Enough is Enough...

  • Thread starter Joe43302
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I look at Prologue as the beta that it is and I cannot pass judgment until the final release because PD has no real obligation to fix the the game we all knew was a beta when we bought it. At the same time, I must agree with Earth. Many things can be easily implemented or fixed, yet they mess up the things we like. I absolutely hate spending hours and hours working out a decent "set" for a car/track only to have the server removed. That is nonsense.

Many people, for reasons I have yet to conclude, make Kazunori Yamauchi out to be some sort of " end all, be all, simulation guru". The people who think this have never raced a decent PC sim because, if they did, they would probably retract their beliefs. Yamauchi may include a plethora of cars and implement great graphics, but his GT series is still a long way behind the offerings of the better PC sims. The sad part is that he has a budget that most others would kill for. You can't tell me that he doesn't have the ability, not to mention the clout, to fix many of our biggest issues at the drop of his hat. If GT5 is his baby, Child Protective Services might need to check in on him once in a while. At least he cares how his "kid" looks. :)

A lot of PC sims may not touch GT in the graphical arena, but they have a much better multi-player system, far better/more accurate physics (albeit there are less cars to code for), more race options, a functional penalty system, realistic suspension and aerodynamic damage (some have realistic body damage as well), and generally more mature drivers because of the higher level of difficulty...all on a fraction of the cash he gets to work with.

I will most certainly buy GT5 and I am sure I will be satisfied with the final product. While I look at GT5P as the Demo it is, I will also see GT5 final as the casual console game it is too.
 
homeforsummer
Big "meh".

It's the OP's right not to play the game if he doesn't want, but at the end of the day, it's only a game, and not worth getting so worked up over. Yes, there are faults, but I'm sure they'll get tackled one by one.

And I don't understand people who get so annoyed over the online mode. So there are bad drivers, nothing you can do. I've been in some pretty hectic races, and a number of races in a row where the same drivers display the same bad driving. The challenge is simply to beat them. If you can't beat them then you're resigning yourself to the fact that you can't beat idiots. Letting them scare you off the online mode is quite sad, really.
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I would tend to agree.

I have never been an "online gamer". GT5:P is my first real foray into online gaming. I was expecting complete chaos. I was expecting to get worked by 12 year old savants. I have been pleasantly surprised. I'm winning at least 60 - 70% of my races, and meeting a lot of fantastic clean drivers along the way. Most all of the GTP tagged drivers I have met online have been an utter joy to race with, and some new good friends have been made. Of course, I am "new" to online racing, and thus I do not have much of a point of reference to go by. I have not played GTR2 online, or Rfactor, or LiveforSpeed. So, I don't have much of an idea of how they really work, or what they do right or wrong in comparison to GT5:P. I just know how the online has made me feel thus far, and all in all, it's been a lot of fun.



;)
 
I understand the OP, but I think that as soon as the online features he wants get available, he'll go back to play GT5:P again.


On a personal note, all the complaints I have seen here since GT5:P was released in Europe and NA have already had one effect on my plans: I was planning to buy a PS3 as soon as this GT5:P was released and I lost interest.

However ... GRID is to be released in June or July (demo out this month), and it seems we'll have, in this game, everything we are missing in GT5:P (I'm talking about online features, such as private lobbies, kick/ban options, race settings and voice chat).

SO, and considering my excellent experience with TRD3-online, I'll probably buy the PS3 to play a CodeMasters game and not to play a PD game. Something I never thought would be possible, because I like sims and we all know that CodeM games are more on the arcade side of racing games.

After that, and since I already bought the PS3, I'll surely buy GT5:P, to add it to my collection of GT games. I'll just probably wait for this fall (and the promised upgrade/patch) to do it.
 
I'd agree with the original poster. Sure, there are promises of "it will get fixed, added etc,", but we're 18 months since launch of the PS3 and we still don't have an integrated XMB, Home and Africa... :-)

If you want to blindly just say, "hey, it will be fixed", then that's fine, but it's been 4 years and there are a ton of PS3 games with voice chat and lobbies. Even XBL titles have voice chat and lobbies. GT: Prologue is really really far behind in a ton of areas in basic gameplay.

If you say, "like what" then you just don't have much experience with online racing games like GTR 2, Live for Speed, Rfactor, Nascar, Forza 1, Forza 2 etc. GT: Prologue isn't very deep in any area except graphics. I could list about 100 or more features missing, that are found in other games. If you haven't played many other racing sims it's a case of "you don't know what you don't know".

I agree with the original poster. PD is way way way too focused on car models. It seems like they don't believe there user base has evolved since 2004. Some probably haven't, but the rest of the racing world, both offline and online has evolved. I spent about 15 hours online and did all the A,B,C "missions" in GT: Prologue and I've had enough too.

I'm keeping my copy (digital download, opps) and will be looking for updates, but for now I'm going back to GTR 2 and Live for Speed with a bit of Forza 2 (although, I can't tear myself away from the G25!). They do a significantly better job utilizing the Logitech G25 I spent $279 on at Fry's.

I hope PD is paying attention to the majority of their paying customers and aren't living in the past. We'll see, but from what PD has stated GT 5 won't be out until next summer and at this point I wouldn't doubt it will be delayed. If they were a bit closer, I'd give them more benefit of the doubt, but they are so far behind in so many areas... It doesn't seem like they've changed much since the original Japan launch. If they keep this rate of improvement, we'll only see more cars, more tracks and bare bones improvements on the gameplay.
 
I think my attitude towards the quality (or lack of) of the online racing is influenced by GT5P being the first game I've ever played online. I expected there'd be a few bad eggs racing, after all it's a massively popular game and the online aspect has probably persuaded even more gamers to it.

Even so, I have been in some pretty rough races, but is it really that hard for people to shrug off a bad race? It's annoying for sure, but I'm getting the impression that some people are on the verge of destroying their 42" plasma TVs here...

My tips if you're having a run of bad races:
- Try a different circuit
- Then do a different class, even if it means going to Intermediate if you usually race in pro. That way you've a very slim chance of meeting the same racers
- If you're any good, you'll win a few times. This does wonders for your sanity and will boost your confidence
- Come back to the race you were doing 20 mins later. In that time you're probably four races down the line and chances are the bad drivers will have given up and gone elsewhere

If all else fails, play a game like GTA:IV where someone ramming you off the road is hilarious as opposed to infuriating...
 
homeforsummer
If all else fails, play a game like GTA:IV where someone ramming you off the road is hilarious as opposed to infuriating...
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:) That had me laughing. This is a little off topic, but I was in a GTAIV race with a friend from Gran Turismo 5 and we were racing very clean...subconsciously. We realized what we were doing and started laughing so hard we never finished the race. I guess the habit carries over.
 
JackB
If you say, "like what" then you just don't have much experience with online racing games like GTR 2, Live for Speed, Rfactor, Nascar, Forza 1, Forza 2 etc. GT: Prologue isn't very deep in any area except graphics. I could list about 100 or more features missing, that are found in other games. If you haven't played many other racing sims it's a case of "you don't know what you don't know".

...........
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IGN: Obviously Gran Turismo is the stand-out title in its field on the PlayStation 3, but do you ever look at the competition elsewhere, such as Forza on the Xbox or GTR on PC?

Kazunori Yamauchi: I know there are a lot of titles out there, and some of these do things we haven't done yet. But what we're trying to do is perfect every part of what we have so far, and then move on to the next part which we will perfect, and we're doing this in steps, and we'd like people to look forward to those steps.
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http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=130180
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/864/864502p1.html
http://games.kikizo.com/news/200804/008.asp
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=186087
http://www.topgear.com/content/features/stories/2008/04/stories/13/1.html
http://tv.multiplayer.it/2251/gran-turismo-5-prologue-filmato-17-intervista-a-kazunori-yamauchi
 
The only thing I hate is the online. All the other things (like no performance parts, photomode, few tracks) are understandable. I thought GT fans were supposed to be good drivers, but not online. Then again, online racing almost always sucks. The only game that I like racing online is Motorstorm. At least in Motorstorm ramming is expected.
 
I really don't mind online. The thing is if you are a superb driver then it's always easy to dodge and weave around the loonies that drive like maniacs. Sometimes one does get caught out but there are ways to survive the mayhem around you. Now if we could get online lobbies
 
i must say i do feel a bit weird about Prologue so far. Its hard to put my finger on it.. and its not online because i haven't tried it yet. The only word that comes to mind is "Sterile"... I feel like the world of GT has gone cold... yes its HD... but HD cold. I don't get the feeling that the environment supports the race, the cars are very nice looking, but are somehow not animated or alive... everything seems stale to me..

I'm not sure how to put it into words, but that's what i get. Anyone else feels this?
 
RedOak
i must say i do feel a bit weird about Prologue so far. Its hard to put my finger on it.. and its not online because i haven't tried it yet. The only word that comes to mind is "Sterile"... I feel like the world of GT has gone cold... yes its HD... but HD cold. I don't get the feeling that the environment supports the race, the cars are very nice looking, but are somehow not animated or alive... everything seems stale to me..

I'm not sure how to put it into words, but that's what i get. Anyone else feels this?
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I actually know what you mean, but it doesn't bother me too much. I have always loved the GT games and it seems odd how technically so little can change, but for me the improvements in graphics, the in car view, and the more realistic handling have made it more immersive for me, and that's what I want from a racing game.

To give the game "character" though, we need more weather effects and even different times of day for the circuits - everywhere is bathed in sunshine at the moment so everything looks almost too shiny, I think that is what gives the impression of "staleness".

And I still maintain that online racing isn't that bad. Honestly, I'm not one to blow my own trumpet, but if you're quick enough then the bad drivers simply can't get near you. If you're bumbling about in the midfield the whole time then you're going to get caught up in all the idiots who don't like being beaten. All the quick drivers are at the front having a proper race...
 
Thats true , but unfortinately some are as dirty as they are quick.
Im resonablly quick but inconsistant!always manage an off, chase up to 1 -2 sec behind who I was behind then off again by own mistake or punted by a dirty driver.
I cant wait for these chat rooms to come online.
 
superwally
A short time reading these forums reveals that large numbers of people are enjoying the aspects of the game that you consider to be failures, yet, in your mind, these "issues" are completely real and factual. Do you ignore that which you do not believe?

I don't know dude. Are you this demanding with all the other stuff you buy? Your expectations here seem fantastical, selfish, and ignorant.
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Apparently you ignore that which you do not believe if you believe that there are no issues, and yes, I'm this demanding with everything I buy, because I want perfection. If you can't deliver it, than you might be in the wrong line of work.

Do you honestly think I care how making video games happen? Don't you think if I knew I'd probably be making them? As I stated before, I could care less what goes into making them, and the reason I don't care is because I pay for them for the freedom of not having to know. What do I do for a living? I operate two giant robots that sort out product while at the same time maintaining them, keeping the federal documentation for them, and ensuring that they are labeled, processed, and shipped out exactly where they need to be. What do we make? Popcorn. Simple popcorn. I perform one single job out of an entire process it takes to get a bag of microwave popcorn to your store. Let me ask you, do you want to learn every single step it takes to perform my job and everyone elses, or would you rather pay the $5 for a box so you don't have to? What if I sold you a box missing packs with a few that exploded during the manufacturing process? Would you be happy about that? Let me tell you something, every other day one of my lazy, loafabout co-workers gets walked out the door and escorted off the property. Do you think I care? It's sad, in a way, but at the same time it makes me wonder if they cared about their job that much don't you think they'd be working hard to protect it? When lay-off's come around, guess who gets to sit there and do his paperwork while a line of people stand there crying to each other about how "It's not fair"? Yeah, it's not fair, you didn't put out 100% and thought you'd get by giving a half effort, and suddenly when you're out of a job you want to work hard.

Would you like to know why games lack the quality they used to have? Because people are more than OK with paying for that low quality. Do they care? Why should they? I mean, you're going to buy it anyway, ignore the faults, and pretend it's the best thing ever. Why would they put the time, effort, and care into making a game superb when they can get by just fine with making it half decent?

So now you tell me, why is it OK to settle for less? When I look back on my life and say I spent a bit of it playing video games, which is already bad enough, I don't want to catch myself going "...and more than a few were just barely passable..." Maybe it's just me, but I'd like to be able to look back on that little aspect and have as little regret as possible. As it stands with Prologue, I don't think I could make that claim with a straight face, but I guess I can't hold Prologue solely to blame, since most games now are starting to follow the same trend.
 
Joe43302
[snip]
Do you honestly think I care how making video games happen? Don't you think if I knew I'd probably be making them? As I stated before, I could care less what goes into making them, and the reason I don't care is because I pay for them for the freedom of not having to know. [/snip]
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"I could care less" - what a silly phrase, always used incorrectly.

Anyway, I think people are merely asking you to understand how much work goes into these games not actually understand C++.
As a rookie game developer myself, I can say with no doubt that the games industry is the most cut-throat industry out there, get the game wrong, bye bye goes your career (usually).
Development of a decent game from the ground level without using a pre-made game engine takes at least 3 years. Thats a lot of time and money wasted if the game is a pile of poo. As such, us programmers/modellers/etc are working night and day to try and ensure the game is working exactly as intended and that it will actually sell.
Its very frustrating to spend whole months working out this brilliant feature for your game, fixing problems, coming against brick walls, getting around them etc, for then to be told by an alpha or even beta tester that the feature doesnt work very well or isnt really suitable.

And dont think we dont plan ahead, we do, but unfortunately, the creator always looks upon his creation in a completely different light to the observer.

So, with all this in mind, please understand that games are hardly going to be perfect 100% of the time, super-especially a demo/beta like Prologue.

You feel PD are going in the wrong direction with making the cars look more realistic? Where have you been? Thats happened all the way through the GT series! In fact, many see this version as a sign of change that PD might be finally doing something other than graphical impressiveness. The physics engine is far improved, audio has improved, AI has slightly improved even.

The only issues I can see with the game (badly thought out offline events and the online both racing and time trials) are things that PD seem to be testing out and changing to see the reaction of the target audience. Thats the whole point in prologue and it links to what I said earlier about the trouble with making games. The valuable information they gather from issues people have with Prologue will mean GT5 full will be more and more perfect. This is not some folorn hope I have, you can quite clearly see that PD are testing different online events and tweaking gameplay now and again through updates.

In conclusion, I feel you are judging this game in a wrong light and not taking in the bigger picture of what Prologue means. You should also research your games better if you wish to have "perfection" in every purchase. In my opinion, perfection is impossible, but then again, perfection is purely an opinion anyway, what is perfect to someone is not perfect to someone else.

Oh, and you're not "settling for less", you're getting more! Would you rather PD not have released Prologue and continued to work on GT5 for another 2,3 whatever years? Once again ignoring what the fans think and making perhaps some features which could have been avoided with adequate player testing? Thats what Prologue is here to do, give you perfection.
 
Earth
Example of crappy racing and crappy penalties online:

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I don't feel like the red car is the guilty one...

Anyways, try to think some basic rules where the penalties would apply correctly, and I'm sure anybody will give you a counter case where that's an unfair penalty. And that's not software engineering, that's common sense. Get some crashes on F1 or other competitions, and you'll even find that humans can't agree who was right or who was wrong.

If humans can't agree on some crashes, how can you expect that from a machine which is thousands of times harder to show him how to decide it?
 
KakCAT
I don't feel like the red car is the guilty one...

Anyways, try to think some basic rules where the penalties would apply correctly, and I'm sure anybody will give you a counter case where that's an unfair penalty. And that's not software engineering, that's common sense. Get some crashes on F1 or other competitions, and you'll even find that humans can't agree who was right or who was wrong.

If humans can't agree on some crashes, how can you expect that from a machine which is thousands of times harder to show him how to decide it?
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I agree on what you said, except in that video, watch carefully. The Ferrari clearly rammed him, watch his rear view mirror and then the reaction of the car.
 
I'm sorry to say but very immature attitude. You demand that they fix the issues by end of May? Are you serious?

PD could care less about your demands and ultimatums. If you don't like the game then sell it or just put on the shelf until the fall update. But it just sounds silly when you give PD an ultimatum claiming you're going to sell the game if they don't fix it by May. I'm sure Kaz has read your post and is having a big meeting tomorrow to rush his staff to make improvements so that you don't sell your copy.

You have to admit that it sounds like a childish and silly threat. :dunce:
 
Ardius
I agree on what you said, except in that video, watch carefully. The Ferrari clearly rammed him, watch his rear view mirror and then the reaction of the car.
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yes... maybe. I mean, the red car didn't touch the main player until he started turning to the left, shouldn't he have given more space in order not to collide?

I think that it's really the ferrari's fault, but given the bad video quality no external replays, and no context information, I wouldn't blame the ferrari only with that evidence...


The point I wanted to raise is that from a code standpoint it's not that easy to decide who's colliding who, who's bumping who, or who's the one to get the penalty, because it's not even easy with humans deciding that.
 
One less sale, WHOOP DEE ******* DOO!

Geez, you weren't forced with a gun to buy Prologue, nor the wheel, nor spend the time playing.

Now I understand there are problems, but some things like online are what Prologue is here for - to sort out any problems before the real deal GT5 comes.
 
superb16
So true. Everyone uses it wrong. If you "could care less", then you still care at least a little bit.
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Yes, even funnier that right below your post:

MowTin
PD could care less about your demands and ultimatums. I
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People, it's couldn't. Learn your grammar better or not at all, you have no excuse, it's your native language. (If it's not, sorry :scared:)
 
More mature drivers = fewer drivers = less money for Sony = Sony loses. Most people aren't going to be the drivers you want, and GT5, unlike GTR2, is a mass market product. Gran Turismo 5 is not a full-on racing simulator, and neither has been any of the Gran Turismo games. Gran Turismo 5 represents a compromise between arcade and simulation, biased towards the sim end but diluted enough to be palatable to a mass audience. You will have kids and you will have bumpers, because the game is not a niche product and most people don't know what a blue flag is for, let alone course etiquette. If you want a true sim, you can buy Grand Prix Legends, because PD will never make such a game if they know what is financially good for them.

I unfortunately am not in a position to afford a PS3 right now as I have spent a huge amount of money upgrading my PC, but even I can see that Prologue isn't even a complete game nor is it marketed as such, and is created by a company new to the online aspect of gaming. Polyphony Digital has already promised to give you private races. GT5 will have plenty of bumpers and bad drivers, simply because there aren't enough people really into auto racing regulations to make a game salable.

To expect the features of a fully fledged game in a "prologue" of a game that is still a year or more from RTM (most game demos are released only shortly before RTM, sometimes even afterwards) is ridiculous, but it doesn't even come close to the sheer insanity of blaming PD for the behavior of other players in online races, the majority of whom are probably not even real motorsports fans, and expecting a dumb machine running unfinished software to perform like real track marshals.

As for myself, I couldn't care less what the online part is like, because I never race online, and my copy of GTR2 is so heavily modded it would probably be rejected by servers if I went online with it.
 
I knew exactly what I was getting into when I bought Gran Turismo 5 Prolouge. I wasn't dissapointed at all with it. I researched the JPN and EU versons and knew pretty much what I was getting myself into. I actually feel privledged to be a part of the development process, although a very smal part of the devlopment process. I have fun with it. I enjoy racing my fellow GTP'rs and feel very fortunate that PD has givin us all the oportunity to race GT5:P. Have a nice day. And happy racing!
 
Ever since I played GT1 I've wanted online play. I've turned many, many hotlaps in all versions...I'm bored of hotlaps. The online play for GT5:P sucks. I'm not really stoked about the game. I am a GT nut...Live IT, Breathe It. I bought my PS3 with the anticipation of this game, and now I am in for another 150$ for wheel and pedals. Is it about the money? **** ya it is. I've waited YEARS for the ONLINE thing to happen, and I feel like a kid with a balloon that just popped.
SONY is in a win/win cituation, they can release a premature game on past popularity, charge us for it, we test it, and they patch it LATER...They get time and money, more money when the full version comes out, more money on track packs, more money on downloadeable cars, etc, etc,. And yes the consumer does deserve as close to perfection as possible. I would encourage any of you reading this to check out the making of the game in the movie section GT5. The creator of GT5 is definetely a perfectionist.
 

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