Don't screw this up Turn 10!

  • Thread starter CnPx
  • 279 comments
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It may just be that
1. the car in the trailer is super shiny
2. the ray traced reflections don't take the other car's reflections, making the Ferrari look quite flat.

I don't know. I'm not a light expert. I just know that it looks pretty wrong to me.
 
AutumnalGlow
It may just be that
1. the car in the trailer is super shiny
2. the ray traced reflections don't take the other car's reflections, making the Ferrari look quite flat.

I don't know. I'm not a light expert. I just know that it looks pretty wrong to me.
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You're not wrong. There is definitely something wrong with the pic you posted. The reflection is real, but the lighting and resolution effect is terrible. It looks like FM2 reflected on the car. Hopefully you can turn it off for a large framerate bump. Ray Tracing in a racing game while actively driving is completely useless IMO.
 
AutumnalGlow
It may just be that
1. the car in the trailer is super shiny
2. the ray traced reflections don't take the other car's reflections, making the Ferrari look quite flat.

I don't know. I'm not a light expert. I just know that it looks pretty wrong to me.
Click to expand...
The car in the reflection definitely isn't reflecting. There was another scene with the orange Porsche, and when you see it in the reflection of the black car(I think it was the same GTR actually), it looks relatively flat.

EDIT: Found the image
1655407464709.png



The LOD on the Porsche is also a good bit lower on the reflection as well.
 
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ImaRobot
The car in the reflection definitely isn't reflecting. There was another scene with the orange Porsche, and when you see it in the reflection of the black car(I think it was the same GTR actually), it looks relatively flat.

EDIT: Found the image
View attachment 1161623


The LOD on the Porsche is also a good bit lower on the reflection as well.
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I don't think a gloss black car reflecting the color of it's surroundings is unrealistic:
metallic-black-nissan-gt-r-10392.jpg


I agree something feels off with the reflection of the Ferrari 330. I think it's probably that the LOD and reflection quality of the Ferrari is not as accurate as the GTR, and so it looks a bit unreal and jarring. Still though, RT reflections are awesome.

There is also no cutoff in sharpness, which makes it a little more mirror-like.
 
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Eunos_Cosmo
I don't think a gloss black car reflecting the color of it's surroundings is unrealistic:
metallic-black-nissan-gt-r-10392.jpg


I agree something feels off with the reflection of the Ferrari 330. I think it's probably that the LOD and reflection quality of the Ferrari is not as accurate as the GTR, and so it looks a bit unreal and jarring. Still though, RT reflections are awesome.

There is also no cutoff in sharpness, which makes it a little more mirror-like.
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I don't either.. but I didnt say that lol.

I feel the lack of the reflection in the...reflection.. is causing the car to appear a different color since the light source isn't bouncing off it in the same way. That porsche color is probably the true baseline color of the car without the reflective gloss.
 
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How taxing is a reflection of a reflection on FPS, and what level of reflective exponents is acceptable?
 
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BoneSawTX
How taxing is a reflection of a reflection on FPS, and at what level of reflective exponents is acceptable?
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i did try out the mod on FH5 which is super basic self reflections but if you did 3 times reflections, so reflection in reflections it cut the fps in half lol. Turn 10 choose the perfect balance, you guys need to understand that there is no unlimited power. Also it was real time in gameplay which many of you overlook when comparing to other stuf 😅.
 
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To be fair, the reflections seem way off in some of the "wow" shots in the gameplay feature - it's not just the body of the GT-R Nismo that's polished like a mirror, but also the brake rotors in the R8 used to show the new damage effects

2022-06-17.png


Yeah, I don't think that's normal. And as a matter of fact, there's no other instance (either in the trailer or the gameplay feature) of brake rotors I could use to check if I've something in my teeth.

So, it's possible that they may have amped up the reflectiveness of some materials for those shots.
 
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Fun Fact i noticed: I've been following the Forza games since 2008 and strangely enough, I've never seen anyone complain about the reflections before, that the conventional technology had its weaknesses or couldn't display some things at all. But now with raytracing we complain about every tiny little detail. 😅
 
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Ak1504
Fun Fact i noticed: I've been following the Forza games since 2008 and strangely enough, I've never seen anyone complain about the reflections before, that the conventional technology had its weaknesses or couldn't display some things at all. But now with raytracing we complain about every tiny little detail. 😅
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I think for me it's that I never really noticed a big issue. Sure there were small things, like body gaps looking very slightly awkward, but who cares? But now there's a big bright car reflecting in another car and it looks wrong to me, so it's far more noticeable.
 
I don't know exactly why but after watching the stream my expectations are now so high and it's not what I want. But I just love all the info so far. Yeah graphics and sounds are important, but I really care only for physics and features/options. Full racing weekends in multiplayer suggest that we could have something similar in career mode too. In FM7 the biggest thing for me was the race length option in career mode. So if I could have the same option for FM with practice sessions, fuel and tire wear I'm sold.
Love that they are going the sim route and can't wait to hear more about physics. Also wish more of a sim handing is not going to end up in just hard to control cars.
 
Ak1504
Fun Fact i noticed: I've been following the Forza games since 2008 and strangely enough, I've never seen anyone complain about the reflections before, that the conventional technology had its weaknesses or couldn't display some things at all. But now with raytracing we complain about every tiny little detail. 😅
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Oh, I definitely remember people complaining at some point during the Xbox One gen titles that reflections were only 30 FPS while the rest of the game was at 60 FPS. Then again, I also definitely remember people being mad at FM4 for not having Spa, Bathurst, or open-wheel cars, and now half the fanbase seems convinced that FM4 was actually where the series peaked.
 
Stupornaut
and now half the fanbase seems convinced that FM4 was actually where the series peaked.
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Yea i know about that. As someone that started with FM2 and since then bought and played every Forza Motorsport and Forza Horizon game i can tell you that every new game of the series is always my favourite one until the next one is out 😅 I even bought FM1 and played it to enjoy the proper OG Drivatar feature ^^
 
Stupornaut
half the fanbase seems convinced that FM4 was actually where the series peaked
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Forza Motorsports peaked with 6, but nobody wants to hear that (after the culling of the car/track roster that was 5). It had rain, night, the most accurate tracks at the time, a classy presentation, the fun Nascar expansion with actual drafting that you could feel, and brought back Porsche, and those expansions I won by participating in the first Forza Championship, so fond memories.

FM6 will live on in my hard drive.
 
Nacho Libre
Forza Motorsports peaked with 6, but nobody wants to hear that (after the culling of the car/track roster that was 5). It had rain, night, the most accurate tracks at the time, a classy presentation, the fun Nascar expansion with actual drafting that you could feel, and brought back Porsche, and those expansions I won by participating in the first Forza Championship, so fond memories.

FM6 will live on in my hard drive.
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I gotta go with Forza 2 and Forza 3. I loved the AH in FM2 even though it was bare bones. It's what built the community as a whole (Gearbox M-Shark anyone?) You literally had to advertise for people to buy your tunes and liveries. Made cars rare and hunting for them fun...tunes and paint were locked. Unicorn cars gifted by Turn 10. FM2 also was pretty balanced AWD vs. RWD. The ranking system from Beginner to All Star matchmaking really weeded out the rammers once you got your ranking up. Fast forward to FM3 and the original storefront. I don't think the storefront was great but still better than what we have now. Biggest drawback of FM3 was how AWD dominated most of the classes. Community was always my favorite part along with hotlapping the leaderboards. Didn't spend much time with FM4 or FM5 thanks to raising children. FM6 and FM7 are just ok, but Turn 10 had already killed much of it's online community.

I just recently got a PS5 along with GT7 and I am terribly disappointed. No leaderboards like FM, like not even close. Online play is dead outside of daily races because you can't even switch a track without shutting down a room. Spent all my hard earned credits on vehicles I can't even use. I hope the rumors are true about the upcoming fixes...

But yeah, like the OP's title, don't screw this up Turn 10!!!
 
MARsSPEED1
I gotta go with Forza 2 and Forza 3. I loved the AH in FM2 even though it was bare bones. It's what built the community as a whole (Gearbox M-Shark anyone?) You literally had to advertise for people to buy your tunes and liveries. Made cars rare and hunting for them fun...tunes and paint were locked. Unicorn cars gifted by Turn 10. FM2 also was pretty balanced AWD vs. RWD. The ranking system from Beginner to All Star matchmaking really weeded out the rammers once you got your ranking up. Fast forward to FM3 and the original storefront. I don't think the storefront was great but still better than what we have now. Biggest drawback of FM3 was how AWD dominated most of the classes. Community was always my favorite part along with hotlapping the leaderboards. Didn't spend much time with FM4 or FM5 thanks to raising children. FM6 and FM7 are just ok, but Turn 10 had already killed much of it's online community.

I just recently got a PS5 along with GT7 and I am terribly disappointed. No leaderboards like FM, like not even close. Online play is dead outside of daily races because you can't even switch a track without shutting down a room. Spent all my hard earned credits on vehicles I can't even use. I hope the rumors are true about the upcoming fixes...

But yeah, like the OP's title, don't screw this up Turn 10!!!
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No doubt community features were better in past titles, up to FM4. I wasn't big on them, but I hope they make a comeback for all that enjoyed them.
 
Nacho Libre
No doubt community features were better in past titles, up to FM4. I wasn't big on them, but I hope they make a comeback for all that enjoyed them.
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There's really three community design features I'd like to see implemented more than anything:

-if I want to create a custom livery and post it for other people to use, I have to create my own versions of things like manufacturer and sponsor decals because using anyone else's would lock the entire design. T10 should implement a system that allows everyone to incorporate other users' decals/designs into liveries, and when those liveries get posted, the creator of the decal gets a cut of each livery sold.

-I really want a feature where I can actually pick out specific custom liveries I actually want to see used in singleplayer races. Maybe a "use downloaded liveries only" feature or something, so I get to race against a field of actually well-crafted designs and not a bunch of Monster and Nyan Cat designs.

-Custom vinyl sets or "decal sheets". This originally just popped into my head as an idea along the lines of "there should be the ability to sell a font you created in the vinyl editor as a set of A-Z / 0-9 characters that painters can use piecemeal," but I bet there are a lot of other uses for that, too.
 
Ramosis
I think this Digital Foundry video's can answer (almost) all of yours (and mine) questions:
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So there's different levels of RT going on basically. With high quality RT in replays and more basic RT in gameplay with it targeting 4k rather than locking to it.

Hopefully we get plenty of scalability, I'd honestly rather have 4k60 locked in gameplay with RT on everywhere else.
 
Stupornaut
-if I want to create a custom livery and post it for other people to use, I have to create my own versions of things like manufacturer and sponsor decals because using anyone else's would lock the entire design. T10 should implement a system that allows everyone to incorporate other users' decals/designs into liveries, and when those liveries get posted, the creator of the decal gets a cut of each livery sold.
Click to expand...

Or they could, you know, get rid of the monetization of UGC entirely.
 
I am still worried that those graphics quirks and features in new Forza will come at cost which won't be mentioned untill we get this game. Even powerfull PC with RTX 3080 do struggle with Ray Tracing in 4k and 60FPS and here we have game that is promised to run on Xbox console with hugely detailed off track props. I wan't to believe but I am afraid that we will see less cars on tracks or some other things being scarified to achieve this level of graphics.
 
MroczMR
I am still worried that those graphics quirks and features in new Forza will come at cost which won't be mentioned untill we get this game. Even powerfull PC with RTX 3080 do struggle with Ray Tracing in 4k and 60FPS and here we have game that is promised to run on Xbox console with hugely detailed off track props. I wan't to believe but I am afraid that we will see less cars on tracks or some other things being scarified to achieve this level of graphics.
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www.eurogamer.net

Forza Motorsport: Is 4K 60fps with ray tracing really possible on Series X?

Alex Battaglia investigates two new Forza Motorsport trailers, trying to answer the question - is 4K 60fps with RT viab…
www.eurogamer.net www.eurogamer.net

This article should help you. In essence, 2 different types of ray tracing 'types' being used at different points of the experience, more basic mirror like RT during gameplay and RTGI (more detailed RT basically) in replays, photomode and garage scenes. Also their analysis shows perhaps the dropping of MSAA in favour of less taxing anti aliasing techniques and not always hitting a 4k Res.

If course it's early days and there's sure to be a lot more refinement from that particular build of the game round to launch. But it's interesting no less and clearly some very clever ways of achieving those targets.
 
I watched digital foundry video about it, and I still have concerns if we are going to get decent number of cars on track. I have fears we will come back to 16 cars grids or even less.
 
AutumnalGlow
I think I've figured out why Forza's ray tracing, and reflections in general, look so wrong to me. They don't reflect according to the color of the car properly.

Take this screenshot from the trailer for example.
View attachment 1161498

This car is black. The Ferrari and the environment around it should not be so bright in the reflection. The property that makes something black specifically is the lack of light reflected. Forza, however, doesn't handle this correctly. The Ferrari stays a very vibrant red, its white circle barely darkened. This all causes everything to look disconnected, despite Chris Esaki's claim that it makes everything more connected.

Here's a good comparison from Gran Turismo 7, photo taken by @wowbaggerBR and originally posted here:
www.gtplanet.net

The reflection photos thread

Ray tracing is a major feature available in the PlayStation 5 version and I have been having a blast taking pictures in angles and situations that exploit acurate reflections in puddles, other cars, maybe parts of a car being reflected by itself and so on. It gets quite addictive. In this...
www.gtplanet.net www.gtplanet.net
View attachment 1161499

The blue car in the reflection is dark. Its white circle reduced to gray. The environment is darkened just as much. This is how reflections on a car should look. I understand there can be differences in car paint, and these two aren't going to be identical in reality. But Forza's screenshot is undoubtedly wrong.

I think this is a large part of what makes Gran Turismo 7's cars look so much better. The reflections make so much more sense.

This isn't exclusive to black cars either, but with ray tracing the problem is much clearer than ever. This is the best look we've had at ray tracing in Forza, so it's the best example I can use.

Unfortunately I don't expect to see this changed before release.
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DF explained RT reflections cost less if those are mirror like. FM uses different quality settings in gameplay vs replay. GT7 has RT reflections exclusively in replay 30FPS.
nukleabomb
View attachment 1161526
these conditions seem closer to the GT photo
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Yes, replay vs replay mode.
 

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