DTM Round 2

[Pink_the_Floyd]

@Drew22

if you want more power, maybe i can bend the rules some for some power.
It only depends how much you need
right now im at school and can't test the cars out

Hey appie, great race man, say, pay the toyota forums a visit again or read the newest post on team toyota here on GTP. Normally, the board works fine.

 

[ls2_297]

seriously a lot of controvercy here... obviously the Alfa's are lacking the speed to keep up with the rest... so give them more power, and more to the point, who cares how the other cars compare to eachother, the last race turned out pretty close, its more how the driver drives the car....oh and one more thing....... seriously does 1 or 2% weight gain really make THAT much of a difference?? think about it!!

 

[fasj6418]

seriously a lot of controvercy here... obviously the Alfa's are lacking the speed to keep up with the rest... so give them more power, and more to the point, who cares how the other cars compare to eachother, the last race turned out pretty close, its more how the driver drives the car....oh and one more thing....... seriously does 1 or 2% weight gain really make THAT much of a difference?? think about it!!

too much weight can kill a car... don´t know what can be done, but a car with +5 or more has no chance of winning, at least that´s what do we have in the JGTC series.

also, the cars are not set all even, its painful, i know... it will take us to season 3 to get them all even... alongside with the power, you also have to count the tire wear thing... those cars with uneven tire wear, you have to give them more power, because the driver needs to use a harder compound in the front... (not the case for sprint races i think).

but the alfa really needs some tweaking:tup:

 

[Appie]

if no one is against it i will add some power to the Alfa

 

[My_Sterious]

As you know, I say yes

 

[MagpieRacer]

if no one is against it i will add some power to the Alfa

How about throwing some toward the Audis..

 

[Appie]

When i get home

i ahve to sort osme things out then let us see if everyone is happy:tup:

 

[The Internet]

too much weight can kill a car... don´t know what can be done, but a car with +5 or more has no chance of winning, at least that´s what do we have in the JGTC series.

also, the cars are not set all even, its painful, i know... it will take us to season 3 to get them all even... alongside with the power, you also have to count the tire wear thing... those cars with uneven tire wear, you have to give them more power, because the driver needs to use a harder compound in the front... (not the case for sprint races i think).

but the alfa really needs some tweaking:tup:

Are we supposed to use tyre wear? I didn't see it in the rules.

Actually, the first post says no tyre wear. I'm not quite sure where your opinion's coming from, then.

 

[Drew22]

I believe he's referring to the JGTC, we use strong tire wear in those races. No tire wear here...as far as I know

 

[bbq0801]

if no one is against it i will add some power to the Alfa

Do it, they need it!

Ran a 51.006 fastest lap in the alfa for tsukuba tonight, I agree with Sphinx and the Alfa drivers, it needs something.

 

[The Internet]

dudes:
have some splits.

1: 0'41.561
2: 0'33.944
3: 0'34.269
4: 0'34.281
5: 0'34.007
6: 0'34.380

 

[fasj6418]

I believe he's referring to the JGTC, we use strong tire wear in those races. No tire wear here...as far as I know

oh yes, my bad, i forgot

but a massive weight penalty will always kill a car, we will see that in the following rounds... if the same drivers keep winning...

 

[EFJ]

Yo ! wait a second!!!!

No tyre wear ?

 

[The Internet]

The first post in this topic says as much

 

[EFJ]

Yo damm!

haha

thanks

now i will be fast !

 

[My_Sterious]

Yo damm!

haha

thanks

now i will be fast !

You ran with tyre wear? No wonder why you were the same class with me and Drew, or should I say, the Alfas.

 

[EFJ]

You ran with tyre wear? No wonder why you were the same class with me and Drew, or should I say, the Alfas.

Ye mate , i run with tyre wear in first round
i saw i big difference in my time with your dtm drivers

i m racing in round 2 with tyre wear but other type tyres to end the races

now i know , NO TYRE WEAR !

hhaha

Holla !

 

[Sjaak]

I did test some cars today to see what we can do with the Alfa.

But first things first.
The question from Ashley for more power for the A4.

Before this series Niels,Sphinx and I did some test with the CLK,BMW,Astra and the A4.
For Sphinx the A4 was the best and for me and Niels the BMW.
Although times are close between all 4 cars.
Conclusion:No more power.

Now the Alfa.
On HSR I upgraded the car to +13 power and -10 weight.
I ran it along the Astra and the TT and all three got near each other times.
Even to my BMW time
But when I took these three cars to Midfield The Alfa was still losing a lot of time on the Astra and the TT.
More HP for the Alfa is no solution because they will outrun the others easily on Fuji,HSR and other fast tracks.

The handling of the Alfa is so much worse compared to the other cars that my solution would be,ditch the Alfa and choose another car.

appie,these are my recommendations and I'm sure they will be supported by many racers.(I hope)

Sjaak.

 

[Appie]

if Drew22 and SkylineGoes wants another car

than we will ditch the Alfa:tup:

 

[EFJ]

I did test some cars today to see what we can do with the Alfa.

But first things first.
The question from Ashley for more power for the A4.

Before this series Niels,Sphinx and I did some test with the CLK,BMW,Astra and the A4.
For Sphinx the A4 was the best and for me and Niels the BMW.
Although times are close between all 4 cars.
Conclusion:No more power.

Now the Alfa.
On HSR I upgraded the car to +13 power and -10 weight.
I ran it along the Astra and the TT and all three got near each other times.
Even to my BMW time
But when I took these three cars to Midfield The Alfa was still losing a lot of time on the Astra and the TT.
More HP for the Alfa is no solution because they will outrun the others easily on Fuji,HSR and other fast tracks.

The handling of the Alfa is so much worse compared to the other cars that my solution would be,ditch the Alfa and choose another car.

appie,these are my recommendations and I'm sure they will be supported by many racers.(I hope)

Sjaak.

YE YE YE i agree with that !

BUT !

in my opinion , if chance the car

no can be BMW's , has too much ! CLK and TT is a good choice i think !

HOLLA!👍

 

[Sjaak]

YE YE YE i agree with that !

BUT !

in my opinion , if chance the car

no can be BMW's , has too much ! CLK and TT is a good choice i think !

HOLLA!👍

You can't say the BMW is so much better then the rest looking at the results from race 1.
The ability of the drivers has to much impact in races like these.
The only way by saying the BMW is FAR better is by testing all the cars by yourself.
And I dare to say The BMW is not the best car in the series.
On the other hand it suits my driving style pretty good.
But that's a matter of personal opinion.

 

[X-Othermic]

Im still going, and i suck. My best split was something like a 34.8 or something, with a fastest lap of 1'03.1. I hate the HSR.

 

[EFJ]

You can't say the BMW is so much better then the rest looking at the results from race 1.
The ability of the drivers has to much impact in races like these.
The only way by saying the BMW is FAR better is by testing all the cars by yourself.
And I dare to say The BMW is not the best car in the series.
On the other hand it suits my driving style pretty good.
But that's a matter of personal opinion.

Yo i forgot say

is not for that , '' the best car '' , is the constructor board challenge !
i m drive opel astra is a very good car !

 

[sukerkin]

Gentlemen. Far be it from me to attempt to legislate here, as its not my series, but I think perhaps that it is time to leave alone the "My car is worse than xxx" comments.

As it happens, the BMW, to pick out one oft mentioned worthy, is a very good car indeed and in the race up for this week, with me at the helm and power/weight as laid out in post one, is half a second faster or more per lap than the CLK I have to enter with. This is on a track I would expect to favour the CLK ... so God help us on the twisty stuff !.

Now I haven't said a word about the relative performance of the ride I was assigned, whereas I could easily complain that it's more prone to understeer than the others or doesn't pull as well or some other 'fault' etc etc. It's all about doing what you can with what you've got in the time you have. It's not the end of the world if the hardware you've picked isn't a sure-fire-hit; this is just OLR i.e. there's no money or publicity contracts involved .

Everyone likes to win, that is true, but don't rob others of the fun they might gain by trying (wrongly I feel) to undermine their placings by pinning it on the car they're in. On the flip side, denigrating your car is equally unsporting if by doing so the goal is to 'have in hand' a reason for not winning or gain a 'rules edge' for that car (not suggesting for a moment that such is occuring here, by the way, just drawing on a few years experience at this 'game').

The Alfa drivers have a legitimate complaint it would seem (I didn't base-line test the Alfa, it turns out, so I can't comment from actual track time) and I would've expected some number juggling to be required for the Calibra and 190E as they seriously underperformed in stock-trim testing but everyone else has a more or less level playing field.

There's going to be some variation obviously, because people are in different cars and some will suit certain drivers better than others (for example I didn't like the Audi TT-R because it was too twitchy under braking for my taste (if I remember rightly) but liked the Astra because of the on-tap power oversteer). In the end tho', things are not all that unbalanced and all it takes is for those in a marginally slower car to have a touch more practice and luck for things to turn around.

I suppose, in summation, I'm saying enjoy the racing; that's the important thing.

 

[Drew22]

I agree with you man, BUT, we were under the impression that the cars had been tested and calibrated so as to closly approximate each other. This was not the case, I think there is a root problem if I can get in two different cars with power and weight "adjusted" and can turn a lap 21/2 seconds faster in one over the other. In the first race ,at sector one I couldn't come within .7 seconds of anyone else, that's in the first 12 seconds of the lap. Now I wasn't expecting to win this race, but I thought I could at least compete, and I know I'm better than last place. Now I don't mind losing at all, I've had my arse handed to me many times in the WRS and other series, but at least I was competing on a level playing field, which is not the case here. It's real hard to run a race and enjoy it when you know there is no possible way to be competitive, the fun factor just drops to zero.
Obviosly I picked the wrong car and that's my fault for not doing the proper testing, but I figured that they had all been tested and adjusted accordingly, again my mistake. I'd really love to continue this series, but it's very hard to get excited knowing I don't have a prayer. I know it's only OLR, and I have plenty of other things in life to make me feel good, but I really enjoy driving in the evening after running my business all day. On most weekends I'm busy working on, showing or driving my '70 Chevelle, but come night time I really look forward to my OLR. Check out the results next Monday for the JGTC series, I have a real good chance of taking first, of course that will cost me some weight additions next week, but at least I've still got a chance of placing, not a guaranteed last place.

 

[sukerkin]

Are you in the Alfa, Drew?

If so, I think Appie's recognised the general lack of competativeness of that car and laid on the table the opportunity of changing to another vehicle.

This is not a substitute for getting the cars balanced beforehand, true, but is a step towards removing the worst of the inequities.

It's the young chaps first series and he's bound not to get things right staright off the bat, so don't pour cold water on his enthusiasm too early. Allow time for things to be sorted to most peoples liking.

This doesn't mean I don't take your points (for me, for example, it's tough knowing that, despite some prior comments from others, the BMW out-performs it's opposition) but does mean you should try to enjoy the series for what it is ... an early attempt to get an all-human-driver DTM series off the ground. If I had the time, I'd balance the cars myself but, sadly, I don't have those elusive hours available.

Appie has the base-line data I gave him on most of the cars in the on-grid list and is now learning the valuable GT4 lesson that power/weight ratios are not the whole story. This'll mean, I hope, that he'll be able to see the sense of what's been said about the need for good, pre-series, testing, by a few top-end drivers, on at least two 'signature' tracks, to figure out what mods need to be done to balance them up. With that experience behind him, I'm sure that either the rest of this series or his next will produce less unrest.

 

[Drew22]

I'd love to change cars, I didn't see where that was mentioned. You're right though about cutting him some slack, I didn't realize this was his first series, it's a lot of work and a great opportunity to be a target. I applaud anyone that's willing to stick their neck out, and to put in the time and get the abuse that sometimes comes with it. I sure don't have the time or patience, and I have to be the heavy enough in real life, so I'll let others do it here. Hey sukerkin, thanks for stopping in you gave me a better perspective. As usual you have very valid points...seeya.

 

[Sphinx]

Just taking a break from the 15 lapper and thought I would chime in with a few comments.

@sukerkin,
I don't see a problem with drivers saying whatever they feel about their car, or anyone else's car for that matter.
It's not as if this discussion has turned into a flame war, it's about drivers having different opinions, and to be honest it interests me to know how others see things. For example, you still claim the BMW is better on the "twisty stuff", even though I showed this not to be the case when I tested and compared both cars at Tsubuka (Tsubuka = "twisty stuff"?)

CLK after 10 laps for race #1 48'2's and more to come off.

I spent over an hour to get the BMW time of 1'48.151 in time trial and only 10 laps to get 1'48.263 in the CLK. I would think the data provided here is enough proof to rule that notion incorrect, and yet you continue to state otherwise.

Interesting.



You have now hinted that the BMW may even be the better car on HSR, I admit the CLK understeers on these high speed corners but it does rather make up for it in straight line speed, which is most of the track is it not?

Again, interesting.

So you see, this isn't a flame war, it's a discussion that IMO is a worthy one, because I at least think it's interesting enough to be discussed. 👍

Oh yeah, and it also keeps this thread active

 

[nitro_2005]

I haven't had a chance to do the 15 lapper yet. Might do it tonight, but if not, then tomorrow or, at the latest, sunday afternoon.

 

[Appie]

man that CLK is a little bit understeery
hard to get a good lap
BTW thnx for the help Sukerkin:tup: