Does a bunch of races justify being called a career?

[GTP_Jonjig]

The physics were barely different.

Disagree, in 3 not only did you have to turn the aids off on every car, you had to make sure the aids were off in the options too, just to make it feel anything like as good as 2.. I remember (vividly, unfortunately ).
3 was all about graphics because of the ps2, Sony showing us the greatness of the then "next gen" console.. just like most games, sparkly new graphics was prioritized over game play..

so you're telling me they didn't change the physics when they changed platform from PS1 to PS2 ? that's more crazy talk!

 

[Johnnypenso]

As @VBR said, there is no racing in GT, just time trials with moving pylons or words to that effect. No racing = no career mode. Nerfing cars to the point where they turn similar lap times to the bots isn't racing. They are faster than you in the straights and you blow by them in the corners, again, not racing.

A good question to ask is, is GT's "career mode" in GT6 any better than it was in GT 1/2?

 

[BWX]

No, I just wanted you to man up and insult people without standing behind me..




Your crazy..
People bought Gt1 because it was revolutionary, Gt2 because it was the sequel to a revolutionary game,
Gt3 was a terrible game, all about the graphics , physics were rubbish compared to 2, the career mode was awful, 5 levels of the same races just with increases in laps..
Gt4 was when they started getting it right again..

For me you can ditch career mode, IMO there is no skill to it, how do you learn good race-craft racing AI? the only way I get a half decent race in career mode is to race with 100pp less and worse tyres than the AI, and I still just out brake them into corners to win, easily..

I'd like to call it a training mode but Career mode isn't even that, forced aids in licences and challenges, you have to undo your learning once you've completed it..

I don't want an exclusive online Gt game, but the online part of the game (not just multiplayer) IMO is head and shoulders above the offline content.. rant over.

Your crazy? My crazy what? My crazy cat?

You mean Your're crazy? Ohhhh... Well.. facts back me up.. Your crazy rants are hollow.

GT1 to GT4 sold way better than latest GT games and they had no online mode, only well thought out, and long, and somewhat challenging career modes. Now in the latest GTs, the career modes have gone to s..t.

The way it is now career mode takes no skill because it is watered down for noobs with no skill. Saying it should be ditched because it sucks is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Career shouldn't be thrown out, it should be fixed. That's the entire point. GT's online is not good enough to carry the rest of the game, so saying career should be thrown out, you mighty as well just throw out GT altogether. Not many would buy it is it only had online multiplayer.

 

[Tornado]

Disagree, in 3 not only did you have to turn the aids off on every car, you had to make sure the aids were off in the options too, just to make it feel anything like as good as 2..

So if you turned off the driving aids that GT3 had that GT2 didn't have, it made GT3 feel similar to GT2.

so you're telling me they didn't change the physics when they changed platform from PS1 to PS2 ? that's more crazy talk!

Yes, I am:

This is the first major refinement we have made to the car physics in GT since GT1

Linky.

GT2000 was even more obviously similar, too.




To say nothing about how often they made such as big of a deal about GT4's all new engine as they did for GT5 and GT6 (that fancy strategy guide thing they released alongside the game went into more detail about it as well if I recall correctly).

 

[Squanto]

Let's face it, this game is a piece of crap! I've never beaten a GT game 100% in my life and I've been playing since GT1. That is until GT6 came along. I've beaten GT6 100% completed and it's only a little bit over a month old. That's ridiculous! GT5 is over 3 years old and I still have not finished everything in that one. I have no reason to buy a 2 million dollar formula gt because there is no formula gt championship race. What's the deal? The career races were boring and the only one I found interesting was the rainmasters.

I've played them GT1-GT4 to 100% GT5 99% ... the game is not bad ... it's just that the challenges are gone ... and you have to make them yourself ... S5 for me was the hardest to achieve ,,, sad but true

 

[ShiftingGears]

A good question to ask is, is GT's "career mode" in GT6 any better than it was in GT 1/2?

I thought GT2 was the best GT in terms of a career mode. The UI wasn't the most efficient, and there weren't proper restrictions on the events, but the layout was good. It had a GT League mode which showed some progression from National> Regional> World Championships. This section was light on content, but I think they had the right idea. Then Special Events had the miscellaneous events that did not fit into any obvious career progression - then manufacturer races were separate from that again. I thought it was a good structure that they should've stuck with. Separating events into Beginner, Amateur and Professional is really arcade, especially when the only difference between a Beginner and an Amateur event is how fast or expensive the required vehicles are. So it is a shame that like many aspects of GT showing great potential like the GT2 Career layout, it was simply not developed further at all.

 

[skazz]

I don't find Forza's bots to be very reasonable.

Let me stress that while I like the finicky physics of PC sims, I really don't think they're all that better than what we have in Forza 4 and GT6, which are incredibly advanced, both of them. In fact, I've witnessed car dynamic behavior in Forza 4 that I've only seen among sims in Live For Speed. F4 and GT6 aren't perfect, but they're amazingly close...

Forza's AI is not very aware of your presence, but at least you can get close racing out of them and they don't pile up at the first corner. In a generally poor field, Forza manages to achieve above the mediocre average

If we bring some other comparisons: NFS Shift had crazy aggressive AI which was not pleasant to race against. In terms of PC sims, Simbin's GTR2 or Race07 AI is very decent, very configurable, decently aware of your presence and not frustrating to drive against... however it was also overly polite and made very few mistakes so it was bland as a result as you say. Codemasters tend to produce reasonable AI which isn't afraid of contact but also doesn't tend to smash you off the track unless you do something stupid, however outside of F1 games they never have long enough races to really see what it can do. AC's AI is just getting started but already they are making mistakes, lunging, getting in a mess at the first corner but they are plenty fast enough to be a big challenge while offering the feel of being more "human" than the average AI bot.

On the subject of physics: PC sims are finally leaving behind the whole "driving on ice" "sim racing should be difficult/challenging" crap championed by iRacing and rFactor. Assetto Corsa is getting huge praise for offering physics which actually depict cars as inherently stable at lower speeds and only getting challenging to keep on the road at the absolute limit. As a result many cars feel as comfortable to drive as you'd find them in GT or Forza. (although I'd argue that Forza defaults all cars to being unrealistically oversteery, possibly due to offering too little grip on cold tyres, and Forza 4's sim steering appears to be an attempt to appeal to the ice racing community). pCARS is getting their tyre model together as well, starting to approach the same kind of experience as AC.

 

[gnorman]

just like most games, sparkly new graphics was prioritized over game play

Herein lies the problem. The people want shiny sparkles and whizz-bang-boom wowness, not long term playability. The games industry supplies it because it looks better in videos and on the shop floor so it boosts sales. 5 days later it is boring and average game player moves on to the next thing, rinse and repeat. What a shallow world we live in.

Just look at the top suggestions in the features, it is the same as the recent poll questions to US project manager blokey. Whilst these are the most popular things, only the event creator gives any additional depth to the game, the livery editor and sounds are superficial and won't make the game play any better (though there are a few people of the community that will only spend their time in the livery editor). They won't be implemented to the liking of the majority anyway, it is a repeat of the I Want Damage furore of a few versions ago.

That isn't to say that they won't be welcome improvements, but they aren't the be-all and end-all as is suggested by the voting, and GT will not be a better game until the core gameplay is given more thought.

 

[Johnnypenso]

3 was all about graphics because of the ps2, Sony showing us the greatness of the then "next gen" console.. just like most games, sparkly new graphics was prioritized over game play..

Absolute truth there:tup:. It's sad though, because there are plenty of resources available to ensure that all types of players can be satisfied, from casual players interested in watching the stars to hardcore sim racers only interested in online racing human vs. human. Assuming they iron out the bugs with tires, MR physics, camber etc., most of the changes are structural. If you added a "length of race" slider to career mode for example, we could tailor the length of races to suit our personal interest. If we like a race or series we add laps, if we are very casual and just want to get through it, we use the low, default settings. A 24 minute enduro becomes 2 hours with the push of a button. Applying a more logical, well though out structure to career mode would completely change it's character for relatively little effort.

These things are so easy to do with little extra effort if done from the design phase but PD is stuck in 1998 mode, thinking whatever they throw out will be good enough and the fans will keep buying no matter what.

 

[GTP_Jonjig]

So if you turned off the driving aids that GT3 had that GT2 didn't have, it made GT3 feel similar to GT2.



Yes, I am:


Linky.

GT2000 was even more obviously similar, too.




To say nothing about how often they made such as big of a deal about GT4's all new engine as they did for GT5 and GT6 (that fancy strategy guide thing they released alongside the game went into more detail about it as well if I recall correctly).

Found my own link thanks;
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CEwQFjAH&url=http://www.granturismo-3.com/&ei=omzeUqrbE8qO7QbFjIH4Cg&usg=AFQjCNHkxWvMmOuwacfrKqD0if2EEXZU0A

Gran turismo 3
Kaz commented, "The enhancements the new hardware made possible, from the outside, are the overwhelming improvements made in the graphics and sound. Looking from the inside, there are the high levels of calculating speed and power, which lead to the real and smooth drive feel."

Seems to look like they did!
@BWX
And yes, these sales figures.. If you remember, when Gt1 came out, it had no competition, it was the best thing ever, no other game was like it in anyway, ground breaking. So using sales figures is daft, of course it sold a shed load, what else did we have to buy? Toca was good but limited, Colin Mcrae again limited, NFS arcade rubbish, Gt had it all.. people bought the sequels based on the fact its proved itself as an innovating series..

The "if you remember" bit is a joke, of course you don't,

 

[Awong124]

NFS Shift had crazy aggressive AI which was not pleasant to race against.

They only got crazy when you reached Tier 4. Before that, they were quite clean and fun to race against. When I got to Tier 4 it was like they were trying to kill me all of a sudden.

 

[BWX]

Example of AI that would make GT career a LOT better.

 

[fredyellowone]

@gnorman

We call it a career mode. But that's not a career mode. That's a bunch of bland, boring, and useless single player races, tied up with some glue. (licenses.)

 

[lazywolfe]

To answer the thread question: No, it doesn't.

I also think most people probably don't care, if you go by the sales numbers (seem to be decent so far) and by the majority of responses I read on these forums.

Anyone wanting a career mode (myself included) probably needs to look elsewhere. I seriously doubt it will happen in the next GT or any GT. It's just not PD's focus. *shrug*

 

[fredyellowone]

To answer the thread question: No, it doesn't.

I also think most people probably don't care, if you go by the sales numbers (seem to be decent so far) and by the majority of responses I read on these forums.

Anyone wanting a career mode (myself included) probably needs to look elsewhere. I seriously doubt it will happen in the next GT or any GT. It's just not PD's focus. *shrug*

Sale numbers are actually incredibly low. They are at 25% of what GT5 did in the same amount of time.

 

[NCRthree]

I refer to it as "career" out of convenience. It's a progression through ever increasing speed of vehicle classes.

Is it a challenging career? Well that's a whole different can o' worms.

 

[xiando]

Nope. it's a game. You cant make a career of a game unless you produce it, sell it, make money off reporting on it, or invest in the company that does. The "career mode" is simply a game term for a portion of the content in which you do orchestrated racing events for game cash and a few prizes. Nothing to get hung about.

And as someone suggested (correctly in my case anyway), frankly I don't' really care. I bought the game for fun, not to be constantly challenged as if real life. I get plenty of challenge from my other non-work pursuits and my Bread and butter work as an engineer and programmer. If you have to rely on a game for challenge, imo there's something seriously wrong with your life and it's probably time for you to put down the toys..

 

[C_Raccoon23]

And as someone suggested (correctly in my case anyway), frankly I don't' really care. I bought the game for fun, not to be constantly challenged as if real life. I get plenty of challenge from my other non-work pursuits and my Bread and butter work as an engineer and programmer. If you have to rely on a game for challenge, imo there's something seriously wrong with your life and it's probably time for you to put down the toys..

Wow. You took what people mean by challange way out of context. We just don't want a game that's too easy, or otherwise it won't be fun.

 

[xiando]

Wow. You took what people mean by challenge way out of context. We just don't want a game that's too easy, or otherwise it won't be fun.

No, I really didn't. I've read hundreds and hundreds of posts here and elsewhere abotu what challenge is and how we should play. I mean that I don't need (or want) to be forced into someone else's idea of what challenge is or what the term "we" means, beyond that of the peopl with whom I made the financial deal in the first place. GTP's forum members combined are a drop in the bucket of GT players worldwide. In fact all the major forums put together are still unrepresentative of the playerbase at large, statistically speaking. We folk who participate in these forums are simply vocal and visible.

So far over the past three years, what I've read has taught me that the basic gist of the "Greater Army of the Challenge" is
a) I have to do time trials with all assists off.
b) I have to use no more than sports hards comfort soft (in most cases)
c) I cannot tune my cars
d) I must use cockpit mode.
e) comply without argument to any and all codesils applied after the fact by any member of the GAC and seconded by any other GAC member

Otherwise I'm called a a poser, a hack, a loser, a wannabee, a child, etc, etc. I may not be a racecar driver, but I have enough brain cells to recognize a control game when I see it. I generally speak for myself, without playing the "we" card as if for provenance and some badge of numbers power, and as I said, I bought this game for fun, not for a third job.

 

[lazywolfe]

.

 

[ShiftingGears]

If you have to rely on a game for challenge, imo there's something seriously wrong with your life and it's probably time for you to put down the toys..

This is rubbish. Part of the appeal of video games is that they do challenge the player. Think of Tetris and Pacman as two examples.

No, I really didn't. I've read hundreds and hundreds of posts here and elsewhere abotu what challenge is and how we should play. I mean that I don't need (or want) to be forced into someone else's idea of what challenge is or what the term "we" means, beyond that of the peopl with whom I made the financial deal in the first place. GTP's forum members combined are a drop in the bucket of GT players worldwide. In fact all the major forums put together are still unrepresentative of the playerbase at large, statistically speaking. We folk who participate in these forums are simply vocal and visible.

So far over the past three years, what I've read has taught me that the basic gist of the "Greater Army of the Challenge" is
a) I have to do time trials with all assists off.
b) I have to use no more than sports hards comfort soft (in most cases)
c) I cannot tune my cars
d) I must use cockpit mode.
e) comply without argument to any and all codesils applied after the fact by any member of the GAC and seconded by any other GAC member

Otherwise I'm called a a poser, a hack, a loser, a wannabee, a child, etc, etc. I may not be a racecar driver, but I have enough brain cells to recognize a control game when I see it. I generally speak for myself, without playing the "we" card as if for provenance and some badge of numbers power, and as I said, I bought this game for fun, not for a third job.

It is a simple fix in theory with decent and realistic AI from the top down, and incorporating a difficulty slider for those less skilled at the game. So that way it is challenging for everybody.

 

[xiando]

Not rubbish at all. IF you have to rely on a game for challenge, then there IS something seriously wrong with your life and it's probably time to put down the toys.

 

[GTP_Jonjig]

Not rubbish at all. IF you have to rely on a game for challenge, then there IS something seriously wrong with your life and it's probably time to put down the toys.

I not only rely on it, I want a challenge from a game.. a game that offers no challenge and does is it all for you is called a film..

something seriously wrong in my life ? I think not.

 

[xiando]

Then you must have a pretty lazy life. I have plenty of challenge outside this $60 game and don't rely on any game to provide me with challenge. If I choose to be challenged that's one thing. But to have a tiny subset of players dictate to me what that challenge is, isn't gonna fly. My guess? Both PD and Sony will back me on that one.

 

[GTP_Jonjig]

Then you must have a pretty lazy life.

You could say that ..

I guess I'm not worthy to comment, sorry ..

 

[Johnnypenso]

And as someone suggested (correctly in my case anyway), frankly I don't' really care. I bought the game for fun, not to be constantly challenged as if real life. I get plenty of challenge from my other non-work pursuits and my Bread and butter work as an engineer and programmer. If you have to rely on a game for challenge, imo there's something seriously wrong with your life and it's probably time for you to put down the toys..

You bought the game for fun, but if someone else bought it to, oh say, I don't know, race and be challenged in a race, then there is something wrong with their life and they have to put the game away. Stick to engineering and programming because you sure don't know anything about videogames and why people play them.

 

[Tornado]

I get that "It's time for you to put down the toys" is supposed to be some sort of vague insult thrown out to get around actually having to defend the statement, but I'm honestly not sure what it really means beyond that.

 

[fredyellowone]

You could say that ..

I guess I'm not worthy to comment, sorry ..

You should leave that guy alone. He is the biggest fanboy on here.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Not rubbish at all. IF you have to rely on a game for challenge, then there IS something seriously wrong with your life and it's probably time to put down the toys.

I have fun when I am challenged playing video games. As are most people, depending on the degree of difficulty. Don't like it?

 

[Squanto]

Hmmm ... very constructive thoughts .. can we get this thread back on track?

We know PD wants to deliver to both types of players : GT-mode and Arcade ...

So can't we just try to enhance the efforts of Tenacious-D and other posters to make some kind of blueprint for a career mode ....
I think we should leave A-spec as it is ... a nice overview of all races gradually inclining in difficulty and duration so "freshman" can enter it as it is ... and people who are happy with it ... stay happy with it

B-Spec is already in the works ...

Earlier someone dropped the name C-Spec ... this could do the job very well ..
Also I think with providing a C-Spec ... based on current events and tracks ... this could well be built as an update for a future release... the more effort we put in to it .. the more it will provide food for thought for all of us ... and let's hope someone from PD eventually ... we all know they do listen ...

maybe i'll work something out in an Excel sheet ... if enough input is delivered and people take the effort to review ...

ByTheWay ... I just try to lift the OP to an answer which will show our ideas/needs/dreams about a proper Career mode for GT and make the "bunch of races" challenging again ...

First maybe give an opinion on a start point ... we have to start somewhere ...

Championship: a series of events based on championships in both GT Life and the other Sim Mode sections.

Season: this is a full racing season in a league of your choice, with its own special events and a calendar to follow, though the calendar is purely for you to sense the progression through the racing season.

GT Academy/Career Mode: this is my dream game.

This mode tracks a more realistic path than GT Mode, from the beginning steps of a race car driver to the professional leagues of your choice, rather like Nissan's GT Academy. The point here isn't to grind races for prize money and cars, but to live out the dream of a Lucas Ordonez by migrating up the foodchain of low to pro level racing leagues. You'll have one car per league, perhaps two, but this is serious racing now, for points, cash, sponsors, and the right to enter the racing league of your choice.

Each level is a "racing season," each one longer and more challenging, in which you try to win the Championship. If you chose, rather than progress, you may stay within your current level and try to better your performance. Moving to the higher levels puts you in more powerful race cars, until you win the rights to enter the pro racing league of your choice.

Beginning

• Start in Kart racing for a brief season of a certain number of races, say six to eight. Based on your standings at the end of the "season," you are awarded a credit prize to purchase a sports car, new or used. Used cars will be cheaper, but can include modifications, though will also be worn down to one extent or other.
• License Test. Meet the qualifications to enter the enthusiast league like America's SCCA.
• Enter races (possible entry fee). Use prize money won to upgrade and maintain the car. Courses are rather simple, bots are competitive but beatable with a reasonable effort. Good performance attracts sponsors, better sponsors pay more, and provide support. Paint/livery optional, but decals will be mandatory at this point.
• The "Bush" League at this level is loose with regulations, but there are certain rules, and care must be taken or you can be disqualified. You must complete a certain number of races and garner points for the championship in order to progress to the next level.
• If you so choose, you may do as many stints in this level of racing, winning as many championships as you want.

Semi-Pro Class (SCCA)

• License Test and qualify.
• Buy a race car appropriate to the class of racing you choose. Select a livery and apply decals, your name, national flag, racing plate and your number.
• Classes run from a scale like Forza's E through B. E Class will be like the Miata Cup, B Class will be Vipers, Corvettes and Ferraris. In-between will be hot-hatches such as the VW GTI or Honda Civic, sports sedans such as the WRX, sports cars such as the Supra and Mustang, higher performance sedans such as BMW and Mercedes, and so on. You'll have to meet the class restrictions for your car.
• Coming from the beginner league, the most likely range you'll be able to afford will be in the E or D Class, but if you did well, B Class can be yours. D Class will offer higher rewards but be more challenging, and require more expense to maintain, C and B Class even more so. You'll have a mechanic and crew, possibly with the option to spend some of your own money to hire a better group. This option would give you better pit performance and slightly cheaper maintenance cost. Better performance means the interest of a few more and more supportive sponsors.
• The different classes of racing will have their own level of challenge from both the bots and the cars. The "season" of E, D, C and B Class will be the same, and the tracks the same, but this one will be a little longer. You'll have to hone your skills well and stay sharp to progress to A and X Class and run with the big dogs. But once again, you can choose to remain at this level for as many championships as you want.

Professional Class (SCCA)

• Once again, License Test and qualify.
• The cars in A and X Class racing are serious racing machines and will cost a lot more. You know the drill by now, race well, collect points through good finishes or victories, and be successful if you want to keep your sponsors happy, and win the championship. There is a much longer series of races this time, but the prizes are much larger, and your sponsorships more valuable. This is hard work but very rewarding, and you could choose to remain here and live out the rest of your racing career if you so desire, winning championships till you decide to quit or retire. But by now, you're primed and ready for the serious professional leagues of the world.

Professional Racing Leagues

• Yep, License Test and qualify. Normally, you would first choose a league, but if you want to, you can test for as many as you like. Choose from WRC, BTCC, E/WTCC, FIA GT, ALMS, Super GT, DTM, Formula GT, whatever GT6 provides.
• Do the racing. This is for a real season now, and runs through many months. At the end of it, if you do well (or choose), you can opt to migrate to another league, after an appropriate license test, unless you already passed the test earlier. Or you can continue in this league if it suits you for as many seasons as you want, racking up a case full of trophies.

Please try to give useful feedback and draw up requirements for well balanced progression ... the more I think about it the harder it becomes ... and I'm beginning to see how hard it is to make a good career mode ...

requirements which we should address:
- number of rounds
- number of races
- number of seasons
- regions in which races will be held .. (i remember schwarzwald from GT2/4)
- because we have to name events and seasons properly
- reference times for rounds per circuit/track
- car classes
- entry criteria for cars
- tuning criteria
- licensing separate from current licensing perhaps ? (evolving from the special events in GT5?)
- pit-stop criteria
- tires strategy or criteria
- what can be done in a pitstop?
- will we progress in this career totally offline
- personally i think leader boards should be based on fixed requirements for entry "time trial like"
- this list will get bigger ... i know


(if you think its a useless effort ... feel free to ignore this initiative ... and move on to the next thread)