Draft of Proposed BC5 rules - please read and comment

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Duke

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PLEASE NOTE: These provisional rules are a DRAFT only. We are seeking input from all competitors and we welcome feedback. We have tried to create a good foundation on which we can begin discussion of the proposed Rounds, and avoid the problems of previous years.

Board Challenge 5 (BC5) is an international OnLine Racing (OLR) competition among a group of internet-based communities centered around the Gran Turismo game series. Each board will select a team of their fastest drivers and compete in a series of race or hot lap scenarios to determine the overall fastest board online.

BC5 will be conducted in Gran Turismo 4 because the game is new, no major OLR events have occurred using GT4 yet, and the freshness of the game may provide an interesting shakeup among the usual top finishers.

Draft version 1.0 of the 2005 BC5 rules appears below.

1.0 RACE SERIES

1.1: The BC5 competition will consist of a series of 10 Rounds. Each Round will be a single race or fast lap Scenario. The Scenarios will be divided into categories by Car Type, Course Type, Race Type, and/or Race Length, or a combination of these criteria.

1.2: Each Team will submit Proposals for all 10 Scenarios.

1.3: Each Round Scenario will be selected from the Proposals by popular vote among the Teams. Teams are prohibited from voting for more than 3 of their own Proposals. Teams will vote for their 10 favorite Proposals. The Wild Card Proposals (see 1.4.18 below) will be grouped in an 11th category. Any Team voting for a Wild Card Proposal may not vote for one race from one other category. If the Wild Card selection receives more votes than the least popular single Scenario, the Wild Card race will be substituted for that Round.

1.4: Proposal Categories are determined as follows (subject to revision):

1.4.1: Road Course – Race Car, Race Tires
1.4.2: Road Course – Street Car, Sport Tires
1.4.3: Street Course – Race Car, Race Tires
1.4.4: Street Course – Street Car, Sport Tires
1.4.5: Dirt / Snow Course – Rally Car, Dirt / Snow Tires
1.4.6: Wet Course – Car selection open
1.4.7: Long Course (Nurburgring/Le Sarthe) – Car selection open
1.4.8: Long Race (10-20 laps) – Track and Car Selection open (Nurburgring/Le Sarthe, Wet, Dirt, or Snow Tracks excluded)
1.4.9: Arcade Rally – Arcade Rally Car
1.4.10: Arcade Road Course – Arcade Race Car

1.4.11: Race Length: All Scenarios above will be run in either Short Race (2-5 laps) or Hot Lap (single fast lap on open track; no AI) format except the Long Race. Proposals shall indicate the format for each Scenario. It is the intent of these rules that races shall be 5 laps or less, except Long Races, which are 10 or more laps. Sprints and enduros require different strategies and this rule is intended to reflect that. However, Proposals for races 6-9 laps in length will be accepted.

1.4.12: Car Selection: All Scenarios shall use GT4-standard cars and tunings. Proposed cars must be available in all released local versions of the game (NTSC/PAL etc). Any and all hybrids are prohibited. Preference is given to cars that are purchasable; however, 100% all-car game saves are available for download in the event that a given Scenario uses a car available only as a prize.

1.4.12: Car Preparation: All Scenarios except Arcade Mode may include specified modifications, tunings, or setups. Proposals shall indicate list of car modifications or settings (if any) specified. Proposals shall indicate whether a virgin Oil Change is permitted or excluded.

1.4.13: Tires: All Scenarios except Arcade Mode may include a specified Tire and Tire Wear option (on or off). Proposals shall include this information.

1.4.14: Driver's Aids: Unless specified by the Scenario, Driver's Aids settings are at the discretion of the Driver.

1.4.15: Controllers: Controller and automatic/manual transmission choices are at the discretion of the Driver.

1.4.16: Drivability: Race Teams are advised to check the suitability and drivability of their Proposals before submitting them. Teams are also advised to check each Proposal before voting for it.

1.4.17: All Race Scenarios are to be run without Qualifying for position.

1.4.18: Wild Cards: In addition to the 10 Scenarios above, each Team may submit (at their discretion) a Wild Card Proposal. This is to allow teams a chance to make up their own scenario, and to allow a substitution in case one category proves unpopular. If this rule is deemed too complicated, it will be removed.

1.4.19: Arcade/GT Mode: It is the intent to have a minimum of 2 Rounds be held in Arcade Mode with fixed settings. The other rounds will probably be GT Mode due to greater flexibility. However, Teams may submit Arcade Mode proposals for any other Rounds they wish. These will be then be subject to popular vote along side the GT Mode proposals.

1.4.20: GT Mode Verification: All GT Mode cars shall have Nitrous Oxide systems installed but not used during the race. The intent of this rule is to provide visual confirmation that the race was run in GT Mode.

1.5: After Proposals have been received and compiled, adjustments will be made to avoid duplicating Track and Car selections. Adjustments will be made by consensus of Teams and BC5 administration. [deleted: Round Scenarios will be selected in the order presented above. As each race is selected, the Track and Car specified in that Scenario will become ineligible for use in a subsequent Scenario. In the event that the most popular selection in a subsequent Scenario specifies an ineligible Car or Track, the next most popular selection will be used.]

1.6: Points will be awarded to each Team/Driver per Round as follows:

1st: 30 pts
2nd: 27 pts
3rd: 25 pts
4th: 23 pts
5th: 21 pts
6th: 20 pts
7th: 19 pts
8th: 18 pts
9th: 17 pts
10th: 16 pts
11th: 15 pts
12th: 14 pts
13th: 13 pts
14th: 12 pts
15th: 11 pts
16th-25th: 10 pts -1 pt each place

Fastest Time Of Day (FTOD) Bonus: +2p (Hot Lap Scenarios excluded)

1.6.1: Championship: The Team standings will be indicated by the largest number of accumulated points per Team. In the event of ties, the Team with the largest number of 1st and/or 2nd place finishes will be declared the Champions.

2.0: RACE TEAMS

2.1: Team Composition: Each Team will consist [ deleted: a minimum of 5 Drivers and a maximum] of 10 Drivers, plus 2 Alternates. These Drivers and Alternates shall be designated and submitted to the BC5 Administration prior to the final selection of Scenario Proposals. Team members will have access to a public BC5 general discussion board for rules, updates, and results. Teams having difficulty recruiting 10 competitive members may request a waiver of this rule, to be considered by the BC5 Administration and the Team Managers.

2.2: Team Administration: Each Team shall designate a Manager [deleted: Captain] who shall be the spokesperson and contact for the Team when dealing with the BC5 Administration. Each Team shall also designate a Comanager to serve as backup in the event the Manger becomes unavailable. Managers may or may not participate as a Driver, at the Team's discretion. [delete: Captains and Cocaptains are considered Drivers and must participate in a minimum of 1 Round.] Managers will have access to a staff-only BC5 board for discussion of relevant topics.

2.3: Team Participation: Each Driver shall participate in 1 Round. [deleted: a minimum of 1 Round and a maximum of 2 Rounds.] except in small Teams with a waiver. Alternate Drivers may participate in a maximum of 1 Round. Teams do not need to specify which Driver will run which Round, but only the maximum number of times will be accepted from each Driver.

2.4: Team Selection: Each Team shall select its Drivers at its own discretion. No Driver shall serve on more than 1 Team. Each Board may enter more than 1 Team, subject to the criteria above.

2.5: Support personnel: Each team may have additional participants in support of the official Drivers. Support may take any form except the actual running of the submitted time. The number of support personnel is not limited, and support personnel do not need to be identified to BC5 Administration.

3.0: RACE RULES

3.1: All rules below are subject to replay verification by a Review Committee via normal in-game means. In the event that in-game means cannot clearly resolve the issue, additional means such as slow-motion video recording may be used at the discretion of the BC5 administration and the Review Committee.

3.2: The Review Committee (RC) shall consist of the BC5 Administration, the Team Captains and/or qualified non-participants. The composition of the RC shall be determined before the first race begins.

3.3: The intent of the BC5 is to promote 100% clean times. However, the rules acknowledge that 100% clean racing is nearly impossible in events involving AI and more than a few laps in duration. A penalty system is described below to deal with minor infractions. However, blatant disregard or violation of the rules below, such as grass cutting, wall riding, or severe or beneficial AI contact (purposeful or not) [deleted: AI ramming], shall be grounds for immediate disqualification (DQ) of the submitted time without further review.

3.4: Track Definition: The 'Track' is defined as all paved areas, including curbs and rumble strips. Pit Roads are not considered 'paved area' except in races with tire wear on. Any paved area of track delineated 'out of bounds' by cones or temporary markers, such as stretches of track that shortcut a chicane, are not considered 'paved area'.

3.5: Off-track position: At least 2 tires must remain on or directly over the paved surface of the track at all times. Should the car leave contact with the ground, the flight path must maintain an acceptable line as if the tires were in contact. Should all 4 tires leave the paved area, it shall be deemed an Off. Dirt or Snow events are excluded from this rule.

3.6: Wall Contact: Any change of direction or speed not a result of normal control inputs, when in the vicinity of a wall or barrier, shall be deemed a Wall Touch. Wall Touches shall be prohibited or penalized depending upon the format of the race, as indicated below.

3.7: Invisible Walls: Invisible walls have not been well identified in GT4 to date. Any known invisible walls should be submitted prior to the first race. Should any be identified during the series, the Review Committee will publish a determination after discussing the matter.

3.8: AI Contact: Any change of direction or speed not a result of normal control inputs, when in the vicinity of an AI car, shall be deemed an AI Touch. Any contact that is beneficial to the Driver (such as being bump drafted under acceleration, rear ending under deceleration, or riding corners inside AI cars) shall be grounds for immediate disqualification (DQ) of the submitted time without further review. Non-beneficial AI Touches shall be prohibited or penalized depending upon the format of the race, as indicated below.

3.9: Time Penalties: Inadvertent minor Offs or Touches shall be assessed time penalties as indicated below. In the case of Hot Laps and FTOD submissions, the Driver has the option of submitting a slower but 100% clean lap replay in order to avoid the penalty assessment.

3.9.1: Hot Laps and FTODs: Given the nature of Hot Lap scenarios, these laps shall be 100% clean. Any Offs or Wall Touches shall result in disqualification of the submitted time. Driver may submit an alternate lap as Hot Lap or FTOD provided it is 100% clean.

3.9.2: Short Races (less than 5 laps): Any Offs or Wall Touches that are not the result of AI disturbance are prohibited and will result in disqualification of the submitted time. Offs, Wall Touches, and non-beneficial AI Touches as a result of AI disturbance (avoidance or unintentional contact) shall be assessed a penalty as follows:

1 Off or Touch: no penalty
2 Offs or Touches: 1.0 second total penalty
3 Offs or Touches: 3.0 second total penalty
4 or more Offs or Touches: DQ

3.9.3: Long Races (more than 10 laps) and Long Track Races: Offs, Wall Touches, and non-beneficial AI Touches shall be assessed a penalty as follows:

2 or less Offs or Touches: no penalty
3 Offs or Touches: 0.5 second total penalty
4 Offs or Touches: 1.0 second total penalty
5 Offs or Touches: 2.0 second total penalty
6 Offs or Touches: 4.0 second total penalty
7 or more Offs or Touches: DQ

3.10 Failure to comply with the rules above, or failure to follow the specified car, setup, track, and race conditions for the Round, will result in a Did Not Finish (DNF) and zero points for the Round.

3.11 Due to the lack of an MK-type program for GT4, all participants are on their honor to comply with all rules and scenarios. It is expected that all participants will behave within the spirit of this competition. The alternative is to have all rounds run in Arcade mode. The BC5 Administration prefers to trust the competitors.

4.0: TIME AND REPLAY SUBMITTALS

4.1: Time submittals: The times submitted shall be the time saved and indicated in the replay file itself. No other time source (such as Diary or Analyzer) shall be accepted. Managers or Co-managers must submit times for each Round to the BC5 Administration no later than the announced deadline. In the event that a Manager or Co-manager is unavailable, Drivers may submit their times directly to the Administration. Any times received after the announced deadline will result in a Did Not Finish (DNF) and zero points for the Round. Each time submittal must include the following information:

Team Name
Driver Name
Round #
Total Elapsed Time (ET)
Individual laptimes for multi-lap races

4.2: Replay submittals: All times must be verified by a submitted replay file. Preferred method is via Xport/Sharkport v2 or Max Drive file emailed to the BC5 Administrators or Review Committee at the designated email address (bc5admin@gmail.com). Drivers without these devices may physically mail a memory card containing the replay to their Team Managers for electronic forwarding. Replays submitted by any means must be received no more than 10 calendar days after the Round deadline. Each replay file must include the following in the Comments section:

Team Name
Driver Name
Round #

4.3: Deadlines: Deadlines are to be determined by discussion among Teams and the BC5 Administration. It is intended that the race series will be run over a period of a few weeks leading up to the first deadline, with each successive round deadline falling at 48-hour [deleted: 24-hour] intervals. This is to allow Drivers some flexibility over when they run their race while maintaining the suspense and excitement at deadline time.

4.4: Results publication: Provisional results will be announced as soon as feasible after the Round deadline. This is a volunteer organization and we will make every effort to announce the winners as soon as possible. However, we cannot guarantee that results will be available in a given time frame. Official results will be released as soon as replay verification has been completed for all entries.

4.5: An email address or web site will be provided for time and replay submittal purposes. All Review Committee members will be given access to this location.

5.0: MISCELLANEOUS

5.1: Questions or comments concerning the rules are invited during the early stages of the organization process. The BC5 Administration will make every effort to solve any issues in a way that is fair and agreeable to all participants. Should problems arise while the competition is under way, the BC5 administration will work with the Team Captains in order to determine the appropriate course of resolution.

5.2: Preliminary Schedule:
  • Rules/Category Finalization - now through 1 July 2005
  • Team Selection - now through 15 August 2005
  • Scenario Submittal - 1 July through 8 August 2005
  • Voting & Finalization - 8 August through 1 September 2005
  • Races Begin - 1 September
  • Deadlines - 10 September through 30 September - 1 Round every 48 hours
  • Results - 30 September Provisional; 10 October Final pending verifications
 
Hi everybody here !

Sorry for my bad english, i've not seen any date for the competition ?

It will take time for me to understand the rules :)
 
Wow, that is an awfully thorough "draft", Duke! A few things I noticed:

Duke
3.9.2: Short Races (less than 5 laps):
3.9.3: Long Races (more than 10 laps) and Long Track Races:


Could these two be clarified? Would a five-lapper be considered a short race (thus it should read "up to and including 5 laps"), and long races be considered "10 or more"? Also, I'm doubting it'll be an issue, but what if a race falls between five and ten? ;)

Also, am I reading it right that the team admins (Captains and cocaptains) are responsible for all the time submissions? That could raise some problems when it comes to last-minute submittals.

Which brings me to the final thought I had: Last-minute stuff probably will happen if there's people running more than one event. Especially if the deadlines are only 24h apart. I remember the BC2 had each driver do two races, and put the deadlines two days apart. Just an idea.

Those are all the things I could come up with though, other than that it gets two big 👍's from me.
 
1.3: Each Round Scenario will be selected from the Proposals by popular vote among the Teams. Teams are prohibited from voting for more than 3 of their own Proposals.

Teams should not be permitted to vote on any of their own races.We would end up with ever team picking their race first and the race we end up with will be the leftovers.

1.4.14: Driver's Aids: Unless specified by the Scenario, Driver's Aids settings are at the discretion of the Driver.

The scenario should'nt be the determining factor here,the rules of the series should.



1.5: Round Scenarios will be selected in the order presented above. As each race is selected, the Track and Car specified in that Scenario will become ineligible for use in a subsequent Scenario. In the event that the most popular selection in a subsequent Scenario specifies an ineligible Car or Track, the next most popular selection will be used.

This rule sucked last time,we ended up doing a combo that teams wasted a vote on,and didnt really want to run.With all the new combos available in GT4 this is unlikely to happen but the rule still sucks.



1st: +20p
2nd: +16p
3rd: +12p
4th: +8p
5th: +7p
6th: +6p
7th: +5p
8th: +4p
9th: +3p
10th: +2p

Fastest Time Of Day (FTOD) Bonus: +2p (Hot Lap Scenarios excluded)

Its alittle top-heavy and with the bonus included the series becomes all about winning and nothing else matters.Maybe a more balanced approach

20
17
14
12
10
8
7
6
5
4
----
3
2
1
+1 point for fast lap

2.2: Team Administration: Each Team shall designate a Captain who shall be the spokesperson and contact for the Team when dealing with the BC5 Administration. Each Team shall also designate a Cocaptain to serve as backup in the event the Captain becomes unavailable. Captains and Cocaptains are considered Drivers and must participate in a minimum of 1 Round. Captains and Cocaptains will have access to a captains-only BC5 board for discussion of relevant topics.

Captain's are busy enough in these things and shouldnt be required by law to race. Let management manage and racers race.

1.4.7: Long Course (Nurburgring/Le Sarthe) – Car selection open.

Wanna save some time and just make the race Green Hell ;) and leave Lemans available for 4.8?
 
Wow, Looks a very sound draft all in all 👍

I very much like the freedom of rule 2.1
2.1: Team Composition: Each Team will consist of a minimum of 5 Drivers and a maximum of 10 Drivers, plus 2 Alternates.
This gives teams or boards who may struggle to find a full team a chance at least of entering 👍

Only thing I would comment on at this point is rule 2.2
2.2: Team Administration: Each Team shall designate a Captain who shall be the spokesperson and contact for the Team when dealing with the BC5 Administration. Each Team shall also designate a Cocaptain to serve as backup in the event the Captain becomes unavailable. Captains and Cocaptains are considered Drivers and must participate in a minimum of 1 Round.
I think some boards may have great organisers that would fill a captains role well. But may not be particularly fast on track, I think this rule may put them off possibly, especially (as SlipZtrEm points out) that they are deemed responsible for submitting thier drivers time on the deadline, as well as running thier own race/s. Not moaning, but just as feedback, I think it might be more flexible if captains and co captains were free to chose if they race or just act as good administration with the BC admins

appart from that it's looking good 👍
 
Im ok with tony randall, manage a team is very different than running for his. I really think it's totally different.
 
I don't have any objection to dropping the requirement that the Captain drives. I just thought it made it a little more interesting, and maybe a little tougher.

Perhaps we'll delete the requirement and change the title to Manager.

@iForceV8: My intent in allowing teams to vote for a limited number of their own propositions - less than half - was to prevent the effect you describe. With teams only allowed to vote for their three favorite of their own proposals, they still must vote for 7 of somebody else's. However, I can't say that I will rigidly stick on this rule if there is opposition.

Also, your point is taken on the 'lockout' of car/track combinations. I assumed that this would be an unlikely rule to come into play. Perhaps we should wait to see the proposed scenarios before we determine policy on this.

@TonyR and Boom: My intent was to have races 5 laps or less or 10 laps or more. Anything else is sort of annoyingly in-between. Either a race is a sprint or an enduro, and each has different compromises in attack and setup. So I didn't intend for any 6-9 lap races. I'll clarify the wording.
 
Ive been playing around with this idea tonight and wonder what peoples thoughts are about it.Since its pretty safe to say that virtually every driver that has ran a BC race in the past has done lots of hot lapping preparing for their particular race,and in doing so those laps at the end are pretty much useless to the person that drove them unless the combo presented a chance for a database submission i propose the following.

In the day before each race each driver runs a qualifing lap in free run-100% clean per hotlap rules.Each race would be a 2 day event,day 1 is pole day and the results of that create a virtual race grid.Day 2 is race day with the qualifing order setting the grid for the race.Each driver from P2 to P10 would have a .50 sec handicap added to their race time per position on the grid.

Example
Start P4-grid handicap +1.50 sec
Start P7-grid handicap +3.00 sec


The pole winner would have no handicap time and would receive 1 bonus point.


Of course this would also mean that a hot lap as a BC race would no longer apply.However requiring a hot lap and a race would be a better test for all the drivers,and a more realistic feel to the series.I know doing this doubles the length of the series but having some intrigue about who will win a round based on qualifing might liven the show up some.

Rules for qualifing would be simple,run the softest tire compound available for that particular race-S3 and R5's with the car in the same spec as in the race.Any times that seem too fast would be easy to spot based on top speeds and corner speeds.

Penalty for a out-of-spec qualifing run would be that driver would be moved to the back of the grid (P10-+4.50 sec) plus an additional 5 sec penalty added to the race time.A DQ from that race could also be used but if the mistake was accidental then that might be too extreme.
 
Boards should only be allowed 1 team, otherwise the board winner will be the one with the most teams.
 
But... correct me if I'm wrong here... wouldn't this system make slower drivers even slower and faster drivers even faster?
 
I would have to second (third?) the motion about having the captain/cocaptain requirement of driving removed. There have been several teams that have a dedicated member, who knows their way around the GT community at large very thoroughly, but are otherwise slow and would rather have a faster driver take their place in racing.

This one is just being picky...
wall riding, or AI ramming, shall be grounds
To keep with 'formal language' this might be changed to;
AI Contact, Severe AI Contact, Use of the AI for better times
... basically I think there are several ways to say it a little more eloquently, as I understand that minor, non-advantageous AI contact is generally acceptable, especially in JGTC, DTC, IROC, etc closed wheel racing forms, and thus is usually permissible in OLR.

I really think this:
1 Off or Touch: no penalty
2 Offs or Touches: 1.0 second total penalty
3 Offs or Touches: 3.0 second total penalty
4 or more Offs or Touches: DQ
Should be changed to:
1 Off or Touch: 1.0 second total penalty
2 Offs or Touches: 3.0 second total penalty
3 Offs or Touches: DQ
Or something similar, less than 5 laps has always meant 100%, with the acception (usually) of the minor AI contact(s) so long as they are deemed legitimate.

Everything else looks pretty good, although some of the pickier people will most definitely find other things :P
 
AFter reading further (sorry for the double post, but it is relevant to something else), I like IForce's idea, but with one minor change...

Instead of it being in increase of 0.500 per qualifying place, starting at 0.000 for pole position, whynot incorporate the actual qualifying time.

So, for an example with 4 drivers:
Qualifying times:
A - 1.06.057
B - 1.06.183
C - 1.06.373
D - 1.06.988

Race Times:
C - 5.41.197
A - 5.41.863
B - 5.42.569
D - 5.42.762

Results:
C - 6.47.570
A - 6.47.920
B - 6.48.752
D - 6.49.750

Which like Jim said, could make for some very exciting rounds.
 
Duke
Also, your point is taken on the 'lockout' of car/track combinations. I assumed that this would be an unlikely rule to come into play. Perhaps we should wait to see the proposed scenarios before we determine policy on this.

No... Policies should be as firm as possible before the start of the competition. When the competition starts and rules start changing, drivers (and sometimes entire teams) lose some trust in the adminstration, and often get cranky. :sly:
 
The Missing Link
AFter reading further (sorry for the double post, but it is relevant to something else), I like IForce's idea, but with one minor change...

Instead of it being in increase of 0.500 per qualifying place, starting at 0.000 for pole position, whynot incorporate the actual qualifying time.

So, for an example with 4 drivers:
Qualifying times:
A - 1.06.057
B - 1.06.183
C - 1.06.373
D - 1.06.988

Race Times:
C - 5.41.197
A - 5.41.863
B - 5.42.569
D - 5.42.762

Results:
C - 6.47.570
A - 6.47.920
B - 6.48.752
D - 6.49.750

Which like Jim said, could make for some very exciting rounds.
Interesting idea 💡 Any penalty for a infraction could be used here by taking the slowest time and adding 5 seconds.

eggmann-The Captains forum could get very dull without something to complain about. :lol:
 
Duke
But... correct me if I'm wrong here... wouldn't this system make slower drivers even slower and faster drivers even faster?
Winning the pole doesnt guarantee victory.Some might choose to focus more on race strategy then doing a fast lap and the hotlappers might not be as good on yellow/red tires.
 
Now that I look at my example, two things stand out as strange... one; I made up all those numbers 'off the hip' yet three final times ended in .xx0. Two; I had initially meant to show that even though "A" drove a slower race time, because he outqualified B and C he still beat them...

But I think you all get the idea :P

I can't imagine what a dull Captain's forum would be like... "Military Intelligence" anyone?
 
Small_Fryz
Boards should only be allowed 1 team, otherwise the board winner will be the one with the most teams.

Seconded. My reasoning is that the BC's have always been about the "best of the best". By allowing boards as many teams as possible, you're watering down the "Race of Champions" style that I've always believed was the centre of the event. I don't mean this as any disrespect to slower drivers, but I always thought it was about bringing your best drivers to represent your entire board. Not actually bringing your entire board ;)

Although if the multiple teams rule is kept, there is a way to ensure the winning board is not simply the one with the most teams. Some simple math and averages could help there (I can't think about that all right now, but surely someone would figure it out in no time :)).

Personally, I don't like the idea of qualifying either. More extra work, and Hot Laps would cease to exist. I understand Hot Laps themselves aren't really the utmost realistic racing style, but it is an aspect of GT that requires skill just like the longer races. Qualifying puts a lot more pressure on people, and for the most part, I don't think it would affect results too much. The quickest people tend to be quickest qualifying too; there might be a bit of change, but generally it will only create more of a gap.

All IMO, of course :)
 
Any particular reason that BC5 has to be all GT4 or is it just because its the latest version. Just wondering. It could be interesting if It could be any version of GT. Replay verified of course.
 
2.1: Team Composition: Each Team will consist of a minimum of 5 Drivers and a maximum of 10 Drivers,

2.3: Team Participation: Each Driver shall participate in a minimum of 1 Round and a maximum of 2 Rounds. Alternate Drivers may participate in a maximum of 2 Rounds.

I'm not sure about these two I'm afraid. Wouldn't that create a senario of the fastest team members running twice and the slower ones running only once and even some not running at all? IMO this wouldn't show the the quaility of a board team, but more of the quaility of individuals.

I can understand if it was clear from the outset that a certain board was having problems raising 10 drivers and therefore this proposed ruling could then be put into action to allow smaller boards to take part. However, boards such as the GTP that boast huge memberships numbers for example and therefore wouldn't have any trouble finding 10 team drivers and therefore wouldn't require such a ruling.
 
Regarding AI touching:

I think many people will vouch for the fact that even in real life racing when people overtake another person, on the inside, they sometimes tend to lean on that person being overtaken.

It is intentional but not really that dangerous. if you look at DTM for example its done all the time, no questions asked.

I say because of the following rule:

"3.8: AI Contact: Any change of direction or speed not a result of normal control inputs, when in the vicinity of a wall, shall be deemed an AI Touch. Any contact that is beneficial to the Driver (such as being bump drafted under acceleration, rear ending under deceleration, or riding corners inside AI cars) shall be grounds for immediate disqualification (DQ) of the submitted time without further review. Non-beneficial AI Touches shall be prohibited or penalized depending upon the format of the race, as indicated below."

I think that "or riding corners inside AI cars" should be taken out for endurance races.

I also think that "non-beneficial" AI contact should NOT be penalised if its blatently obvious that the contact the driver recieved from the AI slowed him/her down but not enough to compromise their entire race.

say for example you doing an endurance race and the AI that you have lapped hit you from behind under braking on the last lap. the resultant tap/hit/smash cost you 0.3 seconds.

the fact that you lost time should already be regarded as big enough penalty and not be penalised even more for something that is out of your control as a driver.
 
kart.no.38
Regarding AI touching:

I think many people will vouch for the fact that even in real life racing when people overtake another person, on the inside, they sometimes tend to lean on that person being overtaken.

It is intentional but not really that dangerous. if you look at DTM for example its done all the time, no questions asked.

I say because of the following rule:

"3.8: AI Contact: Any change of direction or speed not a result of normal control inputs, when in the vicinity of a wall, shall be deemed an AI Touch. Any contact that is beneficial to the Driver (such as being bump drafted under acceleration, rear ending under deceleration, or riding corners inside AI cars) shall be grounds for immediate disqualification (DQ) of the submitted time without further review. Non-beneficial AI Touches shall be prohibited or penalized depending upon the format of the race, as indicated below."

I think that "or riding corners inside AI cars" should be taken out for endurance races.

I also think that "non-beneficial" AI contact should NOT be penalised if its blatently obvious that the contact the driver recieved from the AI slowed him/her down but not enough to compromise their entire race.

say for example you doing an endurance race and the AI that you have lapped hit you from behind under braking on the last lap. the resultant tap/hit/smash cost you 0.3 seconds.

the fact that you lost time should already be regarded as big enough penalty and not be penalised even more for something that is out of your control as a driver.

From my experience with BC and like challenges, we don't generally allow this for the following reasons:

- this is not a one-off race. People can rerun infinitely, and often come pretty close to doing so. That makes the requirement of no AI touch feasible
- the requirement of no AI touch is also desired because the discussion about whether a certain AI touch was ok or not is too subjective, and frequently ends up in a mess.
- the game does not simulate damage, reducing the natural care and risk for people not to touch other cars.

As for the team size, I would stick with the 10 driver limit with 2 optional spare drivers. The size of this competition with just 10 teams of 10 drivers is already quite huge, and if you allow teams of 5 drivers, it will get worse. I also second the suggestion of one team per board. Remaining quality drivers can always join the team of other boards that have trouble getting a 10 driver team together.

In short, it's one of the BC traditions I wouldn't mess with.
 
I agree also on the 1 team per board subject! ... no need for team A, B,C etc.. just put your best 10 available drivers forward and enjoy the comp :)

Good luck to all teams ... cya's on the track 👍
 
Hi Duke/ fellas,
sorry if I'm swaying like a branch in the wind here. At first I though the minimum of 5 drivers was a great idea especially for smaller boards to get an oportuninty to field a team, but as many have pointed out there are possible flaws. For example a team could just pick it's best five "super fast flyers" and double up on the races... nothing wrong with that imo, but it might end up an elite battle, rather than a true reflection of a whole board. So although it looks like we might not be able to make the party with a full 10, I'd have to lean in favour of 10 drivers, as a tried and trusted format.

Also, if 2 teams per board are allowed, I think some system or proviso should be put in place (can't think what) but something to even up the balance so that quantity doesn't outweight quality come the final result.

Just my two cents. Keep up the great work Duke.
Right back to the recruiting drive now :)
 
TML
So, for an example with 4 drivers:
Qualifying times:
A - 1.06.057
B - 1.06.183
C - 1.06.373
D - 1.06.988

Race Times:
C - 5.41.197
A - 5.41.863
B - 5.42.569
D - 5.42.762

Results:
C - 6.47.570
A - 6.47.920
B - 6.48.752
D - 6.49.750

Which like Jim said, could make for some very exciting rounds.

This one is really interesting, I like it

GT3Mich
Any particular reason that BC5 has to be all GT4 or is it just because its the latest version. Just wondering. It could be interesting if It could be any version of GT. Replay verified of course.
Yesterday 10:51 PM

I think we had many bc's on gt3 already...many guys don't have gt1 and gt2 (so they're out, also for verifying side), many don't like GTC...and GT4P is entirely present in GT4...so I don't see any need to allow other games for racing, I think we should stick to the new one, wich is the reason we're having a BC so soon this year

Rico
 
Tony Randall
Hi Duke/ fellas,
sorry if I'm swaying like a branch in the wind here. At first I though the minimum of 5 drivers was a great idea especially for smaller boards to get an oportuninty to field a team, but as many have pointed out there are possible flaws. For example a team could just pick it's best five "super fast flyers" and double up on the races... nothing wrong with that imo, but it might end up an elite battle, rather than a true reflection of a whole board. So although it looks like we might not be able to make the party with a full 10, I'd have to lean in favour of 10 drivers, as a tried and trusted format. :)

My thoughts exactly Tony 👍 (nice to see you again mate :) )

I would however like to propose that if the proposed rulings 2.1 is applied, that it is then only appiled when it's clear that a certain board has a problem in finding the required 10 drivers and thus allowing them to have a required number of drivers to run twice in order to make up the difference in numbers. ?? (This should only be applied after the race organisers have assessed the problem and accepted a requset from a board for this rule to be used.)

IMO we don't need to create a so-called 'elite group' from an already elite group of drivers and end up having the elite of the elite driving twice and the elite just once or even not at all.

Thanks for reading :)
 
OK, I see the point about the minimum of 10 drivers. Silly me, I rather figured that honor would prevent that rule from getting abused while allowing smaller teams a chance to participate.

So the current idea is to require 10 drivers, with petitions being considered for smaller teams on a case-by case basis. Correct?

@ GT3Mich: I wrote a short note about the topic of GT4 last night, but perhaps I never actually hit the Submit button. I am very strongly in favor of keeping this a GT4-only competition for several reasons:
  • It may shake up the usual pecking order and allow for less predicatbale results.
  • It's the new game on the block.
  • It has a much larger array of cars and tracks from which to pick 10 rounds.
There are other reasons, but those cover the basics.

On the subject of deadlines, my thought was that practice could begin as soon the 10 rounds are finalized. Allow, say, 3 weeks for open running, with the deadlines following, staggered every 24 hours over a period of 10 days.

We can arrange the 10 rounds in order of race length/difficulty so that any hot laps and 'easier' scenarios would have the early deadlines, and the difficult ones by default getting more time by dint of having a later deadline.

Does this seem feasible?

So here's my basic schedule (subject to much review and revision):
  • Rules/Category Finalization - now through 30 June 2005
  • Team Selection - now through 30 July 2005
  • Scenario Selection - 1 July through 30 July 2005
  • Races Begin - 1 August 2005 through 20 August
  • Deadlines - 21 August through 30 August
  • Final Results - 1 September provisional; 14 September pending verifications
Again, this is a draft; please feel free to comment at will.
 
Duke
So here's my basic schedule (subject to much review and revision):
  • Rules/Category Finalization - now through 30 June 2005
  • Team Selection - now through 30 July 2005
  • Scenario Selection - 1 July through 30 July 2005
  • Races Begin - 1 August 2005 through 20 August
  • Deadlines - 21 August through 30 August
  • Final Results - 1 September provisional; 14 September pending verifications
Again, this is a draft; please feel free to comment at will.


[*] Rules/Category Finalization - now through 30 June 2005 – only 3 weeks??? GL with that.

[*] Team Selection - now through 30 July 2005 – 2 weeks should be enough IMO

[*] Scenario Selection - 1 July through 30 July 2005 – 1 week for teams to submit / 1 week of voting; 2 weeks should be enough.

[*] Races Begin - 1 August 2005 through 20 August
[*] Deadlines - 21 August through 30 August

I think it would be better if there will be 3-4 days between race deadlines. Obviously everyone drive as fast as they can but with few days between races a board can put extra attention after the results from previous races are posted.

You might also publish the actual races moderately… (allows same time for each race)
 
Duke
On the subject of deadlines, my thought was that practice could begin as soon the 10 rounds are finalized. Allow, say, 3 weeks for open running, with the deadlines following, staggered every 24 hours over a period of 10 days.

We can arrange the 10 rounds in order of race length/difficulty so that any hot laps and 'easier' scenarios would have the early deadlines, and the difficult ones by default getting more time by dint of having a later deadline.

so far it sounds just perfect to me...

Duke
Does this seem feasible?

So here's my basic schedule (subject to much review and revision):
  • Rules/Category Finalization - now through 30 June 2005
  • Team Selection - now through 30 July 2005
  • Scenario Selection - 1 July through 30 July 2005
  • Races Begin - 1 August 2005 through 20 August
  • Deadlines - 21 August through 30 August
  • Final Results - 1 September provisional; 14 September pending verifications

...but the draft of schedule doesn't look too good to me...

1st) the team selection should be finalized before Scenario Selection...seeing those formed teams have to send their races...so first the team selection finishes, then there's a while for submitting proposals
2nd) the scenario selection itself is imho too long time...1 month for deciding what races to submit? :embarrassed: that's a lot....we'd just need 10/15 days...

Rico
 
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