- 655
- United States
- FluffaRaptor
I second this^^
Dr is stupid and exploitable
- Thread starter Voodoovaj
- 208 comments
- 8,948 views
- 3,603
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
You didn't read my post.
I am exploiting it to prove a point. I'm not grumbling about losing. I'm grumbling that I should not be able to drop myself down into a B/C race if I'm an A driver. It's unfair FOR THE OTHERS.
The system is currently rewarding you for tanking your ratings. The rating should have stability.
You said that you're an S driver. Ok. So let's say you have a bad internet day. You get disconnected over and over. Let's say 5 times. That's going to be about 20000 points, or just enough to drop you into the B group.
Are you still an S driver still from a skill perspective? Yes, however, you're a B driver according to the game. I don't think that's right.
- 798
- Vancouver
- Nando_deBem
All systems are exploitable. Make it by Qualify time and people would brake before the line to get matched against slower drivers.
The only measurement of my skill is my DR. Not wins, fastest laps, poles...
The only real thing is the DR.
If people are exploiting tanking their DR...
Let them be. They are giving other serious drivers more points for a while.
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- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
That's why it should be based on an average of your 3 best lap times for a track. You can't exploit that, unless you forfeit every race which has no gain for you. People need to be matched together based on actual race pace. DR is supposed to achieve that, yet fails miserably due to being hampered by SR rank determining how rooms are filled and by only looking at finish position to exchange points.
DR itself if biased towards hot lapping, not actually racing. Most races are too short and too chaotic. Starting in the top 3 is what gains you DR. Not qualifying and moving 12 places up in a race with clean race bonus, can still lose you DR.
- 798
- Vancouver
- Nando_deBem
Avarage of qualy times are exploitable.
Average of race laps are not a good measure. Tire wear, fuel weight, other drivers...
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- 655
- United States
- FluffaRaptor
Based on this logic i withdraw my support for the quali matching idea lol
I dont think this is true. Im pretty sure you only have to finish in the top half of the field and then a strength of field modifier added. Either that or there is a predicted position that they calculate based on DR that you have to beat then a SOF mod is added.
idk...something like that
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
How you perform in a race is an excellent measure. It needs to be flexible enough to adjust to new race conditions, yet not that flexible that you can manipulate it easily by throwing a few races. With enough data the game should be able to have a measurement of how you perform on each track
From what I understood from the thread that's trying to sort all this out is, that it's a point exchange system. If you finish in front of a player with higher DR you take some of his points and vice versa. However matchmaking is making silly rooms with DR.S up front to DR,D in the back. If I don't qualify and draw a room where I sit behind a field of DR.C and DR.D as a DR.B driver, I have to pass all of them not to let my DR drop. Once I got a room with me high DR.B unqualified in last, while the whole room was DR.D. Couldn't catch em all in 3 laps, actually only gained 5 places, unruly field to pass cleanly. That was a nice drop! Online trying to simulate classic offline GT?
This is also how people that lower their DR steal points from genuine drivers at that level. They take their points while easily moving back up to the higher rankings. Of course they also give those points away when tanking their rating again. Just not to the same people.
- 1,025
- New Zealand
- noshog
Why would you tank your ratings just to get in group where you can get an easy win ??
Sure we all race to win but surely a hard fought battle for 5th place is much more enjoyable than cruising to an unchallenged win ?
I swear everyone concentrates too much on these ratings....Just race and what will be, will be.
It is a racing game not a ratings game !
Sure we all race to win but surely a hard fought battle for 5th place is much more enjoyable than cruising to an unchallenged win ?
I swear everyone concentrates too much on these ratings....Just race and what will be, will be.
It is a racing game not a ratings game !
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- 655
- United States
- FluffaRaptor
Ahh... Enlightening!
That would make sense. I haven't looked at that thread in a while, maybe it's time to see what they have come up with. Thanks
That would make sense. I haven't looked at that thread in a while, maybe it's time to see what they have come up with. Thanks
The one place this hurts is in the FIA races as the points on offer are directly related to your ratings.
If you don't do the FIA races, there's no deterrent for abusing the system.
- 921
- SwoopGTR
Seems like you are after PSN trophys more than anything else. A win at anything less than S Rank Driver doesnt really prove anything.
End of the day trophy hunters are going to exploit loopholes in every game they play just to get trophys.
This means the flaw is not with Gran Turismo, its with the PSN and makes actually the platinum trophy not worth what it should be.
End of the day trophy hunters are going to exploit loopholes in every game they play just to get trophys.
This means the flaw is not with Gran Turismo, its with the PSN and makes actually the platinum trophy not worth what it should be.
Exploitable, you don't say
In B/S you basically have no chance. There's usually a DR.S at pole and always a couple DR.A up front with 2 sec faster lap times.
The weird thing is that when I got DR.A again I was placed in a room with only DR.C and DR.D drivers... Only once though.
Yes and no. I think this depends on a number of things such as region and time of day.
I have had many races at DR A where the field is made entirely of As and Bs.
An FIA race will almost always be your DR +/- 1 letter i.e. for DR A it will be all S and A or all A or all A and B.
Agree to an extent. If you are a decent driver, you will be nearer the front end of a lower SR race.
SR has a big influence again here. As do the factors I mention in the first question. There aren't enough S rated players to tilt the field the way you suggest. The most loaded field I've ever seen was in an FIA race and it was 9 DR S and 11 DR A.
In daily races, I've only seen DR S drivers in 25% of races.
Whereas the lower rated drivers have a lot to gain. Matches such as these tend to occur when you have an SR at A or B.
I haven't got data for driver ratings below DR A. I don't want to nerf my account. I'd have to create another to capture the data to understand the potential gains.
- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
The relevant stat though isn't how many of each driver class there is, but how many of them are actually racing at a given time. How many of those C and D's are one and done? How many of those 4300 A's and S's are on every single night for hours on end, available to be matched and how many of the rest of the B to E's are there? Given the sheer number of regions, races and days played there needs to be a significant number of people online every day just to ensure full rooms at all times let alone rooms full of people in the A and S classes.
- 3,603
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
@Johnnypenso
I would argue that more people would play if the system weren't skewed towards benefiting bad driving or gaming the system. If I were to spend one race being a griefer, everyone thinks I am jerk, but I end up walking away with the benefit of an easier time getting achievements.
It's bad enough that the single player has no ultimate purpose, but having the "official" multiplayer structured to be unwelcoming to more casual players seems like a recipe for disaster.
I would argue that more people would play if the system weren't skewed towards benefiting bad driving or gaming the system. If I were to spend one race being a griefer, everyone thinks I am jerk, but I end up walking away with the benefit of an easier time getting achievements.
It's bad enough that the single player has no ultimate purpose, but having the "official" multiplayer structured to be unwelcoming to more casual players seems like a recipe for disaster.
zzz_pt
Premium
- 8,188
- Porto living in Hamburg
- zzz_pt
I'll just throw this in there:
A high DRB is closer to a low DRA than a low DRA to mid or high DRA. The difference between high DRS to low DRS (this is even within the same DR) is probably bigger. So it makes sense to have both in the same race. It's only a letter. Also, there are not that many top DRS drivers and it's impossible for them to be online at the same time playing daily races.
I'm not a top S/S driver and I skip most days (only ~150 races) of sport mode. I know for a fact that quite a large number of other S/S drivers do not care so much about daily races. Some just go for FIA races for example.
With all those things happening, it's only logical that the few S/S drivers who play dailies at any given time of day will have to fit into lobbies with drivers from lower rankings.
If PD made dailies more appealing maybe more people from all DR rankings would show up and we would see less lobbies with so many different DRs. I did a race a few days ago at Lake Maggiore where there was only one other S/S, a few A/S, a bunch is B/S, C/S and even D/S drivers. Won with almost 20sec gap to second place... Got 13 DR points. Lol
A high DRB is closer to a low DRA than a low DRA to mid or high DRA. The difference between high DRS to low DRS (this is even within the same DR) is probably bigger. So it makes sense to have both in the same race. It's only a letter. Also, there are not that many top DRS drivers and it's impossible for them to be online at the same time playing daily races.
I'm not a top S/S driver and I skip most days (only ~150 races) of sport mode. I know for a fact that quite a large number of other S/S drivers do not care so much about daily races. Some just go for FIA races for example.
With all those things happening, it's only logical that the few S/S drivers who play dailies at any given time of day will have to fit into lobbies with drivers from lower rankings.
If PD made dailies more appealing maybe more people from all DR rankings would show up and we would see less lobbies with so many different DRs. I did a race a few days ago at Lake Maggiore where there was only one other S/S, a few A/S, a bunch is B/S, C/S and even D/S drivers. Won with almost 20sec gap to second place... Got 13 DR points. Lol
- 3,603
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
Ok, so how does a disconnect measure into your DR?
You aren't seeing my point. If a person has achieved and A or an S rating, how can they also be a B or a C rating in a matter of hours? They are either one or the other. Quitting a race may mean you finished last, but retiring is not a reflection of your driving ability.
Like I said, if there is a day of bad internet and you get bumped down to B, it's not a representation of your skill, it's not a fair judgement on you, nor is then fair to the subsequent drivers that have to face you in the races that you have to run in order to get back to your rank.
An exploit is going to happen in any system, sure, but merely exiting the round should not be that exploit!
There is no valid reason to not retain your ranking for a week (or longer) prior to a reassessment.
- 15,109
- Melbourne
- ScottPuss20
- CheetahsMeow
Yep, I'm definitely in the minority!
- 798
- Vancouver
- Nando_deBem
Quiting is an exploit.
You're an S driver on pole. Distracted, you miss the first corner. Your now 10th, and are probably gonna lose a bunch of DR.
Quit!
The points your DR contributed to the “prize pool” should be accounted for, even in disconnects. So players are balanced in a long enough timeline.
I’ve been there. I got disconnected. I’ve been pushed off track. I got back to mid A a couple of times before getting to S. Somehow, on average, I deserved to get to S. So I’m there... for now. lol
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- 610
- New Zealand
- hollidog
- Hollidog
Check out this guys stats, http://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?profile=2699458 308 wins from 322 races yet his DR is only 18,357, 7k less than mine and my meagre 16 wins. Look at the daily records as well, down to one numerous times. Something fishy going on for sure.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
So tell me, how do you consistently get that hard fought battle for 5th place. Most of the time the field either simply spreads out or I'm dodging accidents from starting mid to back field. It's more fun not to qualify as that at least ensures some interaction with other players while avoiding the first corner/lap chaos when starting in the middle.
Btw did I just see you in the daily B race
I already shed 2000 points for doing a couple practice runs, starting in last without qualifying. Gaining a few places here and there is more fun than qualifying. I've never driving the combination track in reverse before.
- 946
- Netherlands
- Shottah072
The problem is there is not enough S players. The best ive seen in a Daily maybe half S half A.
- 1,025
- New Zealand
- noshog
So tell me, how do you consistently get that hard fought battle for 5th place. Most of the time the field either simply spreads out or I'm dodging accidents from starting mid to back field. It's more fun not to qualify as that at least ensures some interaction with other players while avoiding the first corner/lap chaos when starting in the middle.
Btw did I just see you in the daily B race
Well to be honest I dont, but thats because I have only just started on GTS.
Sorry I guess I need to give a bit of back story...I stopped playing GT just after 6 released and swapped all my racing to iRacing on PC, I got to a reasonably high level but had to stop due to starting a family, I havent done any competitive racing for over 3 years now
. I got a PS4 for Christmas and thought a good way to get back into racing would be GT, I can see a lot of similarities with GTS and iRacing now, but the problems seem to be the same...Everyone cares more about their ratings than they do the actual racing. The problem is, when everyone concentrates on ratings is that they dont race the way they would naturally race.
The idea is to just race, race as best you can, then eventually as everyone settles into their natural ratings you will be matched up with equal racers (of course it also depends if there are enough people online to match up with).
Thats how I treated iRacing, just raced and see what happens next, it worked out well for me there and seems to be working out like this on GTS too.
Oh and sorry you wouldn't have seen me online, I'm at work trying to make this post with my boss looking over my shoulder
- 642
- Kissimmee, Florida
- wedjim
I know as a B driver I find it far more difficult to pass or even catch drivers in “most” races, unless they crash or get crashed. Starting 11th and finishing 9th or 10th getting boring.
1 out of 10 races I suddenly start on the pole and dominate, then next race back to 11th and battling after 4 laps for 10th or 9th. All with drivers from S to B rated....except the races I win, no S drivers in those, lol.
1 out of 10 races I suddenly start on the pole and dominate, then next race back to 11th and battling after 4 laps for 10th or 9th. All with drivers from S to B rated....except the races I win, no S drivers in those, lol.
I just want to say that I'm low DR A and mid DR A are much, much better drivers than I am. So even if I am matched with players of my DR, I could be 2-3 seconds slower per lap. Then you realize there are only under 4000 A drivers in the world, so 400-500 by region. Now they need to be racing at the same time on the same race and their SR has to match. So basically you are not matched with similarly skilled players because there is a lack of skilled players. Unless you want rooms with 3 people who are A/S, which sounds really boring. Also, I don't understand your point of dropping your DR to C to win games. Win at these lower ratings to you shouldn't mean anything, because you know you are way better than that. Dribbling a toddler is not an achievement. Big football clubs do not relegate themselves to second league to pick up easy wins. It's not rewarding at all because you don't gain anything from that.
- 798
- Vancouver
- Nando_deBem
I think people do that because of the trophies. So... as I see it, we shouldn’t worry. They’re gonna grab some trophies ,and then be gone. Every time they tank, serious people are gonna get their places in the ranks. That means, every time they tank, it’s going to be harder and harder for them to climb back. At one point, the ranking up then dropping is going to be restricted to their driving skills.
If they don’t stop first.
Why would you not qualify then? If you qualified and got pole (which you should do if you truly were a rank above the rest of the field) you would win and beat everyone because they are a lower rank than you.
Didn't win? Why not? Maybe you're ranked too high so you get a correction in the form of a DR drop.
If anything you're trying to game the system by not qualifying?
In an ideal room each player would qualify in order of DR rank. If they finish in the same order, they keep the same DR. They didn't win, they didn't lose. What makes the variations are:
1.people who fail to qualify (these people are at a disadvantage at the start)
2. People who qualify better than those with a higher DR rank (these people start the race with a DR advantage)
3.people quitting (could be better could mean nothing depending on the fields finishing position)
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Also I think the system is genius.
It encourages people to:
Qualify (so they don't lose DR rank)
Not to disconnect (lose DR and SR)
Not to farm SR (you lose DR rating quickly finishing places below your rank)
Not to nerf your DR (hard to get back up)
Drive clean (in SR:S you get matched with DR A/B/C/D which means it's easier to gain DR because a DR: D can gain by finishing 16th if a DR :S finishes 17th) < THIS IS ALSO A REASON TO NEVER QUIT
now it would be perfect if there were no disconnects and if you didn't get the odd crazy person in SR:S punting people off to nerf their SR but that's not PD's fault.
It encourages people to:
Qualify (so they don't lose DR rank)
Not to disconnect (lose DR and SR)
Not to farm SR (you lose DR rating quickly finishing places below your rank)
Not to nerf your DR (hard to get back up)
Drive clean (in SR:S you get matched with DR A/B/C/D which means it's easier to gain DR because a DR: D can gain by finishing 16th if a DR :S finishes 17th) < THIS IS ALSO A REASON TO NEVER QUIT
now it would be perfect if there were no disconnects and if you didn't get the odd crazy person in SR:S punting people off to nerf their SR but that's not PD's fault.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Well to be honest I dont, but thats because I have only just started on GTS.
Sorry I guess I need to give a bit of back story...I stopped playing GT just after 6 released and swapped all my racing to iRacing on PC, I got to a reasonably high level but had to stop due to starting a family, I havent done any competitive racing for over 3 years now
I got a PS4 for Christmas and thought a good way to get back into racing would be GT, I can see a lot of similarities with GTS and iRacing now, but the problems seem to be the same...Everyone cares more about their ratings than they do the actual racing. The problem is, when everyone concentrates on ratings is that they dont race the way they would naturally race.
The idea is to just race, race as best you can, then eventually as everyone settles into their natural ratings you will be matched up with equal racers (of course it also depends if there are enough people online to match up with).
Thats how I treated iRacing, just raced and see what happens next, it worked out well for me there and seems to be working out like this on GTS too.
Oh and sorry you wouldn't have seen me online, I'm at work trying to make this post with my boss looking over my shoulder
I've played a lot, getting near the 900 GT Sport races and it's still often a crapshoot whether it will be a close race, a hunt the rabbit, a parade, or a big mess. People playing the rankings is only partly responsible, matchmaking is just not very good when there aren't enough players to pick from at SR.S Hence the best results I've found for close races is lowering SR, or restricting yourself to playing during prime time.
Moving up or down also mostly relies on what matches you get placed into and how much effort you put into qualifying. Since races are so short, qualifying position is more than half of the race. I've done about 7 races in the daily B today in between other things without qualifying, consistently moved up 5 to 9 places, got a clean streak of 3 until someone forgot to brake before a corner, and lost 3500 DR points. Not that it matters to me, yet how is this system supposed to settle on grouping people of similar racing skill together if hot lapping skill is the primary criteria.
In the weekend I take the time to set a decent qualifying time and concentrate on the same track, as a result my DR shoots up. During the week it shrinks back down, repeat. Somewhere on the up draft in the weekend I find a couple good close races, so far that's still enough to keep me going. During the week racing from the back gives some nice close battles as well although usually it's just dodging accidents.
Btw 4 of my races today had a known grip bug DR.S driver at pole, 2s faster per lap. So winning was not an option anyway. People were calling him out, yet he just kept taking the win race after race. Not sure what he gets out of that.
Anyway I care about racing. Hot lapping is boring, yet I'll set a qualifying time in the weekend after running a couple races, then update it when my best lap keeps exceeding my qualifying time. At least that way I'm not the slow driver with a golden lap holding up traffic
See above, I don't qualify cause I rather spend my time racing. I'm usually multi tasking during the week, races start at :03, :23, :43, time for other stuff in between. Plus if I don't make the start in time at least I don't ruin the race by running off road without any controller input. And well, racing from last is still infinitely more exciting than hot lapping imo. Spending an hour qualifying and using that time all day, with a different car, that's just as much gaming the system.
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llllI've played a lot, getting near the 900 GT Sport races and it's still often a crapshoot whether it will be a close race, a hunt the rabbit, a parade, or a big mess. People playing the rankings is only partly responsible, matchmaking is just not very good when there aren't enough players to pick from at SR.S Hence the best results I've found for close races is lowering SR, or restricting yourself to playing during prime time.
Moving up or down also mostly relies on what matches you get placed into and how much effort you put into qualifying. Since races are so short, qualifying position is more than half of the race. I've done about 7 races in the daily B today in between other things without qualifying, consistently moved up 5 to 9 places, got a clean streak of 3 until someone forgot to brake before a corner, and lost 3500 DR points. Not that it matters to me, yet how is this system supposed to settle on grouping people of similar racing skill together if hot lapping skill is the primary criteria.
In the weekend I take the time to set a decent qualifying time and concentrate on the same track, as a result my DR shoots up. During the week it shrinks back down, repeat. Somewhere on the up draft in the weekend I find a couple good close races, so far that's still enough to keep me going. During the week racing from the back gives some nice close battles as well although usually it's just dodging accidents.
Btw 4 of my races today had a known grip bug DR.S driver at pole, 2s faster per lap. So winning was not an option anyway. People were calling him out, yet he just kept taking the win race after race. Not sure what he gets out of that.
Anyway I care about racing. Hot lapping is boring, yet I'll set a qualifying time in the weekend after running a couple races, then update it when my best lap keeps exceeding my qualifying time. At least that way I'm not the slow driver with a golden lap holding up traffic
See above, I don't qualify cause I rather spend my time racing. I'm usually multi tasking during the week, races start at :03, :23, :43, time for other stuff in between. Plus if I don't make the start in time at least I don't ruin the race by running off road without any controller input. And well, racing from last is still infinitely more exciting than hot lapping imo. Spending an hour qualifying and using that time all day, with a different car, that's just as much gaming the system.
you don't commit to working hard qualifying or playing the game but complain that the game doesn't reward you with DR for that tactic.
I see
P.s I also love running around at the back of the field seeing how many places I can make up, and as long as you cross the line ahead of a few drivers in a higher DR rank the game will reward you! NEVER QUIT!!!
Another reason the system is great is that it's teaching real motorsport situations but caters for all players really.
It splits the matchmaking according to :
People who just want to play bumper cars (SR D + E)
People who are keen to race fairly but are too inconsistent for the really fast rooms (SR C + B)
It doesn't matter which DR are in these races as the bumpers will bump and the racers with race.
Someone who deserves to be in SR A/S will avoid accidents (even if not their fault, overtake slower traffic safely with patience and not cut the track.
Ya'know, just like real motorsport
This game is trying to teach people that you don't necessarily have to come first to be a good driver, you just need to be quicker than those around you.
Think about F1, most of these drivers will never win a race but they all keep racing clean/fair etc and even though they are not all the same speed the racing is fun because sometimes a DR: C Force India driver beats a DR: S Ferrari driver even though it was only for 10th place! - but still they are all SR: S drivers - fair, consistent, quick thinking.
BTCC?... now that's definitely SR: E!
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