Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[shawtyoner]

I know..I feel like my life is on trial here. Kent is the prosecuter I'm kidding..he's cool w/ me

I just want more serious racers to play on live with. I know the first couple of months will be filled w/ NFS rejects.

Well as soon as my 360 comes back from repair, "red ring of death syndrome", i will definitely look you up on live!

 

[Dave A]

As soon as, Forza 2 isn't out yet. Unless your not getting your 360 back until next month.

On another note, I'm becomeing increasing impressed with the Forza 2 demo, now that I've got the hang of the way the brakes work wit hthe triggers and what not I'm running smooth laps in the powerful road cars like the Sagaris and Ford GT, the Ford GT understeers on sweeping bends whic can really ruin your lap if just slightly over do it then have to slow down again or go off track, the Sagaris is an absolute beast to tame and hasn't been doing much understeering at all. But I can run it smoothly pretty consistenly now wit all the driving aids off. In comparison to GT4, I'd say Forza 2 feels more like Enthusia.

 

[97modman]

As soon as, Forza 2 isn't out yet. Unless your not getting your 360 back until next month.

On another note, I'm becomeing increasing impressed with the Forza 2 demo, now that I've got the hang of the way the brakes work wit hthe triggers and what not I'm running smooth laps in the powerful road cars like the Sagaris and Ford GT, the Ford GT understeers on sweeping bends whic can really ruin your lap if just slightly over do it then have to slow down again or go off track, the Sagaris is an absolute beast to tame and hasn't been doing much understeering at all. But I can run it smoothly pretty consistenly now wit all the driving aids off. In comparison to GT4, I'd say Forza 2 feels more like Enthusia.

LOL..i know the feeling, the GT40 is like holy ish..its such brute force kind of have to feather it around the turn and then coming out of it you give hell only to be greeting by tires that are begging for mercy..if your playing in 5.1 you can here that supercharger spinning..i will be on in 5min..

I just want more serious racers to play on live with. I know the first couple of months will be filled w/ NFS rejects.

please no..no..i will pay extra monthly dues to keep them away..

 

[Kent]

Yeah guys, sorry, debates... (best when I don't participate ).

Really though, the final product of each will say it all. 👍
When Forza2 is out (may 25th?) I plan on deciding (based on store demo session) between buying a next gen system this summer or waiting another six months and letting the situation further develop.
Depending on that session I might spend the $500 and get an xbox live enabled wireless machine.
If Forza2 feels like Forza1 and the controller's joystick feels like it did in forza1, I will wait. If the joystick is changed to feel more receptive... $$$
Says it all (as bad as that is... )

Btw,
Scaff,
That's an awesome video challenge. Perfect example of how to post. 👍
Tried the challenge (knowing well it wouldn't work out) and sure enough, not even my little s.s. corolla could pull it off. Well made point by you for sure.
On that note, I believe this is the time when the focus of a game becomes the issue.
Could it be that Enthusia was a spawn of GT that got it right? Filled all the holes they saw in GT? Could the same be said for Forza1? (I bet the answer is yes for them all). At that point, the focus comes to light... Forza, Enthusia, GT, they all seem to be unique even though they are the same genre. Credit is due for all of them indeed.

 

[Dave A]

On the whole Enthusia v GT4 debate I believe both games are roughly on a par realism wise, it's jsut that where one has a flaw, the other does it right, or rather, better and vice versa. The more I'm playing Forza 2 the more tempted I am to add that into the equal bracket, but I'll wait on the final game when I can test different tracks and cars ect.

 

[dunkee]

Well as soon as my 360 comes back from repair, "red ring of death syndrome", i will definitely look you up on live!

Damn I would be so upset! Ouch and it's so close to release date..well I've heard of some quick turn around times maybe you'll get lucky. I got a Bestbuy warranty just in case that happens.

As soon as, Forza 2 isn't out yet. Unless your not getting your 360 back until next month.

On another note, I'm becomeing increasing impressed with the Forza 2 demo, now that I've got the hang of the way the brakes work wit hthe triggers and what not I'm running smooth laps in the powerful road cars like the Sagaris and Ford GT, the Ford GT understeers on sweeping bends whic can really ruin your lap if just slightly over do it then have to slow down again or go off track, the Sagaris is an absolute beast to tame and hasn't been doing much understeering at all. But I can run it smoothly pretty consistenly now wit all the driving aids off. In comparison to GT4, I'd say Forza 2 feels more like Enthusia.

That's what I realized too. The more you play the more it grows on you. Online things are going to be nuts!

LOL..i know the feeling, the GT40 is like holy ish..its such brute force kind of have to feather it around the turn and then coming out of it you give hell only to be greeting by tires that are begging for mercy..if your playing in 5.1 you can here that supercharger spinning..i will be on in 5min..



please no..no..i will pay extra monthly dues to keep them away..

Actually you can hear that supercharger on a reg tv too..but I would to love hear it in 5.1.

I'll PM you guys my gamertag so we can meet up.

 

[Tenacious D]

I think rather than paste in my post from the Forza 2 thread, I'll just link it and save a couple K of board space.

Clicky clicky!

I would have to add that complaining about what Gran Turismo will be on the PS3 is just blind prejudiced prejudging. Keep in mind that GT4 is on absolutely primitive hardware compared to both the XBox and 360, which both versions of Forza are running on. Also consider that GT4 is still so good it shows up Forza 1 in many ways.

In addition, consider that Formula 1 on the PS3 has excellent damage modelling, a physics model at least on par with the Forza demo, superb weather modelling, and 22 cars on track offline, 11 online. While in Forza 2 we get the same 8 cars and glorious sunny weather.

What form Gran Turismo 5 is going to take is anyone's guess, but I think we're all going to be flatly amazed.

 

[G.T]

Just to let you guys know, there's a comparison video between GTHD and Forza 2 here.

I still think it's totally unfair to compare an almost complete demo/game with GTHD, but I guess people cannot see that...

 

[Stevisiov]

Same here, you can't compare a game that is weeks away from release with a game that is 2 years away from release.

 

[ChadSpeed]

Here's the individual reviews fro the best Japanese game magazine. FM2 got a platinum rating scoring all 9 out of 10s.


Famitsu's Reviews Translated

Those of you curious to see what Famitsu's reviewers actually wrote, a forum member named Sugaki over at NeoGAF has kindly translated and posted each of the short reviews. Here they are in their entirety -- and of course, a special thanks to Sugaki for his translation. Cheers.

"Kamikaze" Nagata: As it stands now, the ultimate racing game. No complaints about the variety of car types offered. Can micromanage the different assists, and it's good how that impacts your race bonus. Even beginners can get into the races. A lot of features aside from Xbox Live. 9/10

Yamamoto "Benki": Career mode lets you swap cars and mod them, which is very satisfying. There's plenty of options for cars, parts and settings. In the beginning it can be intimidating since the races are more in the realm of simulation, but as in real life, you can improve the handling to get a smoother ride. It's a game that I really want to thoroughly play through. 9/10

Yoshiike Maria: You can simply pick up and play the game, or really get nitty gritty with all the intricate settings. Depending on the car, some races are a bit challenging with normal tires, but once you get over that you can enjoy driving the car for awhile. [Something about her being straightly impressed with the sounds of the tires... some letters are obscuring her review]. 9/10

Dealy Matsuo: With all the options to change assists, it has depth that can be appreciated as both a simulator and a game. No complaints about the variety of cars and car mods. Although there's no tutorial, the game is easy to play with all of the assists. Loading times before races are neither slow nor fast. 9/10


For those that may still question the physics you should visit this link. Its got a interview with on of the JGTC drivers on how insanely accurate the physics are for his actual car in FM2. So far all pro drivers that have played it with their real life cars can get very close to their real life times, very exciting, here's the link. http://forzamotorsport.net/news/pitpassreports/pitpass47.htm

 

[Scaff]

For those that may still question the physics you should visit this link. Its got a interview with on of the JGTC drivers on how insanely accurate the physics are for his actual car in FM2. So far all pro drivers that have played it with their real life cars can get very close to their real life times, very exciting, here's the link. http://forzamotorsport.net/news/pitpassreports/pitpass47.htm

To be totally fair on this point I could find you quotes that say exactly the same sort of thing about the original Forza, GT4 and Enthusia; and none of those is 100% accurate in the sim department.

It's still content that has been edited, filtered and approved by a marketing department and as such is hardly likely to say that its not accurate.

Note this is not a pop at FM2, more at the kind of testimonials, that often accompany racing/ driving sims; for me this one is on a par with the just as common 'developed using manufactures data'.

The original Forza had similar quotes from racing drivers and told of how Ferrari engineers helped to develop the tyre grip model. GT4 had all sorts of talk about how 'ring lap times had a less than 5% discrepancy between the real world and GT4. Enthusia had an throttle traces from a real car and a game car (pity those ones were different enough to prove nothing).

Always, always, always take info like this with a huge pinch of salt.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Kent]

One other thing to consider when talking about real world times is who is driving.
I doubt the super GT drivers of Japan are actually good at racing in Forza... With them matching their own real world times I would guess the online racing community will smash the real world times.

It almost worries me to think the SuperGT drivers are getting their real world times in the game. I mean, that's going to mean super fast unrealistic times at the level people like us (reffering to members of the GTP) play at.

Bottom line:
I'm going to try the demo to test the physics before I ever trust a review.
If real life race car drivers are matching their times from life in the game then gamers are going to smoke the real world times (badly).

Ideally, I would think the best Forza players in the world would match the real world times of the Super GT drivers and the GT drivers wouldn't even come close to their real world times.

 

[ChadSpeed]

One other thing to consider when talking about real world times is who is driving.
I doubt the super GT drivers of Japan are actually good at racing in Forza... With them matching their own real world times I would guess the online racing community will smash the real world times.

It almost worries me to think the SuperGT drivers are getting their real world times in the game. I mean, that's going to mean super fast unrealistic times at the level people like us (reffering to members of the GTP) play at.

Bottom line:
I'm going to try the demo to test the physics before I ever trust a review.
If real life race car drivers are matching their times from life in the game then gamers are going to smoke the real world times (badly).

Ideally, I would think the best Forza players in the world would match the real world times of the Super GT drivers and the GT drivers wouldn't even come close to their real world times.

I would think you would want the opposite. These drivers are all using M$ wheel and also setting up the cars suspension and tuning it to their liking. While we can't judge it until we get it, hearing that it is, with some laps, doable for a race driver to match his real world time seems accurate. But like Scaff said it may mean very little and you could also be right Kent, we may be able to smoke his times.

 

[uther06]

in forza the paint job on the cars still look like they're pasted on, cars don't look grounded to the earth, unlike gt4 where the paint on the cars looked really real, the shadowing and all was done really well, the tires really looked like they were pressing down on the tar

 

[Joey D]

I don't think GT is losing to the Forza series and I don't think Forza is losing to the GT series. Both series are very good and have their positive points and their negative points, but the negatives on both games do not make either one of them bad.

From the demo of FM2 I think it's going to be a great game and I can't wait to play it. I'm not looking for something overly realistic because that leads to frustration and not a fun gaming experience. If I want real life driving I will go start up my truck and actually go for a drive instead of sitting in front of my TV.

From what I've read GT5 should be a great game and it will probably make me buy a PS3, but since it's not out or even a demo of it isn't out it's really hard to say if it's better, worse, or on par...personally I think it will be on par.

 

[shawtyoner]

in forza the paint job on the cars still look like they're pasted on, cars don't look grounded to the earth, unlike gt4 where the paint on the cars looked really real, the shadowing and all was done really well, the tires really looked like they were pressing down on the tar

Thats another thing that i think PD does extremely well over its competitors, the cars look and behave like they are connected with the pavement, as opposed to other games where the cars look as if they are just gliding over the surface. The replay system is what truly shows how much more refined PD is with presentation.

 

[ChadSpeed]

Thats another thing that i think PD does extremely well over its competitors, the cars look and behave like they are connected with the pavement, as opposed to other games where the cars look as if they are just gliding over the surface. The replay system is what truly shows how much more refined PD is with presentation.

Oh you are so right about the replays. There's even a petition to have TV style replays patched into FM2. Che said that the replays will be just like the demo except that each track and it variations will have different cameras. I think there must be some power issue for them not to be able to have GT4 quality replays, theirs are the weakest part of FM2. Gotta agree about the cars looking more realistic paint wise in GT, but in the demo FM2 the cars do look like you watching Top Gear when you get the right camera angle on a replay and watch one come through a corner just on the edge of losing it. Its the sound of the car, tires and body motion that make it seem realistic.

 

[Kent]

I know most people don't care about this stuff (especially forza-only types) but there are a list of cars in GT that just aren't in Forza that I really hope Forza 2 gets right (and I hope GT5 continues with)...

I'd been watching a comparison of the Phase Euro R Accord, another Euro-R Accord, and a DC5... All tuned and being tested at Ebisu (a track I hope for in GT5) by Best Motoring.
It was a great comparison and by the end of it I was interested in going back to some good FF racing.

I went to Forza1 and to my suprise, they don't have the Euro Accord! I was shocked simply because it is such a cool car (especially compared to that Accord coupe that is so common here in the U.S.).
That was a real let down for me, I was hoping to actually visually mod a car as much as I was hoping to make it track worthy. Unfortunately it just couldn't happen since Forza1 didn't have the car.
Eventually I just went to GT4 and enjoyed the good-ness of the '02 Euro Accord.

So with that said, I really hope Forza2 expands the car list to include a few more of the great Japanese people carriers. If they do manage to add cars like the Euro Accord it will be one more positive element for Forza2.

 

[Joey D]

I don't think a lot of cars make for a good game. I would rather have a few cars that are well liked by many then a lot of cars that no one cares about. The one thing that annoyed me about GT is it had way to many little Japanese cars that weren't good for anything.

 

[97modman]

I don't think a lot of cars make for a good game. I would rather have a few cars that are well liked by many then a lot of cars that no one cares about. The one thing that annoyed me about GT is it had way to many little Japanese cars that weren't good for anything.

That is true, i mean really how many people really drove every car in the game and Forza 2 has 310 cars(NA version) other versions are including 2 or 3 more cars..In GT4 there were cars that i looked at and was like ok i wont be driving that one..I know i never think of modding an Accord even though the Euro Spec is a nice car, i think general the masses would prefer cars that they have either come in contact with or it is known and popular..
FM2 did a great job in car selection, I love porsches and they have satisfied my need there.. Also T10 is a American Co..vs. PD Japanese..its only logical that they go with cars that are more mainstream..

 

[dunkee]

It's still content that has been edited, filtered and approved by a marketing department and as such is hardly likely to say that its not accurate.

Well it is marketing..and very good marketing at that. It's coming out in japan in 3 days and they got someone who drove in jgtc to say it drives realistically..someone will bite.

They alse got the guys from Sport Compact Car mag saying good things about it.

Just got my new issue of SCC in the mail today (July 2007 issue) to find on page 24 a nice review from a "car guy's" perspective, not so much a review from a straight up gamer like we have seen everywhere already.

Much of the article is discussing how the detailed game physics were implemented, but here are a few nice things he had to say about the game...


"In the case of Microsoft's Forza 2, [its] probably the most realistic game I've experienced..."

"On familiar tracks, braking points, turning points, visual markers and quirky terrain changes are all exactly where they've been burned into my memory from the real thing..."

"I'm really contemplating selling Project Corolla for the 3 screen, 3 Xbox 360 setup. It's probably cheaper in the long run and will definately entail fewer grease-filled late nights. And it might just save me from being smoked on a track one day by some 16-year-old newbie with more virtual track time than I have real."

M$ could be paying them..or it can actually be pretty good?

I went to Forza1 and to my suprise, they don't have the Euro Accord!

Not too crazy bout that car..I'm actually glad they took a lot of the sedans out. They are though a bunch of other cars I wish they added.

 

[dunkee]

I drove with everything off but ABS since I can't adjust brake pressure, and barely pressing the pedal locks up your wheels much too easily.

I was curious to what you thought of the demo..some I agree w/ you, others I'm confused about.

For one I played Forza 1 for a couple months and I know you have said that you played for like 10 mos..the brake locking was exaggerated in it, but I got used to it and was able to eventually get decent lap times. Now in Forza 2 the locking is much more nuetral, much easier to modulate..compared to Forza 1 it's cake. Did you play Foza 1 w/out abs?

Another thing is that the tire sounds are superb, but as with Forza, they're late in complaining. With Gran Turismo, I can ride the line between traction and loss of grip almost precisely. But with Forza, the tires start complaining too late, and as such, that line is too fine a razor's edge, so I find myself taking turns cautiously.

Do you drift? Idk for better lap times I try to keep the tires as quiet as possible so I guess I never noticed. I think it's good though.

Another thing is, the cars don't seem to have consistent physics, going from understeer to oversteer almost at random. Other strange quirks: the 350Z is much too tail happy. The BMW M3 with all assists on is still a bit less manageable than the Porsce 911 with none... the hell?? While nice, the physics are a mixed bag.

This one really blew me away..I think the M3 drove awesome. It's a very stable car and a lot of ppl like driving it. I mean it isn't as new and advanced as the 911 but for what it is drives great.

The 350Z may or may not have too much oversteer..I can't decide. I drove my friend's in real life but not hard enough to know it's limits. I was in the car w/ him once and he took a turn (similar to Mugello's first turn) a little too fast and we spun out on the exit..so maybe.

I'm curious what others who have played the demo think about these cars.

I will have to say that "hood cam" is something of a joke, as it's so far forward you might as well call it bumpercam 2. You can't even see the Ferrari's hood. WHY did they change it from earlier iterations?! GAH... They need to add an option for a roof cam, or even a driver cam you can position and set drift parameters on.

I like the hood cam?! I wouldn't want to drive on the roof..maybe for replay. It was much better than GT4's attempt.

I will have to say that after a week of racing, Forza 2 is making me even more hungry for a PS3 and GT HD. It seems that Polyphony still has the edge in delivering a tangible driving experience.

You are hungry cause PD is not feeding anyone any info! Thank goodness I have Forza 2 to hold me over until the next big thing.

BTW did you get the "zephyr" or reg 360?

 

[Scaff]

You are hungry cause PD is not feeding anyone any info! Thank goodness I have Forza 2 to hold me over until the next big thing.

Dunno 100% about that, after all T10 feed more info out because FM2 is just about to be released, and I could counter with just how long we have had GT:HD out in comparison to the FM2 demo. Additionally we do now have word from PD (admittedly through an interview rather than directly) that we will get interior views in GT5.

Still must admit that I wouldn't mind FM2 to tide me over, but I'm not buying a 360 just to do that (not after buying an Xbox just for FM), so I will make do with F1:CE and anything else that come our way.


Regards

Scaff

 

[dunkee]

I saw that. It does look damn nice. Wish the quality of the vid was better.

 

[Kent]

I don't get why you guys would put down on the Accord Euro-R and talk about how Forza got things right by leaving out cars.

Don't get me wrong, I am sure you can find me on record here at the GTP saying "down with the crap little cars" but that has little to nothing to do with the Euro-R.
Have any of you driven that car in GT4? Ask and answer that for yourself before you knock on the car as if it were a daihatsu with 60hp.

In my opinion, GT4 definately had too many crappy cars but the Euro Accord wasn't one of them.
Furthermore, when Forza includes the 2-door v6 Accord from here in the states it is a total let down in comparison to the Euro-R.
Little comparison of the 2-door U.S. Accord Coupe and the Euro-R '02 Accord...
Coupe: V6 sohc, 240hp @ 6250rpm, 1481kg
Euro-R: I-4 dohc, 216hp @ 8000rpm, 1390kg

I'd much rather tune the Euro-R than the coupe.

Also, beyond that, I think many here can be overly critical when it comes to this issue (having too many cars) when comparing FM1 and GT4 because of the fact that Forza did the same thing (just not to the same extent).

Look at the Honda-Acura line in Forza and you'll start to see duplicate NSXs, Integras, and even a multitude of tuners that could all be built using the in-game mods.

Bottom line: I'd rather have 20 extra cars I don't care for than have 1 car I really want missing from the game.
No one will force you to play with the cars you hate but at the same time, no one can put a missing car into the game for you either.

I'm not saying I'm OK with so many bad cars in GT... I'm saying that I'm not OK with skipping out on great cars in Forza.

So like I said earlier, I really hope Forza2 gets that sort of thing right.

 

[Joey D]

Well since Forza makers are based out of America they probably saw no reason to put in the Euro Accord. Just like PD left out a ton of great American cars and truck, and got a few of them wrong (like the colors on the GTO ).

 

[Kent]

Oh, I certainly agree that PD could have done better in areas.
However, that's no excuse for leaving out cars like the Euro-R.
That's especially true when they keep cars like the Accord Coupe (not that I don't like them in real life but in the game it's no contest). Just think of it in reverse... Is being Japanese any excuse for leaving out good American cars?

Here's a little something I dug up... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnWKA1U_0nM
Spoon Tuned Euro Accord R. 👍
(tested by hattori on the "new" fuji)
(originally I was looking for the "Best Motoring KA20 Tuner Battle" that made me want to tune an Accord in Forza1... Didn't find it though )

That said, I was just disappointed, that's all.
No big deal, I'm just hoping that include stuff like that in the next Forza. Should they decide an 8000rpm type-r with less weight than the coupe accord not be worthy of FM2 then I suppose it's one place where FM2 will not be perfect.

I mean, I like the Accord R. Like it in Best Motoring segments, like it in GT4, and I hope to like it in FM2. 👍
(of course, I'm sure I will like it in GT5 as well )

 

[Joey D]

You must also remember there will be DLC for Forza so if enough people ask you might see certain cars popping up.

 

[dunkee]

I liked the Amuse S2000's..well anything by Amuse. You can still make do w/ what you got though. Just gotta put effort in customizing. I've seen some cool stuff come out..w/ auction house it's gonna open the gates. They explained that it's hard to include some cars cause each manufacturer has different preferences. I'm sure they could have added the Euro R..I certainly would have prefered it than that PT Cruiser I don't think GT5 will have a crap load of cars this time around..it'll prob be the same amount as GT3.

 

[Dave A]

Not too crazy bout that car..I'm actually glad they took a lot of the sedans out. They are though a bunch of other cars I wish they added.

Personally, in games like Gran Turismo and Forza I prefer the lower and mid end cars to the supercars, there's only so much further you can tune and tweak a supercar, the real joy for me is turning a regular road car into a race car of supercar proportions. ofcourse, Forza has plenty of mid level cars, but not that many lower end cars, which considering Forza 2 hs both engine and drivetrain swaps is a shame imo. Still plenty of cars I want to tune the hell out of though.