Dr is stupid and exploitable

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Voodoovaj, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

    Messages:
    2,704
    Location:
    Canada
    DR is stupid. There, I said it.

    First off, the way racers are matched is stupid. The top 20% are of DR "X". 50% are of DR X/1.5, and the remaining 30% are DR X/2 (obviously it's not exactly that, but it's close). STUPID. Terrible!!

    Don't S driver want to measure themselves against a field of S drivers? I know that when I fall into the cannon fodder category (the X/2 group), I am demoralized. I'm pretty good at working my way through the field (which is why my DR gets into the A range rather than pure lap time) but it's still a frustrating experience.

    In real life, this isn't the way it is. In real life, the divisions would never mix and I feel strongly that they should not mix here either. E drivers with E drivers, D with D, etc. When I become an A driver again (more on that in a sec) I would be happy to run with other A's, but not the S's. That's just dumb. No one wants to be cannon fodder. We all want a legit chance at a win no matter where we start.

    Now, here's the stupid exploitable part. I, as a human playing this game, have not changed. I see what the system tries to do. Succeed and you move up (finish better than you started). Fail and you move down (finish worse). But, as I see all the time, quitting kicks you down a LONG way. So, today, I quit my way to a pole and a win. I just quit until the system saw me as a worse driver than a was a few hours earlier. I get it. They had to discourage quitting, but they have ENCOURAGED IT!

    For quitting my way down the ranking I am rewarded with Pole #49 and Win #62 (thank you for your applause, you are too kind)

    I got it in a room full of low B, C, and D drivers. Hello!?! Did they not ever consider that a person doesn't all of a sudden lose their skill? So, here's my advice to all you frustrated players. You don't like that you haven't got a win? Quit it 'til you Hit it! Just keep quitting until you are in a position to win.

    What were they thinking?

    Actually, I know exactly what they were thinking. They tried to replicate single player, but that was a terrible idea. I really hope there is a version 2.0 of this system coming down the pipe, but until then, I am going to try and get my DR as low as possible so I can score some easy victories and get my trophies.
     
    Lord Protector, wedjim and Sander 001 like this.
  2. Downhill Dino

    Downhill Dino Premium

    Messages:
    11,472
    Location:
    United States
    So... basically every ranked mode in every game?
     
    Mini Stiggy likes this.
  3. Bengalryan9

    Bengalryan9

    Messages:
    16
    Doesn't it prioritize grouping you up by SR rather than DR? If so, there's the issue.
     
    phil_75 and Sander 001 like this.
  4. Khannie

    Khannie

    Messages:
    155
    There aren't enough S/A drivers at one time in order to fill a room with all comparable ratings. Would you rather just race with like a field of 3-4? I just don't think there are that many S/A drivers out there - most are casual gamers like myself that rotate between D/C/B......because those rooms are always filled with the comparable ratings at prime time.
     
  5. John Crellin

    John Crellin

    Messages:
    655
    I always looked at being cannon fodder as an opportunity to get some real DR points. If im DRB and i get placed with a bunch DR A then the strength of the field increases. Yeah i may not get into the top 5 but if im placed 12/16 then getting into top 8 will score me some big DR points.
     
  6. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

    Messages:
    2,704
    Location:
    Canada
    That makes it ok? 90% of games are terrible, so we shouldn't expect any to be good?

    It's not hard to lock people into a DR tier for a while rather than having it constantly floating. Like, for instance, your average DR value for the week sets your ranking DR. Boom...simple.
     
    JamCar0ne, phl0w and wedjim like this.
  7. Outspacer

    Outspacer

    Messages:
    1,906
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    For DR, it simply scores you as being last. Which you are. But, that is far more painful if you're in a mixed-field race, compared to evenly matched. Roughly double the drop, in a quick example I tested (S or A vs mix of Bs and Cs, compared to evenly matched S).

    Dunno how much it drops SR, but if that drops a rank that may start to limit DR rank as well (although not DR points, at least to begin with).
     
    Voodoovaj likes this.
  8. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

    Messages:
    2,704
    Location:
    Canada
    So skew the game towards the lowest common denominator? How about the S drivers get on different servers so they can play world wide?

    S with high A's...fine. S with B's C's and D's is a raw deal for the B's C's and D's

    I lost rough 8000 points yesterday from quitting. I dropped another 3000 today to get into that other race (actually, that 3000 is the sum of quitting and then winning the race)
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
    NosOsH and Sander 001 like this.
  9. Miguelinho

    Miguelinho

    Messages:
    228
    I would also take into consideration how many "X" rated drivers have entered the race, and more specifically, the matchmaking group you're in. When you have, for example; 3 S rated drivers, 10 A rated drivers and 7 B rated drivers, it's usually a case of there weren't many S rated drivers who entered the event at that time.
     
    Sander 001 likes this.
  10. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

    Messages:
    2,704
    Location:
    Canada
    http://www.jasonguernsey.net/gts/Driver-Rating

    There's only 500+ S drivers. There's 72000 C drivers.

    There's a valid truth in philosophy. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Saying that the DR matching system is ok because it lets the S drivers play with more people is ridiculous.

    C's and D's , which makes up over 400000 people, should be in rooms that gives them all a decent shot at winning.

    And yes, if they can only come up with 10 A's to put in a room for an A race, that IS better. What benefit is there to an A driver to have a bunch of B's and C's at the back of the pack? So there is something to complain about when they become back markers?
     
  11. John Crellin

    John Crellin

    Messages:
    655
    Players By Driver Rating
    DR Players %
    E 483,398 51.9695%
    D 327,610 35.2209%
    C 72,059 7.7470%
    B 42,700 4.5906%
    A 3,867 0.4157%
    S 523 0.0562%

    Im not asking facetiously, but how many of those 523 DR S players will be in the same sport mode race at the same time worldwide let alone in a single region?

    EDIT: damn you beat me to it lol
     
    jimbo197, phil_75, wedjim and 4 others like this.
  12. Miguelinho

    Miguelinho

    Messages:
    228
    I've been doing the Gr.3 daily race a few times today with the M6. I'm S rated and have been matched with 4 more at most, the rest were A rated.
     
    phil_75 likes this.
  13. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

    Messages:
    2,704
    Location:
    Canada
    And you know, I'm ok with this and I suspect you are too. At least, that is close to being the same class of drivers.

    But what about what I did? I was an A driver yesterday morning. Now I'm racing with C's. Is that fair to the C's? I don't think so.
     
  14. 250Cal

    250Cal

    Messages:
    564
    I got disconnected earlier. Cost me 2022 DR points and 4 SR points.
     
    John Crellin likes this.
  15. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

    Messages:
    2,704
    Location:
    Canada
    Boom. There you go. That's not fair. It's not fair for you nor, potentially, for the next round of players you'll face. You didn't suddenly change as a driver.

    IRL sports take place over a period of time and the wins and losses are aggregated to determine where you stand. In soccer, winning teams get promoted and losing teams get relegated.

    Imagine if Manchester United got relegated after one loss? Or, if you're a fan of baseball, what if a minor league team wins one game by a blowout and then has to go play the New York Yankees the next week?

    It's ridiculous!
     
    wedjim likes this.
  16. John Crellin

    John Crellin

    Messages:
    655
    If the Man U bus breaks down and the players dont make it to the game. They forfeit the game. Its the same premise
     
  17. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

    Messages:
    4,617
    Location:
    Canada
    Exploitable, you don't say :)
    [​IMG]
    In B/S you basically have no chance. There's usually a DR.S at pole and always a couple DR.A up front with 2 sec faster lap times.
    The weird thing is that when I got DR.A again I was placed in a room with only DR.C and DR.D drivers... Only once though.

    What sometimes helps is lowering your SR. Matchmaking is better at SR.B, more chance to actually have a close range of lap times instead of hoping you'll reach the finish before the timer runs out in a 10 lap race.

    Now at the low end of DR.A, half the room is DR.S, rest DR.A and I get to start in 17th dodging the carnage. Time to enter races without qualifying again to reduce DR back down a bit. No point in qualifying for 17th anyway. I don't enjoy hot lapping.

    It's no good for a DR.S or DR.A driver to end up in a room with low DR.B to DR.D. They have nothing to gain, and a lot to lose in case they get punted in t1 or disconnected.
     
  18. JacksHerer

    JacksHerer

    Messages:
    1,653
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    The worst thing PD did with this game was to have those F1 trophies
    The 2nd worse thing PD did was to let people see their DR/SR rating.

    People should play the game not the system, winning is nothing compared to racing someone equally matched. If the DR:S guys didn't have a status to maintain, they would mess around using the slowest car in the class, just so they could get a fix.

    I have survived in DR:A but I see myself as a mid DR:B driver, that's where I had the most fun, having close races, overtaking people on track.
    DR:A is at a pace I cannot exceed to make a clean pass. I regret letting myself get into DR:A I used to nerf myself with the viper in GR4, now I'm having to use the M4 to keep my 'status'.
    So I feel guilty of playing the system rather than the game.

    I have another PS3/PS4 account that I have raced with, I've got loads of poles/fastest laps/wins on it with less than 30 races I'm at DR:B SR:S. Am I stealing those from real noobs? no! most of the time I'm racing people who are nerfing their account. It's satisfying to take the pole two tenths from 2nd who is 2 seconds ahead of 3rd. I feel smug that I'm ruining someones attempt at the trophies.
     
  19. Nando deBem

    Nando deBem

    Messages:
    788
    Location:
    Canada
    Well... I just got to S.

    There’s not enough of us to be always racing amongst ourselves. At least for now.

    Sorry Voodoo, but you’re always saying how easy it is to code something. We had this conversation before. It obviously is not that easy. There’s a sea of variables to consider. Your super simple solution wouldn’t work. Orma, Windfire and the other supah fast aliens would take a week off and then would race you in the following week. Then you would come here saying that DR ranking should be biweekly ratings. Then they would do that... and Orma would go to Italy for vacations... and you’d still complain. It’s just a letter! If you hide it somewhere, those guys are still gonna be faster than the rest of us, mortals. The “category” is there... you’d just not see it.
     
  20. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

    Messages:
    2,704
    Location:
    Canada
    But they don't leave the premier league as a result, do they? That's what I am saving. They don't all of a sudden go from being in the Premier League to being in League One.
     
  21. Meggle

    Meggle

    Messages:
    111
    For me it is a racing game for having fun.if you want to win all the time you can custom build your own race or try the gt league. If you want hard racing with tough opponents the game can provide that. If you want to win trophies you can do that as well as you have pointed out. You can design and show off liveries and pics. I think the game is fine. You can play it how you want. If you get fun from winning againist less dr that is your choice. I luv racing tough opponents and i can get this. If you want you can join a racing league and enjoy the game that way. Life is too short, find a way to have fun.
     
  22. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

    Messages:
    2,704
    Location:
    Canada
    2018 is my first full year out of game development since 1995. It's easy.

    And either way, whatever, so mix the S and with A's. There's thousands of players now.

    It still doesn't mean the B's and the C's should be thrown into the mix as well and it SURELY doesn't mean that it's ok to fluctuate on a race to race basis.
     
  23. JacksHerer

    JacksHerer

    Messages:
    1,653
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    yawn yawn any analogy except football
     
    John Crellin likes this.
  24. John Crellin

    John Crellin

    Messages:
    655
    Quitting doesnt move you down an entire rank unless you are right on the line. So in this analogy if Man U needs the win to remian in the premeir league and they dont show up for it, then they get demoted.

    Uhhh.... Its called soccer.....:crazy::cheers:
     
    Tristan Jones and JacksHerer like this.
  25. kjeldsen

    kjeldsen

    Messages:
    1,139
    Spring Cleaning
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  26. Nando deBem

    Nando deBem

    Messages:
    788
    Location:
    Canada
    2018 is one more year in software engineering in my never paused career. So what?
     
  27. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

    Messages:
    4,617
    Location:
    Canada
    You're not ruining anything for the other player going for the trophy, you're finally giving him the race experience he's been looking for. At least that was my experience when going for the trophy. Finally some close matched battles without worrying about dodging accidents in front and crashed DR.A drivers muscling their way back. I sadly had some of the most exciting races after lowering myself to D/B and racing B/B and drivers with equal qualifying times. Why can't I race these people when I'm B/S.

    It's too much effort to stay in the matchmaking sweet spot though. SR shoots back up, DR as well, quitting races is a waste of time. There's still great battles to be had yet much less frequently, and usually interrupted by bad driving in front or behind. Filling the room and prioritizing SR isn't making the races better.

    It would be better to group people on average or best lap time for the track, regardless of DR.
     
  28. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

    Messages:
    2,704
    Location:
    Canada
    So, having a system that benefits a few hundred, but doesn't benefit a few hundred thousand is a bad system.
     
  29. Nando deBem

    Nando deBem

    Messages:
    788
    Location:
    Canada
    Well... just but B, A and S together.
    Now we’re a big group! And you’ll still gonna lose.

    In your previously stated method, you’d complain that categories are not well divided.
     
  30. JacksHerer

    JacksHerer

    Messages:
    1,653
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Yes ^^ this, that's what I want, I miss the grids where 10 people or more were separated by 1 second.

    And give us grid starts!

    Edit : I would like to only have time for 3 qualifying laps pre race, and solo qualifying had to be done before every sport race. That should spread the poles and wins out at least.
     
    TenderLoins, Renrag39 and Voodoovaj like this.