Driving Aids whats the point?

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ferrari_chris
I've only found two cars where I've needed the traction control, and both were in GT3 - the DTM Mercedes, and the Pagani Zonda Race Car. I'm yet to find a car in GT4 that I can't tame with an accurate and precise thumb.

Here's something to think about though - In the interests of pure realism, why don't they set the traction control, and stability control for cars that have it in real life. This would mean that only cars in the last 5 - 7 years would have it, and if it can't be turned off in the real car, then it can't be turned off in the game. If it can be adjusted in RL, then it can be adjusted in the game etc.
Also ABS is something that could be looked at... :)
Did you not read this?
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1703758&postcount=22

EVERY car in GT is going to have it. They don't care if the real thing doesn't have it or not.
They put it for every car. READ the BIG BOLDED print.

ZAGGIN
driving aids are for old ladies and casual gamers!

imo think that they should be purchased like any other part, and not given as standard with every car. if my memory serves me correct, you had to purchase them on GT2, why is it any different with GT4? anyway in RL, not every car has driving aids fitted as standard.

Please read what Zero linked.

"Kazunori has to satisfy experience GT players, while still accommodating both the novice and casual gamer."


This is why every car in the game has aids, no matter if the real one has it or not.
 
McLaren F1GTR
... They don't care if the real thing doesn't have it or not.
They put it for every car. READ the BIG BOLDED print. ...

The REAL Driving Simultor? They're making the cars different to how they are in real life, just like NFSU2. :nervous:

Emohawk
I think there should be a global driving aid on/off switch in the options

I second this. If not, then default to OFF, rather than ON. The people who want them can turn them on, rather than those of us who don't want them having to turn them off. :)
 
Bah... I like how it is right now... Most people don't know that there are aids in this game until the gain some knowledge about it... These are casual gamers that don't even play much of the game... (ASM probably saves their asses while they spin the tires less because TCS is on)... I had my friend play with all of my settings ... (Simple interface... No TCS no ASM...)... Well it was not pretty, I had to turn em all on... (He has GT3 but he barely played it and acts like he knows all about it... Well dumping HP and suspension... race tranny... but no tuning isn't gonna help a car at all... )

Its fine the way it is.. veterans already know what to do with the game in many ways... They will turn the aids off... If it was the other way around it would be harder to gain more players... (I admit I started with all of em on on GT3... Now they are all off)
 
When i use ASM i cannont for the life of me drive the car fast. You cannot use the weight shifting techniques and you cant have a little slid to help turn. Nothing you does helps the car. If the car undesteers you cannot do anything to stop it as the ASM just stops everything.

ASM helps you get round the track with no crashing, but there is no way you can put in decent lap times with ASM, the car feels and responsed soo much different.
 
I tend not to use asm as it dmpens the control, but I use tcs on pwerful cars. it helps heaps.

theres a reason for everything in this world, sometimes the reason is not a good one tho...
 
mclaren_f1gtr
Please read what Zero linked.

"Kazunori has to satisfy experience GT players, while still accommodating both the novice and casual gamer."

i read what KY had to say on the subject, and i agree with him to a point, but if GT is going to live up to its monicker of "the real driving simulator", then it has to stop pandering to those novice and casual gamers. (his argument could easily apply to the 'poor' AI too).

when the first GT was released, its realism (compared to say ridge racer) was a big surprise for me as it was no doubt for many others who had previously been used to arcade stlye racers. did it stop me wanting to play the game because i kept spinning off every five minutes? NO! i learned because i had to - there were no driving aids in gt1.

the same cant be said for gt4. nowadays, its all drip fed to you, theres little insentive for novice or casual gamers to progress their skills, because they know that the game can be cracked thanks to the many driving aids that have been built into the series since gt2. gran turismo 4 with automatic gears and driving aids is nothing more than an interactive replay. wheres the fun in that?

im no GT expert either. i struggle with many of the races in GT4, but i NEVER rely on driving aids. if i win,at least i know that i won the race on my own merits and skills. the same goes for if i lose, there is no one to blame but myself.
if i cant handle the car, its my problem, not the games. thats something novice and casual gamers never seem to grasp. if they cant drive cars or win races, then the game is at fault, not their poor driving skills.

aunt rose
Well, okay, but I sure would like to see a video of you taking a Stage 4-powered GT-One around Hong Kong or Cote d'Azure with the TCS at zero.

Yours Truly -

Aunt Rose

im in the process of making one for you, but why would you want to take such a high powered car on slow technical tracks like hong kong or monaco? kinda like trying to crack a walnut with a sledgehammer dont you think?
the real challenge there would be taking an severely under powered car and trying to beat the lap record.
 
ZAGGIN
...if GT is going to live up to its monicker of "the real driving simulator", then it has to stop pandering to those novice and casual gamers...


Sony, PD, and Kaz himself couldn't care less about living up to a slogan. What they care about, and what they HAVE to care about, is unit sales.

What have they sold so far, seven million copies of GT4 and 33 million total of Gran Turismo? They do it by "pandering" to novice and casual gamers, not us. My squawk is that with just a couple of more features (difficulty level slider and ability to choose our AI competition in GT mode) the game could be great for everybody.

And by the way, the way driving aids is implemented is just fine. Don't like 'em? Turn 'em off manually.

- Rose
 
Zardoz
Sony, PD, and Kaz himself couldn't care less about living up to a slogan. What they care about, and what they HAVE to care about, is unit sales.

What have they sold so far, seven million copies of GT4 and 33 million total of Gran Turismo? They do it by "pandering" to novice and casual gamers, not us. My squawk is that with just a couple of more features (difficulty level slider and ability to choose our AI competition in GT mode) the game could be great for everybody.

And by the way, the way driving aids is implemented is just fine. Don't like 'em? Turn 'em off manually.

- Rose

well said. Dont like those driving aids, turn them off.
 
Zardoz
Sony, PD, and Kaz himself couldn't care less about living up to a slogan. What they care about, and what they HAVE to care about, is unit sales.

What have they sold so far, seven million copies of GT4 and 33 million total of Gran Turismo? They do it by "pandering" to novice and casual gamers, not us. My squawk is that with just a couple of more features (difficulty level slider and ability to choose our AI competition in GT mode) the game could be great for everybody.

And by the way, the way driving aids is implemented is just fine. Don't like 'em? Turn 'em off manually.

- Rose

👎

I don't agree with this. I don't claim to be an expert on their philosophies, but if you've watched the DVD that came with Prologue, it has interviews with KY and he says that it's all about creating a driving simulator more than a racing game.
When he started he set out to create a driving simulator over a racing game, and I believe that's what he'll stick to.

To imply that he or PD would 'sell out' to get unit sales, I think is wrong.
 
I do find it quite annoying when I take a car out for a drive for the first time and accidently start driving and think "why is my car braking on its own?". Then I realize I forgot to turn the driving aids off, and I have to quit, go to the settings, turn them off, go back, and start over again. Quite frustrating. I have no problem with them being there, I just hate having to turn them off on hundreds of cars individually :ouch: Anyway, as for what I use, I can't stand ASM as I prefer to do my own driving, thank you very much, and I never turn TCS above 1, just to keep the tires from burning off on high-powered cars since I don't have fancy foot pedals to use :D
 
If you really want a realistic driving simulation, take 'em off. It gives you a choice if you want aids or not. I don't think the choice of having driving aids on or off prohibit you from having a driving simulator. The game can become a driving simulator if you want it to.
 
Bones Brigade
most cars have traction control inreal life.
Most new high powered cars perhaps?

Do any race cars use TCS? My guess would be that very few do - one thing that drivers have to practice at lot is getting good starts. The problem I find, particularly with LMPs and GpCs is that even using pedals whellspin from a standing start is almost impossible to control. More than 1-2mm of pedal travel will induce wheelspin which I find is just a pain in the ar$e and detracts from the enjoyability of the game.

I would love to see an enhancement of the driving aids in the netx GT interation. We currently have A/B/C setups - perhaps this could be expanded to have a button for actual setup, ie click here and get the car as it would be from the showroom floor. Cars such a EvoVIIIs come equiped with ASM and TCS - I would like to know which cars should and shouldn't have it (and ABS and TCS and power steering for that matter).

Tunable radio, airconditioning and drink holders would also be nice.
 
I agree some cars comiing stock with abs or not, or with tcs/ayc vcd or not would be a good idea in GT5.

I wonder if PD will be smart enough to include it.
 
With the high end LMP cars, I wouldn't put a crash dummy in one of those things, with slow FF cars it couldn't be better.
 
kyle, with a stock r34 and n class tires, are your times actually slower with assists off?
 
ferrari_chris
👎

I don't agree with this. I don't claim to be an expert on their philosophies, but if you've watched the DVD that came with Prologue, it has interviews with KY and he says that it's all about creating a driving simulator more than a racing game.
When he started he set out to create a driving simulator over a racing game, and I believe that's what he'll stick to.

To imply that he or PD would 'sell out' to get unit sales, I think is wrong.

Its got nothing to do with 'selling out', but a fact of commercial reality, the only games that PD make are the Gran Turismo series, with some fairly huge time periods between releases.

PD have to get the unit sales required to fund the design, development and production of the series, as well as making a profit to ensure that the shareholders are happy.

The GT series may have recorded some record sales figures for units shifted; but unless that continues with current and future releases then the money simply will not be present to continue.

Its a comercial fact that PD has to produce a product that appeals to as wide an audience as possiable; the driving aids assist in this by allowing the hardcore to remove the levels of assistance, while retaining a level of 'pick up and play' for newcomers to the series (who are the last people on earth we want to put off buying the games).

The driving aids are not meant to be exact replicas of the real world systems, but a 'simulated version' of them that can be used, as the name implies, as driving aids. I agree that a universal toggle to set default levels would be useful, as its a pain to set them for each car if you want all zeros.

As for the arguement that only cars that have the features in real life should have them, and if you can't turn them off in real life then you should not be able to in the game. First remember that they are principally driving aids, to assist anyone who feels that they need it; secondly just because a car has a feature in real life does not mean you would retain it on the track. For example, on most Daimlier Chrysler models you can not turn Traction or Stability control completely off; yet most of us would want a little more control over this.

A number of people are talking like the GT series is the holy grail of driving simulation, and while its damn good (good enough for me to use for automotive training), its not the last word in accuracy. Again these commercial needs creap in again.

Take a look at any of the truely hard core driving or racing sims and the sales volumes they managed, almost all are produced by studios who have other products to help fund these sims, and most record very small sales volumes.

Richard Burns Rally is a classic example of this, arguably the finest rally sim ever produced, winner of four awards from Blackhole Motorsport (the racing sim website), including best physics engine. It also scored some good reviews in the mainstream gaming press. However, as far as sales went, its not even in the same division as the Colin McRae or WRC series, despite hammering them both for realism.

The single biggest problem with sims and realism in driving games is that historically it has not sold as well as arcade racing games (RBR and Gran Prix Legends being good examples). Most gamers want to win without putting in the effort of endless testing and tuning of the cars and honing of driving skills; what we find great fun and very satisfying does not sell games.

The Gran Turismo series broke the mold, it was one of the first 'sim' style driving/racing games to shift huge volumes, and part of this was (and still is) down to its ability to appeal to both mainstream gamers and the die-hard racing/driving fan.

Just my little rant; but it is easy for any of us to say that what we want should be in the game and that anyone who finds this makes it too difficult should go and buy something else. Well that kind of strategy would only result in the end of the GT series.

A good analogy is a comment that crops up every now and again on the Auto news threads, people who say if they ran volume car company 'x' they would only make rear wheel drive cars, because thats what all cars should be. The level of commercial naivety in this kind of statement is insane; the vast majority of car buyers do not care at all what layout the car is, they want space, safety and economy. If say Honda or Toyota started to only make RWD models they would lose market share overnight. Same with GT, if the only option on the game was pure hardcore sim, they would lose buyers in the same way.
 
Moloch_horridus
Do any race cars use TCS? My guess would be that very few do - one thing that drivers have to practice at lot is getting good starts.

There is one class that uses TCS, you may have heard of it - Formula 1. Up until recently they didn't have to worry about starting the race either, what with their launch control and everything... :crazy:

*Scaff* - Some good points and I think you're right on most counts. A hard-core sim wouldn't turn me away, I buy the first out of curiosity, but I agree it would turn some away and hurt sales. It may be interesting to see the reaction to a hardcore sim though. While it seems that it's what a lot of people want, people may find that it was a lot better before. :)
 
ferrari_chris
There is one class that uses TCS, you may have heard of it - Formula 1. Up until recently they didn't have to worry about starting the race either, what with their launch control and everything... :crazy:

*Scaff* - Some good points and I think you're right on most counts. A hard-core sim wouldn't turn me away, but I agree it would hurt sales. It may also be interesting to see a hardcore sim though. While it seems that it's what a lot of people want, people may find that it was a lot better before. :)

Quite agree, a hard-core sim would appeal to almost every member of GT Planet, myself included (sold all my Colin McRae and WRC games once I got a copy of Richard Burns Rally); but I think it would be daft of us to claim that we make up the majority of GT buyers.

No, the majority of buyers are either casual gamers, who simply want what is rated as the best PS2 driving game for their game collection; or mild car enthusiasts who want a driving game (and for many this will be the first consule and game they have ever bought) to entertain and have fun with. Neither of these two groups are after a hard-core sim, nor would they be likely to buy GT games if they had that reputation.

The GT series is subtle in that way, the initial settings and scope of the game allow a casual or in-experienced player to progress quite far and get hooked in the process. However to truly get competative they will have to get better, and most will start to explore sites such as this and start looking at lowering the level of assistance.

The worst thing any of us can do is act like rabid fan-boy sim loonies (not implying you are) when it comes to the driving aids. Remember, if these people don't buy the next GT, then the chances of the series running into problems increases.
 
Scaff
Remember, if these people don't buy the next GT, then the chances of the series running into problems increases.

I think we agree then - There are things PD and KY can do to make it much more of a 'simulator', but they need to leave GT accessible to the masses for future success. Obviously it's very good the way it is, so they should probably just continue doing what they're doing.

One easy and beneficial change though - the global option for driving aids on or off. I think that would make a lot of people happy. :)
 
ZAGGIN
i read what KY had to say on the subject, and i agree with him to a point, but if GT is going to live up to its monicker of "the real driving simulator", then it has to stop pandering to those novice and casual gamers.
And why would they do that?
They won't.

A lot of their GT games are bought by casual gamers.

They stop pandering to the novice and casual gamers, sells are to go....PLOP!
Fall, and hurt sells.
 
I agree, stuff the ASM and oversteer/understeer settings ... one only need TCS of 1-3 for some of the high powered cars ... that's it ! Those other stuff only make you so much slower ... but I guess a good thing for total beginners, who have not driven a car in any GT ...
 
I would love a hardcore sim, but I'm sure I'm the minority. The casual GTers I talk to just want a fast car that beats everything else. PD got it right that it caters to both groups.

Sure, I find the crowd that just wants fast cars a little annoying (especially if you play against them -- they love to hit you in the most unprofessional ways), but that's the majority of the game consumers out there.

And the last thing we should want to do is sound elitist. We want to embrace casual gamers (something this forum does well), maybe educate them a bit, and then they'll hopefully want to explore the game's nuances.

Drive with the aides on or off. However you like to do it. I use them on on some cars and not on others. Depends on the car. Use manual or automatic transmission. It's your game; use it as you see fit.

And for anyone who cares, my new column on Filmthreat.com should be up tomorrow like clockwork. It's not GT related, but if you like hearing an opinionated madman rant about movies, you may just enjoy it.
 
Bauknin
I would love a hardcore sim, but I'm sure I'm the minority. The casual GTers I talk to just want a fast car that beats everything else. PD got it right that it caters to both groups.


And the last thing we should want to do is sound elitist. We want to embrace casual gamers (something this forum does well), maybe educate them a bit, and then they'll hopefully want to explore the game's nuances.
.


You could almost say I'm one of those people. I came from old arcadey racing games and moved into the GT series immediately enjoying the realism it gave yet still holding on to some of the classic arcade expectations. Even in GT4 I've mostly used the aids... not because I *need* them but mostly because I'm too lazy. :guilty:

That being said, I've found myself specifically turning off aids more often. Maybe I'll redo the entire game with aids off? I definitely agree that the cars "feel" better without the aids on and I don't mind the occasional fishtail. No different than learning to drive on snow growing up in the Midwest US.

But I'm still psuedo-casual because I don't like to endlessly tinkering with the cars settings. So you could say I've learned to appreciate a couple nuances. :sly:

It's a wonderful thing to provide for those who care, but a good default setting is necessary for the majority of gamers.


Bauknin
Sure, I find the crowd that just wants fast cars a little annoying (especially if you play against them -- they love to hit you in the most unprofessional ways), but that's the majority of the game consumers out there.


I agree, gamers should be allowed to play the game as they wish.
When you want compare/contrast/compete with other gamers, then you need groundrules.

One thing that really annoys me, is when they endlessly complain about things that they have complete control of in the game. My favorite is people who ask for the best car for race X, slap on all the HP upgrades, race and then come back later to say that the game was too easy. That it's PDs fault for allowing them to take overpowered cars in to races!

It's a fundamental irony: the wider the audience you try to capture, the more people you have to find something to complain about. Oh well... :lol:
 
jdw
You could almost say I'm one of those people. I came from old arcadey racing games and moved into the GT series immediately enjoying the realism it gave yet still holding on to some of the classic arcade expectations. Even in GT4 I've mostly used the aids... not because I *need* them but mostly because I'm too lazy. :guilty:

That being said, I've found myself specifically turning off aids more often. Maybe I'll redo the entire game with aids off? I definitely agree that the cars "feel" better without the aids on and I don't mind the occasional fishtail. No different than learning to drive on snow growing up in the Midwest US.

But I'm still psuedo-casual because I don't like to endlessly tinkering with the cars settings. So you could say I've learned to appreciate a couple nuances. :sly:

It's a wonderful thing to provide for those who care, but a good default setting is necessary for the majority of gamers.





I agree, gamers should be allowed to play the game as they wish.
When you want compare/contrast/compete with other gamers, then you need groundrules.

One thing that really annoys me, is when they endlessly complain about things that they have complete control of in the game. My favorite is people who ask for the best car for race X, slap on all the HP upgrades, race and then come back later to say that the game was too easy. That it's PDs fault for allowing them to take overpowered cars in to races!

It's a fundamental irony: the wider the audience you try to capture, the more people you have to find something to complain about. Oh well... :lol:

In that case, I think PD should creates more difficulty levels like other Japanese games where you have easy, normal, hard and extreme hard :sly:
 
Sti04
In that case, I think PD should creates more difficulty levels like other Japanese games where you have easy, normal, hard and extreme hard :sly:

If you want hard and extreme hard, drive the driving missions all day long. See if you can pass Mission 34 five times in row. Would that be extreme hard? :)
 
ferrari_chris
If you want hard and extreme hard, drive the driving missions all day long. See if you can pass Mission 34 five times in row. Would that be extreme hard? :)

I would love to try that if they take 123 second of waiting off. :yuck:
 
If its a car i'm only going to use for one or two races, I might leave ASM on, but on the cars that i use frequently I take it off. TCS I leave on as little as possible becasue I haev a DS2 and not the best throttle control.

Its there for those who need it and not everyone can drive a car without driving aids, so it allows for more people to enjoy the game whilst not taking away from it (you're not forced to use it).
 
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