I will get both pc2 and forza 7 because they will come to pc. They both offer a bit of different things that will complement each other for me.
I see that you keep on making your own assumptions/translations on what I have said...

You're making your assumptions about the bottleneck being the CPU, so why can't I make assumptions?

I said you were damage controlling because what you said about a variable 60 fps being better made no sense.

What do you pick:
Arcade gamer with rock solid 60fps
Simracer with fps that can dip to lest say 45.

make your pick?

I choose the Simracer at a locked 60, don't pretend that Forza isn't running a ton of physics under it's hood; they have one of the most advanced tire physics models in gaming.

About me saying that 60fps is not enough for a racing game is true but I am on a pc an I can hit what ever fps I want if I pick right hardware but on the consoles you are restricted to what it has.

To me you sound like someone that dont know what he is talking about yet he points at people trying to push them down...

Said

Again from a guy that claimed a variable 60 is better for a racing game than a locked 60.

60 fps is plenty good enough for racing games but higher is better which is why these games let you do it but reaching those high framerates require expensive hardware and supporting monitors.

Yeah, I'm not going to waste my time on this conversation anymore, get your last words if you want.

 

[mrPetros]

What do you pick:
Arcade game with rock solid 60fps
Simracer with fps that can dip to lets say 45.

make your pick.

I don't know who gave you the idea that it is "physics" that bring racing games to a crawl, but it doesn't hold.
Case example: Rain
You get the same physics give or take a friction coefficient number or two, yet when GRAPHICS become heavier, game crawls.
You think physics bring it down?

especially for PCARS1, anyone who claims/believes that ...heavy physics calculations was what brought it to its knees, well, I have a nice beautiful bridge to sell you

 

[PzR Slim]

Has the sim racing community really devolved into discussions about alpha males?

People aren't responding well to his comments because his comments don't make sense.

Calling 60 fps locked "chest beating for first party" is just a load of bull and I would think that would be obvious to anyone in this community.

No, I don't give a single crap about "alpha males" the whole idea of a internet "alpha male" sounds absolutely idiotic.

I made a thread about it because he made a claim that prioritizing a locked 60 prevented games like Forza from delivering great experiences and I wanted to see the communities reaction to such an idea.

Honestly get over yourself. Someone had a bit of a pop at your favourite and you are losing your shoot over it. Grow up a bit a take it for what it is. Bell saying this is to defend the direction his studio have decided to take which means they can't achieve a locked 60fps just the same as Dan defending his studios decision not to include certain things because they want to maintain a locked 60fps. Neither is wrong and neither is right just a different way of achieving their design decisions. All this faux outrage at what someone said is pathetic. Just like how much shoot Dan got for his 'This is Forza!' performance was equally pathetic. They are studio heads promoting their games and defending their design decisions.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Honestly get over yourself. Someone had a bit of a pop at your favourite and you are losing your shoot over it. Grow up a bit a take it for what it is. Bell saying this is to defend the direction his studio have decided to take which means they can't achieve a locked 60fps just the same as Dan defending his studios decision not to include certain things because they want to maintain a locked 60fps. Neither is wrong and neither is right just a different way of achieving their design decisions. All this faux outrage at what someone said is pathetic. Just like how much shoot Dan got for his 'This is Forza!' performance was equally pathetic. They are studio heads promoting their games and defending their design decisions.

Is someone that literally just posted twice about alpha males telling me to grow up?

What a bizarro world.

This isn't about what direction his studio is taking(I literally said in this thread that they can choose to do whatever they see best and that's their decision, I've also said on this forum recently that I want these games to be diverse and not just clone each other.), it's about his statement that a locked 60 is just chest beating and isn't something that actually matters.

Bell saying this is to defend the direction his studio have decided to take which means they can't achieve a locked 60fps just the same as Dan defending his studios decision not to include certain things because they want to maintain a locked 60fps. Neither is wrong and neither is right just a different way of achieving their design decisions.

Dan doesn't call what SMS is doing chest beating, that's a bit different; but I guess he isn't alpha male enough.

Also this thread is about what the Forza community thinks of his comments as his comments are clearly pointed towards Forza.