Drag Racing

[Schue7683]

Yeah.........the word "civic" is a waste of time in a racing forum, because it simply doesn't have and never will the true potential to be a drag car. The import racing league can stretch as much out of those lil 4-bangers as they want, just let them know every time you see them that there is.............

NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT.

And remind them with a smoky burnout

Tony
Proud owner of a '73 Charger
Proud son of a man who owns three HEMI cars, and an AAR Cuda

 

[Crayola]

Yeah.........the word "civic" is a waste of time in a racing forum, because it simply doesn't have and never will the true potential to be a drag car. The import racing league can stretch as much out of those lil 4-bangers as they want, just let them know every time you see them that there is.............

NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT.

And remind them with a smoky burnout

Tony
Proud owner of a '73 Charger
Proud son of a man who owns three HEMI cars, and an AAR Cuda

Dude, there are several replacements for displacement. Compression, Boost and RPM. If you can get a 5+L engine to 20K RPM I'll give you 10 dollars.

 

[98cobra]

Dude, there are several replacements for displacement. Compression, Boost and RPM. If you can get a 5+L engine to 20K RPM I'll give you 10 dollars.

5L don't need to rev that high to make power.

 

[Crayola]

5L don't need to rev that high to make power.

Wrong: Power = (torque x rpm)/~7023
Torque will increase with larger compression ratios or boost, therfore high RPM + high boost >> Low RPM V8

 

[98cobra]

Wrong: Power = (torque x rpm)/~7023
Torque will increase with larger compression ratios or boost, therfore high RPM + high boost >> Low RPM V8

True, but how much power are we talkin'?

 

[Crayola]

True, but how much power are we talkin'?

Lets say we have a 2L WRX engine and a 5.7L LS1 - Both producing 300NM (or lb.ft as long as the values are the same on both), mounted on the same chassis. To accelerate fastest (important in drag racing) you want to be able to remain in each gear for as long as possible because lower gears have a greater amount of torque at the wheels (force multiplier). NA engine tend to have a peak in their torque curve - after which it tends to drop quickly, this means they have to shift up except in 2nd gear you lose a great deal of mechanical advantage. Turbo engine generally have a much more level torque curve, so after the initial lag they are able to stay in gear for much longer, therefore accelerating quicker.

 

[98cobra]

Lets say we have a 2L WRX engine and a 5.7L LS1 - Both producing 300NM (or lb.ft as long as the values are the same on both), mounted on the same chassis. To accelerate fastest (important in drag racing) you want to be able to remain in each gear for as long as possible because lower gears have a greater amount of torque at the wheels (force multiplier). NA engine tend to have a peak in their torque curve - after which it tends to drop quickly, this means they have to shift up except in 2nd gear you lose a great deal of mechanical advantage. Turbo engine generally have a much more level torque curve, so after the initial lag they are able to stay in gear for much longer, therefore accelerating quicker.

Man, you know your stuff. But I was referring to na engines and it doesn't really matter because it's like apples to oranges.

 

[Crayola]

Man, you know your stuff. But I was referring to na engines and it doesn't really matter because it's like apples to oranges.

This is true, it cant be comapred. However, say with we had an 2 LS1s, one that produces max torque at 4000 rpm, and one modified so its torque maxes at 2000.
The modified one will fly off the line because its got max torque straigh away, except he'll have to change into 2nd much sooner.Even assuming they were then both then at 3000rpm (the modified one would infact be lower) The mechanical advantage of the 1st gear far exceeds that of 2nd. So even though the stock car hasn't shifted yet he will be accelerating much faster. Soon the modified car will have to shift into 3rd, and the stock car into 2nd; once again the stock car has the advantage. Torque at higher RPM (considering its still decent at lower RPMs) is much better than high torque at low RPM.

Hehe, and I thought Engineering studies and Physics at school wouldn't pay off.

 

[loki993]

youre right in a sense. theorettically. but engines arent normally built that way. at lease for drag racing. theyare for 4 wheelin and tractor pulling and such. the key to a good drag car is to have the flattest torque curve possible. hit peak torque low and keep it as long as possible. the modded car would win in real life because even though its modded for low torque, it probally has a broader curve and holds more torque for a longer peroid. it might drop off at a lower rpm than the other car but by that time the damage is done. its already far ahead in the next gear and pulling again. a v8 is almost always going to have a superior torque curve, meaning flatter, than a smaller enging especially a 4 cylinder. there not made for torque. plus remember torque moves the car, hp makes it fast.

Dude, there are several replacements for displacement. Compression, Boost and RPM. If you can get a 5+L engine to 20K RPM I'll give you 10 dollars.

give about 50 grand to prove it and ill take yourre 10 dollars a v8 can be made to rev to 20k, although very expensive and theres really no point to it, it could be done. i honestly dont see a reason for any car to rev that high. it probally would either ! drive like crap if you put the peaks near that, or 2 you never run it that hight because it dosnt need to go that high.

two more things, boost AND compression dont mix well together for a few reasons

and the last you can boost a v-8 too

 

[Crayola]

give about 50 grand to prove it and ill take yourre 10 dollars a v8 can be made to rev to 20k, although very expensive and theres really no point to it, it could be done. i honestly dont see a reason for any car to rev that high. it probally would either ! drive like crap if you put the peaks near that, or 2 you never run it that hight because it dosnt need to go that high.

two more things, boost AND compression dont mix well together for a few reasons

and the last you can boost a v-8 too

Boost or compression. Also yer, my thing with the 2 cars was theoretical, and yes a broad curve is better, which is why almost all drag cars are supercharged. I was assuming the torque curve was the same, except shifted over 2000 rpm to the left. But yes, you're right.

 

[loki993]

im sure it was but i was letting everyone else know thats may have not realized that.
actually most drag car are supercharged because turbos are outlawed. there are racing series that allow them and they dominate. NMCA, i believe, a few others maybe. even the ones that allow them, the cars get hit with more severe displacement requirements, weight peneltys and such. turbos make great torque.
also turbos actually make the engines quieter and would probally take away some of the mystique and fun factor of going to the drags away.
i love them. id just rather have one a v-8 than a 4 cylinder.

 

[DelaWhereTSi]

im sure it was but i was letting everyone else know thats may have not realized that.
actually most drag car are supercharged because turbos are outlawed. there are racing series that allow them and they dominate. NMCA, i believe, a few others maybe. even the ones that allow them, the cars get hit with more severe displacement requirements, weight peneltys and such. turbos make great torque.
also turbos actually make the engines quieter and would probally take away some of the mystique and fun factor of going to the drags away.
i love them. id just rather have one a v-8 than a 4 cylinder.

You're right about the superchargers, they use them exclusively for the reason of homologation. It's to keep the costs down and everyone on a more level playing field. There could be more effective way to make power for drag cars, considering on a top fuel car, at max RPM it takes over 900 HP just to turn the supercharger belts and pulleys, parastitic loss anyone?
As for the muffler idea, while turbos do act like mufflers the affect is not as huge as you think. The sound would still enough to knock you over. I've run an open downpipe on my car, and it's not that quiet, so I think the "mystique" would still be there.
And here's a fun fact for the import vs. domestic arguement the fastest MPH of the the pro import class (i believe that class) is faster than the best MPH of the NHRA's pro stock class. Those classes are very similar with regards to restictions and development, so the import guys must be doing something right.

 

[Patrik]

I voted ''dont care'' i mean, they dont have any real dragracing cars and its not a real dragstrip, just what PD made it like i think there should be like the Indianapolis drag strip and some real funnycars, top fuels and pro stocks that would be awesom! then they could have at least manual stage in...

 

[Lethalchem]

The original argument was about displacement though, of which I still agree with the original statement. There's nothing you can do to an engine that won't be even better on a larger displacement engine. I don't see any 4sec 300+mph runs being made in 4cyl cars.

 

[Ford GT........]

There is really no way to compare 4cyl to 8cyl because you are doubleing the displacement of the motor and that makes the 8cyl able to make more power more fuel=more power but in real life the 4cyl is lighter and is usually put on lighter cars so it kinda balances it out similar power to weight ratios
and yes turbos are better than superchargers for peak power because they are run off exaust gas and the superchargers run off of the crankshaft no power at the crankshaft lost with the turbos

 

[a_badger]

i think a lot of people are forgeting quite an important factor here, you can get all the power you want out of an engine but gettin it on the road is a different matter.

i'd love to be able to spend the same amount of money as you muscle car boys spend on you cars on modding an audi rs6, see the look on your faces as an estate shopping trolley blitzes it past you . its all about 4*4!!

 

[Scratch]

i did the 400m drag race with my tuned up golf in 11.1secs. I wanna find a car that does it under 10 secs.... maybe the 4,5mil cars?

 

[PaleRider]

i think a lot of people are forgeting quite an important factor here, you can get all the power you want out of an engine but gettin it on the road is a different matter.

i'd love to be able to spend the same amount of money as you muscle car boys spend on you cars on modding an audi rs6, see the look on your faces as an estate shopping trolley blitzes it past you . its all about 4*4!!

- that reminds me of a local 201m(1/8mile) drag-race I saw last summer; a Audi RS6 came second in the smallest class, only beaten by a stock -67 Pontiac GTO.

- so much for hi-tech 4WD, but it was fast the first 100m

 

[Appie]

Just have to say one thing:

"Mercedes CL65 AMG"

bye bye American "Muscle"

I am absolute on your side dev zero american car sucks ass

 

[a_badger]

i did the 400m drag race with my tuned up golf in 11.1secs. I wanna find a car that does it under 10 secs.... maybe the 4,5mil cars?

i tried with the rs6 in the game, my friend was ranting about his zonda that did it in 9.3, so i took a rs6 and after a couple of runs i did a 9.2, modded ofcourse

 

[loki993]

yes awd is great. and a modded rs6 would be sweet. it probally wouldnt that hard to mod. just turn the boost up a bit. they already have over 400hp dont they? too bad the dont make them anymore and they were very expensive when they did. id take an rs6 or s4 any day over a wrx or an evo.

 

[RobcioPL]

It's a great idea. I would love to see a EVO against a GTO. The EVO would go off the line, but the GTO will catch up in the topend.

 

[98cobra]

youre right in a sense. theorettically. but engines arent normally built that way. at lease for drag racing. theyare for 4 wheelin and tractor pulling and such. the key to a good drag car is to have the flattest torque curve possible. hit peak torque low and keep it as long as possible. the modded car would win in real life because even though its modded for low torque, it probally has a broader curve and holds more torque for a longer peroid. it might drop off at a lower rpm than the other car but by that time the damage is done. its already far ahead in the next gear and pulling again. a v8 is almost always going to have a superior torque curve, meaning flatter, than a smaller enging especially a 4 cylinder. there not made for torque. plus remember torque moves the car, hp makes it fast.



give about 50 grand to prove it and ill take yourre 10 dollars a v8 can be made to rev to 20k, although very expensive and theres really no point to it, it could be done. i honestly dont see a reason for any car to rev that high. it probally would either ! drive like crap if you put the peaks near that, or 2 you never run it that hight because it dosnt need to go that high.

two more things, boost AND compression dont mix well together for a few reasons

and the last you can boost a v-8 too

Exactly my point.

 

[98cobra]

I am absolute on your side dev zero american car sucks ass

That's an intelligent statement.

 

[loki993]

I am absolute on your side dev zero american car sucks ass

could you elaborate please. why do american cars suck ass, as you put it??
really id like to know, please tell me.

 

[1Drifter1]

I'm with you, King. There's nothing like the feeling of a Boss 427 or a GTO just spanking a Civic or CRX.

I reckon my Nissan Skyline GTR N1 (R34) would **** on any Boss 427!! It runs 8.606 down 0-400M and it handles well. Japanese rock!!

 

[slowegxxrevolt]

Yeah.........the word "civic" is a waste of time in a racing forum, because it simply doesn't have and never will the true potential to be a drag car. The import racing league can stretch as much out of those lil 4-bangers as they want, just let them know every time you see them that there is.............

NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT.

And remind them with a smoky burnout

Tony
Proud owner of a '73 Charger
Proud son of a man who owns three HEMI cars, and an AAR Cuda

I have had this stupid argument over and over with "muscle car guys". I don't understand why you and many of your fellow muscle car enthusiasts seem to be so closeminded. I respect you and your car if it's fast, at least I respect you if you did the work yourself. And I appreciate the fact that most of the tricks and techniques that we use on our imports were developed by hot rodders and muscle car builders over the last 50 years. Why do you refuse to give any respect in return.

I will admit that most modified muscle cars are faster than most modified Hondas. Did you ever consider that the reason we try to make these front wheel drive 4 cylinders fast is because it is more challenging? And also for the satisfaction of beating the V8s, and it's satisfying because we know they are fast!

Also if you don't think civics have the potential to be a true drag car, here is some info from the front page at www.goldeneaglemfg.com (an import motor shop):

Fastest Import Unibody/Hot Rod Class - Gary Gardella - 8.08@180mph (stock unibody w/rollcage as opposed to the faster tube-framed FWD cars, Gardella's car is a civic hatchback)

Fastest FWD 4 Cylinder All Motor - Skunk2 RSX - 9.85@140mph (I hope you know what all motor means)

Fastest SportFWD - Jason Hunt - 9.53@154mph (street car class, this civic is street legal and street driven!)

And before you come back and so "So what, Mustangs/Camaros/Chevelles/Novas/whatever are still faster", well, of course they are, they're 20 or 30 years ahead of us on the developement curve. I still remember when people said a front wheel drive honda would never run 12s, then it was 11s, then 10s, then 9s, then 8s, then 7s... and then it was all motor cars. They said hondas were only fast because we had nitrous and big turbos, that an all motor civic would never go 12s, then 11s, then 10s, then 9s...

FWIW I own a 94 Civic hatchback with about $12,000 invested and it goes consistent 11.8x@112-115mph all motor w/220hp on a 1.8 liter. It's my only car and I drive it about 500 miles a week commuting to work and my girlfriend's house. Last time I went to Bakersfield I beat a Corvette Z06 and a supercharged Mustang Cobra...

 

[loki993]

i have no problem giving respect where its due. the problem i have is all the guys out there, and they seem to be the majority, at least where i am, that think hod rodding a car consists of huge triple decker wings, body kits, clear taillights, underbody lights and huge tennis ball shooter exhaust and an intake. sometimes they have those "pretty" colored plug wires. then the guys that do have somethings done to their car, did it all with a check book. im not saying that you at all. but there out there and therres a lot of them. them on top of that they race on the street, and go way too fast,ive done it, im no saint, but there a limit and i never cross it, they do, weave in and out of traffic, block all the lanes when their not doing the other two. there dangerous and seem to have no common sense. what in saying is theres a lot of guys that give other guys, the ones who actually care more about going fast that looking good and that know the 100lbs of speakers and playstations and whatever else isnt going to help them go faster. those are they guys that annly me and those are the guys im talking about when i geting arguments like this. their the majority, at least where i am. then there are guys who just use plain false info to justify it, that say their cheaper and get better gas milage. after all that stuff they dont. you shoud know that. and their not cheaper. at best it cost the same, at worst its more, mostly, at least by what ive seen its more. youre a perfece example, 12000 invested and running 11.8. you can do that with a v-8 muscle car for half that, maybe a little more depending on the car, this is not a flame, if you like what youre doing, which you do, keep doing it. but the guys i talked about eariler give guys like you a bad name, you dont seem to be what the import thing is all about, and that sad. if there were more like you it would be alot better, but we see these idiots everyday.

the import thing is more about flash than dash. and i dont see it changing anytime soon.

 

[Schue7683]

I have had this stupid argument over and over with "muscle car guys". I don't understand why you and many of your fellow muscle car enthusiasts seem to be so closeminded. I respect you and your car if it's fast, at least I respect you if you did the work yourself. And I appreciate the fact that most of the tricks and techniques that we use on our imports were developed by hot rodders and muscle car builders over the last 50 years. Why do you refuse to give any respect in return.

I will admit that most modified muscle cars are faster than most modified Hondas. Did you ever consider that the reason we try to make these front wheel drive 4 cylinders fast is because it is more challenging? And also for the satisfaction of beating the V8s, and it's satisfying because we know they are fast!

Also if you don't think civics have the potential to be a true drag car, here is some info from the front page at www.goldeneaglemfg.com (an import motor shop):

Fastest Import Unibody/Hot Rod Class - Gary Gardella - 8.08@180mph (stock unibody w/rollcage as opposed to the faster tube-framed FWD cars, Gardella's car is a civic hatchback)

Fastest FWD 4 Cylinder All Motor - Skunk2 RSX - 9.85@140mph (I hope you know what all motor means)

Fastest SportFWD - Jason Hunt - 9.53@154mph (street car class, this civic is street legal and street driven!)

And before you come back and so "So what, Mustangs/Camaros/Chevelles/Novas/whatever are still faster", well, of course they are, they're 20 or 30 years ahead of us on the developement curve. I still remember when people said a front wheel drive honda would never run 12s, then it was 11s, then 10s, then 9s, then 8s, then 7s... and then it was all motor cars. They said hondas were only fast because we had nitrous and big turbos, that an all motor civic would never go 12s, then 11s, then 10s, then 9s...

FWIW I own a 94 Civic hatchback with about $12,000 invested and it goes consistent 11.8x@112-115mph all motor w/220hp on a 1.8 liter. It's my only car and I drive it about 500 miles a week commuting to work and my girlfriend's house. Last time I went to Bakersfield I beat a Corvette Z06 and a supercharged Mustang Cobra...

Well, you forgot to mention the best example of my point, the super stock cars (Darts, Dusters) that have the race hemis, and STILL win the same event they were bred to win 40 years ago. The technology hasn't changed that much, so I don't really know what you're talking about when you say "development" curve. It's funny to hear someone who uses the latest and greatest tech talk about the "development curve", haha. Anyway, the point is, when import funny cars with 4 bangers start producing 6,600+ horsepower and do the quarter in 4.50's without a major technological breakthrough, come talk to me about fast. Otherwise, enjoy your expensive hobby and you go think that V-8's are the devil

And yes.........I do my own work. I was raised by a father who knows the value of good ole' fashioned wrenchin', and ain't afraid to take forever to make something last forever. You seem like a respectable guy, I feel the same way as loki and I say that the import mantra is tainted but you are a rare shining point it. They need more like you to get some respect, which ain't coming from people other than in the import nation itself these days......


Tony

 

[DelaWhereTSi]

The original argument was about displacement though, of which I still agree with the original statement. There's nothing you can do to an engine that won't be even better on a larger displacement engine. I don't see any 4sec 300+mph runs being made in 4cyl cars.

Maybe you should try looking a little harder.

4,000 HP Integra