Draft of Proposed BC5 rules - please read and comment

[Duke]

1st) the team selection should be finalized before Scenario Selection...seeing those formed teams have to send their races...so first the team selection finishes, then there's a while for submitting proposals

Well, I initially had Team Selection ending on 30 June. Then I figured that teams might want to adjust membership based on the scenario selections... but it is a chicken-and-egg thing; I agree, we can probably wrap up the team selection first. I'll change it back.

2nd) the scenario selection itself is imho too long time...1 month for deciding what races to submit? that's a lot....we'd just need 10/15 days...

Well, I was assuming 2 weeks to come up with 10 proposals, a week for voting and compiling results, and a week for adjustments to avoid repeating tracks or cars. If you think this is too much we can consider reducing it, but I would like to see the proposals get tested a little so I included time for that.

I think it would be better if there will be 3-4 days between race deadlines. Obviously everyone drive as fast as they can but with few days between races a board can put extra attention after the results from previous races are posted.

Well, that may work, but if we go 3 days between deadlines, that's a whole month for the competition results, not counting the run time of the first rounds. If everyone thinks interest can be held that long, then I'm willing to extend it.

You might also publish the actual races moderately… (allows same time for each race)

I agree with this idea, BUT - since the scenario selection is done publicly by vote, there is no real way to stagger the starts unless I make the final selections privately and only announce them at the right time. This was also part of my reasoning to keep the deadlines close together - to limit the amount of extra time for later rounds.

I am open to suggestion on this subject, so I'd like to hear what more people think.

 

[IforceV8]

From what i have seen looking around the various race halls not being able to run races that are 6-9 laps long will restrict alot of choices.Also for the long race (10-20 laps) i have found few options that would comply with the current rules.

Is there a list someplace that breaks down all the races in GT4?

 

[Duke]

Ummm, there may be an event list in the FAQ thread on the GT4 board.

I don't want to restrict race choices; that's more important to me than standing on ceremony about race length. It is a subtle distinction anyway.

 

[The Missing Link]

I would have to put my vote in for race deadlines every other day. Of the three board challenges I have run in, I found the 'easiest', or most comfortable scenario was 48 hours per deadline.

Just my vote

 

[Duke]

That's what the newly-added preliminary schedule is counting on.
👍

 

[Sphinx]

So the current idea is to require 10 drivers, with petitions being considered for smaller teams on a case-by case basis. Correct?

👍

It would be nice if every board manages to get 10 drivers. I honestly don't think there will be much of a problem with the large amount of new GT4 drivers we have around at the moment, but at least we would have something in place to help them if a problem arises.

@Duke 👍

Thanks for listening 👍

 

[Dr GT]

Nice work Duke 👍

1.4: Proposal Categories are determined as follows (subject to revision):

1.4.1: Road Course – Race Car, Race Tires
1.4.2: Road Course – Street Car, Sport Tires
1.4.3: Street Course – Race Car, Race Tires
1.4.4: Street Course – Street Car, Sport Tires
1.4.5: Dirt / Snow Course – Rally Car, Dirt / Snow Tires
1.4.6: Wet Course – Car selection open
1.4.7: Long Course (Nurburgring/Le Sarthe) – Car selection open
1.4.8: Long Race (10-20 laps) – Track and Car Selection open (Nurburgring/Le Sarthe, Wet, Dirt, or Snow Tracks excluded)
1.4.9: Arcade Rally – Arcade Rally Car
1.4.10: Arcade Road Course – Arcade Race Car

There are a couple more categories that need to be in:

Street cars with road tires (Modern N2, Classic N1)
Race cars with sport S1 or road tires N3

Otherwise its all arcade racing and no sim racing

 

[Coyote]

Hello,

After some discussion, we found that August is not the best month. Everyone is on holiday

Racing during September would be better (unfortunately even required for GTweb to take part in BC5).

And if possible, 1 team per board, 10 drivers + 2 spares and only 1 race per driver.

Only our opinion of course

Regards
Coyote

 

[madbesl]

After some discussion, we found that August is not the best month. Everyone is on holiday.

Racing during September would be better.

I totally agree. 👍

Would be much easier for team SoGT to bring a team to BC5.

 

[Ricolamb]

we also have a problem with some drivers @ august...I'd prefer july really, if we managed to get everything going for the 1st of july then to 3rd week or end of july results, it'd be great...
dunno about september though...school restarts @ that time, and I hoped for summer because many of us have a lot more time

Rico

 

[eggmann]

August works great for GTBN. July would be too soon and half our team would be on vacation. September might work also.

 

[Hugo Boss]

I think september is the best time to let BC5 take place. To let it end in july is too soon (although with the speed of Duke... 👍 ) and a lot of people are on holidays during august. The summer holiday is over before you know it anyway, so it's not that far away

 

[NoQuarter]

Another vote for September...hopefully will give all the smaller teams time to field a full paddock.

 

[IforceV8]

GTN will have atleast 2 drivers on holiday in August so September might be a better option.

 

[GTmaniac]

we also have a problem with some drivers @ august...I'd prefer july really, if we managed to get everything going for the 1st of july then to 3rd week or end of july results, it'd be great...
dunno about september though...school restarts @ that time, and I hoped for summer because many of us have a lot more time

Rico

Same here
But whatever you decide...I just hope that it wont be after September... 👍 ,although that's a bit to far away as this has already started!(3 months waiting?)

 

[CFM]

Comment about the schedule:

Why not extend the team selection up until the actual voting begins for the events? There's no point in having the team selected 2-4 weeks ahead of the combo voting then everyone sitting around doing nothing the rest of the time.

I say, keep team selection open until the deadline for the rules to be finalized. This will give more time to smaller boards to find drivers, and give each board time to plan on the type of qualifying event they want to run and make sure all of thier drivers know what's going on. The team selection and rules discussion can be run concurrently as one has no effect on the other, and all of the team selections will be occuring at each team's home board anyway. Just have each team submit thier driver list on the same day that the rules are to be finalized, then the combo submissions and voting period can begin.

Thanks for changing the rule about the managers having to drive as I don't know if I want to or not yet.👍

 

[Tony Randall]

Hiya Duke,
Sorry to add to your headaches, Just want to clarify a couple of things that have got my tiny brain confused.

First Race Length.

1.4.11: Race Length: All Scenarios above will be run in either Short Race (3-5 laps) or Hot Lap (single fast lap on open track; no AI) format except the Long Race. Proposals shall indicate the format for each Scenario. It is the intent of these rules that races shall be 5 laps or less, except Long Races, which are 10 or more laps. Sprints and enduros require different strategies and this rule is intended to reflect that.

Q: I know it says "3-5 laps", but seeing the "5 Laps or less" got me muddled, Just want to know if 2 Lap races are allowed?.

Second Street Courses.
I've not seen the NTSC Version. But on the PAL version I'm reading them from the "City Courses" group.
Seoul Central / Tokyo R246 / Hong Kong / Clubman stage route 5 / SS Route 5 / New York / Seattle / Cote d' Azure / Opera Paris / George Paris / Cita di Aria / Costa di Amalfi (Capri) That right?

Sorry mate, and Thanks in advance 👍

 

[Didi]

Hello,

After some discussion, we found that August is not the best month. Everyone is on holiday

Racing during September would be better (unfortunately even required for GTweb to take part in BC5).

And if possible, 1 team per board, 10 drivers + 2 spares and only 1 race per driver.

Only our opinion of course

Regards
Coyote

I agree in all points ... 👍

 

[Duke]

Hiya Duke,
Sorry to add to your headaches, Just want to clarify a couple of things that have got my tiny brain confused.

First Race Length.

Q: I know it says "3-5 laps", but seeing the "5 Laps or less" got me muddled, Just want to know if 2 Lap races are allowed?.

Well, you're not unreasonably confused. You're right, it's not clear.

My intent was to have races 3-5 laps in length. 2 laps seems to me not that different from a 'hot lap' run so my consideration was to separate the categories into 3 distinct types: single laps, 3-5 laps, and 10+ laps.

It was only an attempt to differentiate the various types. If people wish to propose 2-lap runs and 6-9 lap runs I have no objection.

Second Street Courses.

I've not seen the NTSC Version. But on the PAL version I'm reading them from the "City Courses" group.
Seoul Central / Tokyo R246 / Hong Kong / Clubman stage route 5 / SS Route 5 / New York / Seattle / Cote d' Azure / Opera Paris / George Paris / Cita di Aria / Costa di Amalfi (Capri) That right?

That's correct. R246 is mostly open and flowing and is almost a road course, but I have no objection to including it here because it is technically a street course, as PD says.

I'd really like to see something run at Cita di Aria, but that's not a requirement in any way.

Sorry mate, and Thanks in advance 👍

Nothing to apologize for in any way, and it's my pleasure.

 

[Tony Randall]

Cheers Duke ! Man thats one swift reply, (Hope you're not this quick on track )
I was only wondering about the 2 lapers because the Family cups in GT mode (at some of the tracks) offer a nice little pot of combos with difficulty level and full tunning (if I remember right), but seem to be set at 2 laps.
As for Cita, I damn sure we'll see it thrown in the arena at somepoint.
Have a good Sunday 👍 Thanks Tone.

 

[eggmann]

1.4.12: Car Preparation: All Scenarios except Arcade Mode may include specified modifications, tunings, or setups. Proposals shall indicate list of car modifications or settings (if any) specified. Proposals shall indicate whether a virgin Oil Change is permitted or excluded.

Unless there is a way to verify that the specified settings are used, I don't think this would work.

 

[boombexus]

Hrmm, good point eggmann.

Without an up and running MK Program, how will we verify such things?

 

[eggmann]

HP Modifications, Weight Reductions, Tires, and Nitrous can be verified at the start of the Replay (provided there's not a cheat code to change these values in the replay), but all other mods I think will have to be allowed for all GT Mode events.

 

[Ricolamb]

indeed...unless some genious comes up with such a program right in time....

 

[samoht gtx]

HP Modifications, Weight Reductions, Tires, and Nitrous can be verified at the start of the Replay (provided there's not a cheat code to change these values in the replay), but all other mods I think will have to be allowed for all GT Mode events.

The competition already relies upon the idea that each driver only runs 1 or 2 out of the 10 events. Any board, especially the smaller ones, would gain a substantial edge by illicitly running their top 1 or 2 drivers in all races.

There is no sure way to police this rule, therefore the Board Challenge has to rely on honour. Each board will have to be responsible for competing fairly and honourably, and choose members who they can trust not to let them down by cheating.

Of course, replay review is an important tool in holding all racers to a common standard of 'clean'-ness, ie preventing accidental cheating. But there is no way to be sure of catching deliberate, devious cheating. So I suggest that we accept this, and work on trust, rather than tying ourselves in knots over it and limiting our options for racing.

 

[Duke]

Well said, samoht, and welcome to GTP! You are correct, there is an element of honor here. That's also why I made sure to include at least two arcade-car scenarios.

And Tony, have no fear, I'm dog-slow on track. In fact I don't expect to run at all in this series! I'm just trying to make sure this event goes smoothly.

 

[boombexus]

Yes samoht, there is a certain degree of honor, and I do think that we are all honorable people.

However, in light of past BC events, there will be some conflict and argumentation of the rules.
No I don't think that we can completely solve this, we must certainly try to avoid such situations as well as prepare ourselfs to deal with them.

Do you, or anyone else, have any ideas on the subject?

Please keep in mind that this is not a pointed question. I think that is prudent for us all to explore every avenue of this series and try to make it as efficient as possible.

 

[Duke]

OK, I've updated the rules above. I addressed (sort of) the honor issue, and I added an idea I had for Wild Card scenarios as an alternate to unpopular categories. Please take a look!

Two other areas that I believe could use some review are the Points system and the Penalty system. Please add your thoughts on those subjects.

 

[Sphinx]

2.1: Teams having difficulty recruiting 10 competitive members may request a waiver of this rule, to be considered by the BC5 Administration and the Team Managers.

This is fine Duke 👍 but I'm not sure about including the term "competitive members". Wouldn't this make work for ourselves if a team requests a waiver even though they are able to get 10 team members but feel some board members are not competitive enough. How do we define a 'competitive member'? A driver that won't put in 100% effort, or a driver that can't compete with the top drivers??

I've just got out of bed and need to get to work, so perhaps in my haste I've misunderstood the point. I'll look back in here after work, bye 👍

 

[Flinx]

Hi fellow racers, board challenge veterans and newbies.

I´ve taken part in the one or other board challenge and one thing that always hooked me up was the fact that most people see it as a team challenge (aka board) but it is organised as a single racers event.
If you would have a look at team based race series, Formula one comes into my mind, nobody is interested in the team world champion, the focus is on the driver championship (MS anyone).
Wouldn´t be there any chance to reorganise the challenge in a more team-friendlier way?
My thoughts see it more in a competition where two drivers of a team participate in one race, the times of the racers will be added and this compiled time will be the time for the appropriate board. Points will only handed out for the final place of the teams, finish.
Skip the fastest lap of the day (btw, which reward do you get for the fastest lap in R/L?) and you will have a team based competition.

I do now quit my dream and leave it up to the gent´s judgement here.