DTM Round 2

  • Thread starter Thread starter Appie
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sjaak68
SkylineGoes,
Whining?,who's whining?
no hard feelings and still being polite but you missed this post I guess.
I had no problems with the weight penalty's.
Like I said only an explanation would be cool but that is sorted out already.
And if you're as fast as you claim ,I see you soon on the podium where you get my sincere congrats.:cheers:
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Oooh... sorry. I totally had missed that post :ouch: But from the one post I got the image you had a problem with your weight increse :dopey: Sorry once more :cheers:
 
Sphinx
BMW = 2% Added Weight
A4 = 1% Added Weight

I'll run the A4 tonight and compare it to the BMW time from race #1
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that would be good. I havent run the BMW yet on either track, so Im just going by what I have seen.

Honestly though, I dont think its fair to handicap everyone who drives a certain car just because there are one or two exceptional drivers in that car, in that way you would be handicapping the slower drivers because there are faster drivers than them.
The point of it is to equalize the field. Handicapping the cars would make the slow drivers even slower. Personally I wouldnt want to see all the audi drivers handicapped because I had an exceptional race in the last event, especially since, as a one driver team i cant even compete for the team championship. If that were the case, to help the other audi drivers, I would be better off not to compete at all.
 
Sphinx
The problem is that the driver is being handicapped instead of the car. It would be far better to handicap the cars from race #1 than the two fastest drivers.

For example, I had a 3% increase in the BMW and yet others driving the same car only had 1%

This is how I would've done it from race #1

BMW = 2% Added Weight
A4 = 1% Added Weight

I'll run the A4 tonight and compare it to the BMW time from race #1
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You took the words out of my mouth:lol:

If you guys think that the BMW is so much better,why not punish all the BMW drivers.
Like it is now "Quote Sphinx :the driver is being handicapped instead of the car. "

If we can make it out together about the penalty system I'm sure the series will be a succes.👍
 
sukerkin
Now I didn't have any part in how the handicaps were worked out or how the races were organised (and I haven't driven any of the cars since) but I feel that you're concerning yourself too much about the BMW.
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Perhaps I am mate, and I hope I'm not coming across too badly ;)

In short my main concern is about handicapping the driver instead of the car, that's all, no more, no less. As I've already said, I have no problem with a handicap system that's designed to level the performance of the cars. It's fun, it's a challenge and I know I'll enjoy it more that way anyway. :)
 
I totally agree with sphinx and sjaak. If we were able to match the performances of the cars it would be a lot more fun. I really would like to see at least one point in my stats at the end of the season and if we go on with these settings I don't think I'll get that.
 
Sphinx
The problem is that the driver is being handicapped instead of the car. It would be far better to handicap the cars from race #1 than the two fastest drivers.
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I think that perhaps you aren't quite seeing the point of handicapping the drivers. The reasoning behind it is to do exactly what has aroused protest i.e. slow the fast guys down and give the slower chaps a chance to catch up :).

I'm sure that you've heard of 'success ballast' (as used in say the BTCC) and know the underpinning logic of it. It's the same idea here (or so I would guess (can't say for sure as I had no input into the series architecture)).

If it's your first encounter with the proceedure then I'm not surprised that you're thinking "That's not fair, it's making it much harder for me to do well!". It takes a bit of a mindset adjustment to adapt to the concept that it's not about winning every race or setting the fastest lap each time (tho' it's great to try ... much kudos accrues :)) but more about the long haul of winning the series.

For myself, it's a bit moot because I don't have to time to put in to make an impression (assuming I was good enough) but the handicaping'll mean that I won't always languish in the rear orders :huzzar:.

EDIT: rogue carriage returns for some reason (can't be drunk as I'm still at work :(). Plus, reworded a bit as a phrase could've been misconstrued.

Second EDIT: 👍 to some 'position' clarifying posts made whilst I was typing the above.
 
Man all these posts in such a short period of time have confused me :dunce:
I don't really know which would be better, to punish all the drivers with fast cars or just the fastest drivers. That's a question we should find a clear answer for.
 
bbq0801
that would be good. I havent run the BMW yet on either track, so Im just going by what I have seen.

Honestly though, I dont think its fair to handicap everyone who drives a certain car just because there are one or two exceptional drivers in that car, in that way you would be handicapping the slower drivers because there are faster drivers than them.
The point of it is to equalize the field. Handicapping the cars would make the slow drivers even slower. Personally I wouldnt want to see all the audi drivers handicapped because I had an exceptional race in the last event, especially since, as a one driver team i cant even compete for the team championship. If that were the case, to help the other audi drivers, I would be better off not to compete at all.
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i think bbq8010 has a little point in there because that wouldn be really fair i think

and i think the audi's are fast but not everybody can take everything out
of the car and let just say we add another weight penalty.
Then i think they always be in the back and don't get much points.

just my 2 cents:tup:
 
sukerkin
I think that perhaps you aren't quite seeing the point of handicapping the drivers. The reasoning behind it is to do exactly what has aroused protest i.e. slow the fast guys down and give the slower chaps a chance to catch up :).

I'm sure that you've heard of 'success ballast' (as used in say the BTCC) and know the underpinning logic of it. It's the same idea here (or so I would guess (can't say for sure as I had no input into the series architecture)).

If it's your first encounter with the proceedure then I'm not surprised that you're thinking "That's not fair, it's making it much harder for me to do well!". It takes a bit of a mindset adjustment to adapt to the concept that it's not about winning every race or setting the fastest lap each time (tho' it's great to try ... much kudos accrues :)) but more about the long haul of winning the series.

For myself, it's a bit moot because I don't have to time to put in to make an impression (assuming I was good enough) but the handicaping'll mean that I won't always languish in the rear orders :huzzar:.

EDIT: rogue carriage returns for some reason (can't be drunk as I'm still at work :(). Plus, reworded a bit as a phrase could've been misconstrued.

Second EDIT: 👍 to some 'position' clarifying posts made whilst I was typing the above.
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Well, if that's the case then it would've been advicable to have emphasised the handicap system beforehand. I don't think this disucussion would've taken place if it had.

If that's how you guys want to run this then I'll go with it 👍 :scared: :scared:
 
i hope everybody is happy now with the rules

or else i will shoot myself:dopey:
 
appie17
i hope everybody is happy now with the rules

or else i will shoot myself:dopey:
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Happy with what rules appie? I 've read all the posts and I don't seem to understand the "rules", what has changed?
All I know , along with my teammate Skyline , that the Alfa is not going to be competitive again this week with a measly 1% weight reduction. I'm not the fastest guy here but I'm alot faster then my time last week suggest. The playing field was not even to start with, I don't care what was tested. If I can get in 2 different cars and see a 2 second a lap difference, something is wrong.
I doubt I'll even race this week,cause there is no way to even come close to the top, what incentive do I have to compete, to look like the poorest driver here? I'm not looking to podium, but I sure shouldn't be coming in last. I drive in the JGTS series that "eats vipers for lunch" is putting on, it is also a handicapped event. This week I took the pole position in the qualifier, that's incentive. Unless some more testing is done and power and weights adjusted, I'll just sit out...nothing personal against anyone, I just can't see investing time in a futile exercize.
 
Drew22,have you already tried this race.
I have some splits you can compare.

42.7
34.1
34.1
34.1
34.2
34.1

I like this race.
The AI is easy to pass.:)
 
sjaak68
Drew22,have you already tried this race.
I have some splits you can compare.

42.7
34.1
34.1
34.1
34.2
34.1

I like this race.
The AI is easy to pass.:)
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Thanks much man, I'll go test it now.

EDIT: Just ran several laps
42.7
34.9
34.8
34.8
34.9
34.7
Gonna try with someone else's car and settings.

EDIT2: Just ran the CLK, and even with my big 10KG weight lose in the Alfa the CLK is 1.2 -1.5 seconds a lap faster. So a driver with the exact skills as me,driving the CLK will beat me by over 20 seconds in a 15 lap race.... level playing field? Although, I must admit that the S/F straight speed was the same in both cars. Again I say, it's my fault for picking the Alfa, but I did so thinking the handicapping would be equal...
 
I must admit I have done a OLR two weeks ago on the HSR so the track is burned in my mind.
Tomorrow I do some test with the alfa and see what the difference is with my beautifully BMW with the new weights.
 
The girder they attached to give my car added weight looks really cool as a spoiler ;)
 
Give the Alfa's more performance. Sounds like they need it tbh.
 
Thanks Sphinx, I didn't think anyone has been listening to my partner and me.
 
Sphinx
Give the Alfa's more performance. Sounds like they need it tbh.
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truetrue. maybe a few of us can run the alfa in conjunction with our own cars and submit our sugesstions to ensure comparible performance.
 
bbq0801
truetrue. maybe a few of us can run the alfa in conjunction with our own cars and submit our sugesstions to ensure comparible performance.
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That sounds very fair and generous...Thanks man!
 
bbq0801
yes, the alfas need help.

but with the bmws all in the top 5, mercedes far down the pack, audis and opels are outclassed as well, the only reason i was up there with the bmws in the first race was because i set a target of running 6 laps in 5'00 min. when i got there, i quit. There was absolutely no way the audi was going faster than that, I ran 6 entire laps in WRS hotlap mode.

things do need to be set right, but it should have been done when people realized how outclassed the alfas were at the beginning add power, remove weight until the alfas can run with the rest. As far as the rest go, I say Sphinx, sjaak and the other bmw drivers are simply in the best car, just like a real race series, personally I dont mind. I think the rest of us will have to raise our game to keep up!
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My fastest lap in the BMW in time trial was 48.1's for race #1

I just completed 10 laps using the A4 and got 48'3's

I'm sure I can get that down to 48'1's, so your thinking that the BMW out-classes the A4 is incorrect.

EDIT: Let's try the Alfa now. lol

brb
 
Much gratitude for the A4 testing. I guess I was wrong, the track simply suited the M3 better, I guess ill end up with a weight penalty here pretty soon as well.

indeed, Alfa testing shall be tomorrow. Philosophy essay is calling.
 
A solid 50.9 in race #1 for the Alfa lol

IMO, Not a very nice car to drive when comparing it to the others. it simply doesn't handle as well.

I could get it lower than that, but I gave up because it wasn't even getting close.
 
CLK after 10 laps for race #1 48'2's and more to come off.

I think we picked the wrong cars. lol

Anyway, the conclusion.

Out of the ones tested.

the A4 has the best handling (sweet to drive)
the CLK is the fastest and handles well
the Alfa is the worst handling and slowest
the BMW, well, as I've already said, it not the best car out of the bunch. :) but it's somwhere in between the CLK and the A4

the CLK, BMW & A4 were well matched on the first race.
 
Thanks for your confirmation Sphinx....can we change out cars??? Guess not.
 
Well we have 2 options; allow you to change your car and rule out the Alfa, or give it more power to match the other cars. However, the Alfa doesn't handle as well, and to be honest, more power won't give you what want to compete.

I say, learn by our mistakes and rule the Alfa out?

Edited: Can't write proper ;)
 
it may be possible to make the alfa competitive with just power, it will, however need to be tested vs the others at various tracks.

I would propose giving the alfa what it needs in power, test at both types of tracks, to ensure it wont just blow everything away at the wider open tracks, but remains fairly competitive through the slower ones. Though that wont be easy.. it would be cool to see the diversity of having the Alfas compete.

This all being up to appie in the end... were just blowing steam at the moment.. until he decides what to do.
 
@Drew22

if you want more power, maybe i can bend the rules some for some power.
It only depends how much you need
right now im at school and can't test the cars out:ouch:
 
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