Does using a clutch pedal make you quicker?

  • Thread starter VeeDoubleU
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VeeDoubleU
It is where you have your foot diagonal over the pedals, with toes on brake pedal, and heel on the throttle, and as you are braking and downshifting, you can slightly go on the throttle using your heel to 'blip' the throttle and keep up the revs (I think) and allow for better downshifting.
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It's the only effective way to rev match under braking in a manual.
 
the blip of the throttle on downshifts is 2 fold. (at least in real life).
1. rev matching to aide against synchro wear... ehn...
2. ensure the rev match cancels out/negates any unwanted engine braking... which has a tendency to make the car unstable... to the point of swapping ends... #2 is the real reason for it.
 
Nuschel01
If you stay on the throttle with a car that has the stock H-pattern gearbox you'll always have a weird rev-bounce, try it out. Downshifting isn't affected as you're braking
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But you also get 'engine braking' too surely? Heel toe is gangster its up there with scandinavian flicks lol proper old school rally/racing tricks :cheers:
 
yes, you get engine braking, but what you are mitigating is the sudden rpm difference (and resultant sudden tire to road speed differential) that causes the axle tramp and snap spin... the game does this perfectly, otherwise you would see many folks speeding off backwards into the weeds on corner entry.
watch any replay of the faster guys (or even slower guys like myself) and you'll see them downshifting while braking and turning in hard... in the real world any mismatched rpm match/clutch engagement will have you looking in the review mirror to see where you are headed.

In today's televised motorsports most everything is sequential shift with computer controlled rev matching, but, if you really want to see how critical this is watch NASCAR when they run a road course...
no electronic rev matching... clutch activated only by cable/pedal/foot/brain... throttle activated only by a rod/pedal/foot... faceplated (aka no schrynco's) and straight cut transmission, no traction control, no abs...
These guys need to be perfect every time... and you'll see lots of what happens when they get it just a little wrong.
 
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cleanLX
yes, you get engine braking, but what you are mitigating is the sudden rpm difference (and resultant sudden tire to road speed differential) that causes the axle tramp and snap spin... the game does this perfectly, otherwise you would see many folks speeding off backwards into the weeds on corner entry.
watch any replay of the faster guys (or even slower guys like myself) and you'll see them downshifting while braking and turning in hard... in the real world any mismatched rpm match/clutch engagement will have you looking in the review mirror to see where you are headed.

In today's televised motorsports most everything is sequential shift with computer controlled rev matching, but, if you really want to see how critical this is watch NASCAR when they run a road course... no electronic rev matching, clutch activated only buy a cable/pedal/foot throttle only by a rod/pedal/foot, faceplated/straight cut transmission, no traction control, no abs...
These guys need to be perfect every time... and you'll see lots of what happens when they get it just a little wrong.
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You hear some players' cars bouncing off the rev limiter under braking entering corners, there is no doubt they would back into the wall IRL. :cheers:
Gotta love when they show the foot camera in NASCAR road acing. I think NASCAR has gotta be the last commonly televised series not using sequential boxes.
 
fastone371
You hear some players' cars bouncing off the rev limiter under braking entering corners, there is no doubt they would back into the wall IRL. :cheers:
Gotta love when they show the foot camera in NASCAR road acing. I think NASCAR has gotta be the last commonly televised series not using sequential boxes.
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Yep, and even in the lower class SCCA and whatnot they have computer controlled rev matching... cripe, even my beloved knuckle dragging Ford/Chev have rev matched downshifts in the road cars now...
Even still, you watch any sportscar racing (Gt3 Gt4) and rarely do they downshift while turning-in hard... I know I get away with downshifts in the game that would kill me in real life.
 
cleanLX
yes, you get engine braking, but what you are mitigating is the sudden rpm difference (and resultant sudden tire to road speed differential) that causes the axle tramp and snap spin... the game does this perfectly, otherwise you would see many folks speeding off backwards into the weeds on corner entry.
watch any replay of the faster guys (or even slower guys like myself) and you'll see them downshifting while braking and turning in hard... in the real world any mismatched rpm match/clutch engagement will have you looking in the review mirror to see where you are headed.

In today's televised motorsports most everything is sequential shift with computer controlled rev matching, but, if you really want to see how critical this is watch NASCAR when they run a road course...
no electronic rev matching... clutch activated only by cable/pedal/foot/brain... throttle activated only by a rod/pedal/foot... faceplated (aka no schrynco's) and straight cut transmission, no traction control, no abs...
These guys need to be perfect every time... and you'll see lots of what happens when they get it just a little wrong.
Click to expand...
While reading this I was reminded of Senna's qualifying on Monaco
That stuff is crazy! Especially when he was about to approach the chicane after the tunnel. He went from 5th to 1st in less than a second! And all with manual heel-and-toe! Imagine how fast that was :eek:
 
You can simulate clutch-shifting by simply upshifting via paddle while simultaneously lifting off the throttle just enough for the revs to fall into the next gear without the annoying bounce that occurs by not lifting. I would love to know how many tenths of a second I'm leaving on the table in my time trials by keeping the accelerator floored during upshifts. I'd assume not many.
 
cleanLX
you can list all the top sports car drivers of all time... but no one heel-toe'd and left footed like the old school group B gents.
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That's not just heel-and-toe...
That's ballet! Graceful :bowdown: I can only dream to do the same one day... Especially that now more and more cars are losing manual options :guilty:
 
cleanLX
you can list all the top sports car drivers of all time... but no one heel-toe'd and left footed like the old school group B gents.
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This is crazy impressive!

Actually I am referring to those audiences. Some just run off the track 0.1s before the car arrived. Some sit in blind corners just hoping the car do not hit him.
 
VeeDoubleU
I use a DS4, hence I do not have a clutch pedal, and I do not lift off the throttle when upshifting.

I notice, especially in the BMW E30, that I lose a lot of time relative to others when we upshift. I also have sometimes noticed another driver lifting off the throttle while upshifting (in a replay) and not losing speed when upshifting.

I haven't noticed this much in other cars. I notice it in some road cars, but not at all in Gr cars.

If having a clutch and using it makes you quicker, am I able to simulate that by lifting off the throttle (fully? 50%?) while upshifting so I don't personally lose so much time.
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That's GTS problem. Using wheel is absolutely much faster. Participating its esport, wheel is a must. Though I guess since the first time GTS is built based on wheel use.
 
Walter Röhrl - and others at that times driving turbo engines - had a completely different reason to use heel-toe, and other magic. The turbo lag. You were slow if you let the revs go down and lost turbo pressure. They needed engine revs even while decelerating, to maintain revs, thus pressure for the exit and the proper acceleration. (Later on, that was helped by the ALS systems. That's why the Mitsubishi Evos are pinking and banging while liftoffs - to keep it simple.)

Edit: for the youngsters: the turbo is driven by the exhaust gases. Throttle makes these gases :D
 
TamasToth
Walter Röhrl - and others at that times driving turbo engines - had a completely different reason to use heel-toe, and other magic. The turbo lag. You were slow if you let the revs go down and lost turbo pressure. They needed engine revs even while decelerating, to maintain revs, thus pressure for the exit and the proper acceleration. (Later on, that was helped by the ALS systems. That's why the Mitsubishi Evos are pinking and banging while liftoffs - to keep it simple.)

Edit: for the youngsters: the turbo is driven by the exhaust gases. Throttle makes these gases :D
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yep rev's, and like you noted pressure, aka load... which is why you see them on the gas while braking... crazy stuff with those cars back in the day.
With the turbo motor you can have rev's without load, for instance off throttle... and, todays drag race cars on the starting line will have rev's, but need load as well... there is a term for it which escapes me, but watch a turbo car "bump in' to the staging beams and they are under great load (whole car lurches/jumps) to keep that pressure up.

Lord Protector
so get an old car like I did :lol: I have bought an old RX-8 just so I can stiff it up and drift it til the motor goes to hell! :D
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Funny... I still think the RX8's are "new"... :).
 
Rotarys are amazing I love my rx7. Heel and toe is the only way to drive. Who needs a clutch when rev matching is also a option shame not on gts. Drove a few car with no clutch including my rx7 did about 150 miles without a clutch. Just start it in gear and off you go.
Might dig out my shifter and see how the times look
 
Reason you see some people using clutch/manual shifting is because you can change gear MUCH faster in cars that have a 'slow' gear change - I noticed TRL_Lightning was using this at Tsukuba in the M3 yesterday.

Works in cars that have a 'proper' manual 'box standard, rather than sequential/dual clutch... so doesn't work on the majority of race cars.

If you upgrade to custom gearbox you lose the clutch advantage as gear change time decreases significantly.
 
mk1xr2
Rotarys are amazing I love my rx7. Heel and toe is the only way to drive. Who needs a clutch when rev matching is also a option shame not on gts. Drove a few car with no clutch including my rx7 did about 150 miles without a clutch. Just start it in gear and off you go.
Might dig out my shifter and see how the times look
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Love the RX7's... never owned one but had access to an '84 GSL-SE with the 13B... Goodness I loved that thing.
Rev match, yep... fun... lost the clutch in my Jeep out rock crawling... had to drive the rest of the "trail" and all the way home w/o clutch, then, could not get it repaired until the following week... Drove it to work and back (big city traffic) for 7-8 (don't recall exactly) days... Funny how in that short a time it became second nature and when I got it back it was "almost" a disappointment.

Lord Protector
well mine is a 2003 one so it's pretty old, isn't it?
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LOL! I've got a '92 Mustang, and do not consider it old... now my '69 F250... with carb, manual choke, points, mechanical fuel pump, high beams switch on the floor... and the gas tank behind the seat in the cab... that was old. :).
 
mk1xr2
Who needs a clutch when rev matching is also a option shame not on gts.
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No clutch Joey... love the throttle blip...

and, depending on the type of corner entry, sometimes there's the no clutch, sometimes the heel toe...
Mr Rudd from back in the day...


notice how the play with the brake mid corner, and, how they tickle the throttle on exit...
850 nasty naaturally aspirated small cu.in. horsepower being sent through tiny 10" tires...
And people think NASCAR drivers "can't drive"... Not saying they are the best in the world, but to dismiss their talent is rather "narrow".
watch
 
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I know people have had a whinge about the handling of the E30, but it is that seemingly endless gearshift and the rev-black-hole that accompanies it that I'm not a fan of! Hadn't considered an in game clutch would affect that.

I wonder if PD could implement a DS4 clutch that works as follows; lets say you want to go from 1st to 2nd, you press and hold L1, you then press and hold R1, you then release L1, and then R1. If downshifting, the sequence would reverse, Press R1, Press L1, Release R1, Release L1. ... or of course the same idea with X and Square. Effectively, whilst both buttons are depressed the clutch is engaged, and the shift direction is set depending on whether you're going L > R or R < L. It could be that releasing the first button again before the second means you stay in the gear you were in. It wouldn't require the dexterity to use any other buttons - which would be tricky anyway, and would give the opportunity for some control over shift characteristics in the older cars.
 
I think it was back in GT5... there was a hack you could do with the G25 clutch/shifter, which basically gave all the advantages of clutch/manual gear change without having to use the clutch - some sort of automated clutch hack. Gave massive time advantages in time trials.
 
MatskiMonk
I know people have had a whinge about the handling of the E30, but it is that seemingly endless gearshift and the rev-black-hole that accompanies it that I'm not a fan of! Hadn't considered an in game clutch would affect that.
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Put the adjustable transmission in it and the problems are gone (applies for ever manual N-car) ;)
 

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