Keef
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Europe - The Official Thread
- Thread starter Touring Mars
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Keef
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Anyway.
The German travelcompany TUI is already counting on the return of the Drachme as currency in Greece.
German Clickie.
Can't find a English website.
Edit. Found it.
English Clickie
The German travelcompany TUI is already counting on the return of the Drachme as currency in Greece.
German Clickie.
Can't find a English website.
Edit. Found it.
English Clickie
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- 906
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Let me say this, but I'm glad the eurozone is impolding because it quickening the death of the welfare state and fiat money as we know it. Overall the eurozone crisis and the ongoing/undeclared depression that america is experiening is just a consequence for abandoning real money 40 years ago e.g gold and silver.
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Let's hope that Italy is quicker to respond to the misery than Greece. Now that Berlusconi is out of the way things should go a lot better for them.
Greece on the other hand, I think it's done. More and more politicians are screaming for lesser budgetcuts. Dumb people. They need to get kicked out of the Euro, ASAP.
Greece on the other hand, I think it's done. More and more politicians are screaming for lesser budgetcuts. Dumb people. They need to get kicked out of the Euro, ASAP.
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I believe the issue is not getting the budget in balance, the issue is where the money should come from.
Greece seems to have to cut on the cost of governing and that hurts, a lot.
They also ask the "general public" for efforts, however people have the impression that the "big capital" stays out of the efforts and that is unacceptable for them.
Like the Belgian motto: Unity makes strength
Germany seeks labour relief from Greece
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The Greek conservatist party announced that they will not agree with new governement cuts. That would be funny.
On a side note, the Dutch political party PVV has started an investigation to the costs of the Netherlands stepping out of the Euro, as we Dutch people were really shafted when the Euro came into our wallets. Something our minister of Finance at the time denied, but when he resigned, and got a good job at ABN AMRO bank, he told we were shafted good.
On a side note, the Dutch political party PVV has started an investigation to the costs of the Netherlands stepping out of the Euro, as we Dutch people were really shafted when the Euro came into our wallets. Something our minister of Finance at the time denied, but when he resigned, and got a good job at ABN AMRO bank, he told we were shafted good.
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Ibonibo
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I believe the issue is not getting the budget in balance, the issue is where the money should come from.
Exactly. Greece has very low export economy.And now with the actual situation, investors will not go in Greece. Siemens declared today they will not open a new factory in Greece because of the situation.
Greece seems to have to cut on the cost of governing and that hurts, a lot.
They also ask the "general public" for efforts, however people have the impression that the "big capital" stays out of the efforts and that is unacceptable for them.
Well the ECB bought the greek papers, and most of them belong to one of the wealtiest greeks (one of those who is blamed not paying taxes for years, which should be millions)
Like the Belgian motto: Unity makes strength
Is that sarcastic?
What I don't like is how people talk about bank and bankers. There are a few black sheeps, granted. But most banks work for the customer, if the customers speculates in high volatile products, everybody blames the bank and not the customer.
Now not all products that customer wants and banks offer are good, moral,...
I think the whole economy would be better off if we had the free market from the beginning. Because the banks that speculated too much would not be safed by the state. thus they would not offer those products that would endanger them. But as the states bail them out, they continue to offer them. (which is normal, if your parents or the state would bail you out of every big loss you make in the casino, but let you keep all the gains, you would never quit gambling)
Now there should be placed a legal framework what product are moral and legal and which not.
Speculating on cereals is for me a crime against humanity, cause those brokers and customers are the reason a lot of people die from starvation.
An other exemple are leverage products. Which is a funny story.
Politics blamed the leverage products being part responsible of the crisis 2008. Now the EU had put a leverage on the EFSF to max the capital of it.
So now it is ok and tv news channel and economics tv channels put ads in it with only leverage products.
I find that hillarious (in a bad and shallow way)
All I want to say : not all banks, bankers, brokers and inverstors are bad.
I also play a little with stocks and other products but I would never invest in a product that would harm people. With little power comes responsibility, no matter how big it is.
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It's the deregulating of banking practices which is one of the biggest reasons we have this issue.
Take sub-prime mortgages. Deregulation let banks package-off groups of sub-prime loans to investment companies. The high rate of interest on these packaged loans made them irresistible to those wanting to make short-term gains. This ment the banks who gave the loans had no vested interest in whether the person taking out the loan could pay it back or not - it wasn't their investment anymore, they'd already sold it on and washed their hands of it.
Previously that bank would have wanted to ensure the person was right for the loan, otherwise they'd obviously loose money on the deal, so they'd only give the loan out as long as they were sure they'd have the means to pay it back.
Banks shouldn't have been saved by the state. But the banking industry regulations shouldn't have been decimated the way they were in the first place. They were put there in the first place, after the great depression, to stop individuals and smaller companies from loosing their money and therefore slowing the economy.
Fifty years later, regulations get slashed and low and behold people start loosing their houses and savings, and companies start finding it hard to get loans. Economy is up the creek again.
The bankers are the only people who've gained from all this. It's win-win for them.
Dotini
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Lot of truth here.
...and perhaps here, too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9dGHuRExiM
Catharine Austin Fitts on the most recent looting of America, the land of plenty.
Respectfully submitted,
Steve
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deregulation in no way had anything to do with the current economic crisis, however the current crisis is merely a symptom of bad monetary policies that have been going from the time of central banking
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Ibonibo
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True. And the most common lack is : .... Common sense (selling empty stocks? hello?? How would that be possible in real life?)
The common problem of todays problem is Debt. (states, banks, companies or private doesn't matter)
On the more aboce i said. I mainly speak about the last 30 years, where in the 80's and 90's a lot of what you said happened.
Dotini
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The Germans appear to be very serious about anyone stepping out of line in their plans to save Europe from itself. As serious as WWII, Merkel says. Do you suppose that could be as serious a sudden *heart attack* in a Greek opposition party leader? Serious enough to take punitive actions against any other recalcitrant states unwilling to knuckle under? Two European PMs have vacated office in two weeks. That should be a wake up call heard all over Europe, and possibly beyond.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/14/europe-could-be-in-worst-hour-since-ww2-merkel/
LEIPZIG, Germany (Reuters) - German Chancellor Angela Merkelsaid on Monday that Europe could be living through its toughest hour since World War Two as new leaders in Italy and Greece rushed to form governments and limit the damage from the eurozone debt crisis.
A rally on financial markets sparked by the appointment of respected European technocrats in Rome and Athens soon stalled. Analysts warned that daunting obstacles could hinder the decisive action needed to revive their ailing economies.
Italy had to pay a euro-lifetime record yield of 6.3 percent to sell five-year bonds with investors wary of buying its debt until prime minister-designate Mario Monti can undertake profound economic reforms.
In a first sign of trouble for new Greek Prime Minister Lucas Papademos, the leader of the main conservative party rejected any toughening of austerity and refused to sign a letter sought by European authorities pledging support for a new 130 billion euro bailout.
Respectfully submitted,
Steve
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/14/europe-could-be-in-worst-hour-since-ww2-merkel/
LEIPZIG, Germany (Reuters) - German Chancellor Angela Merkelsaid on Monday that Europe could be living through its toughest hour since World War Two as new leaders in Italy and Greece rushed to form governments and limit the damage from the eurozone debt crisis.
A rally on financial markets sparked by the appointment of respected European technocrats in Rome and Athens soon stalled. Analysts warned that daunting obstacles could hinder the decisive action needed to revive their ailing economies.
Italy had to pay a euro-lifetime record yield of 6.3 percent to sell five-year bonds with investors wary of buying its debt until prime minister-designate Mario Monti can undertake profound economic reforms.
In a first sign of trouble for new Greek Prime Minister Lucas Papademos, the leader of the main conservative party rejected any toughening of austerity and refused to sign a letter sought by European authorities pledging support for a new 130 billion euro bailout.
Respectfully submitted,
Steve
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Now one of the issues on the market for the moment is short selling.
The fluctuations in the Euro zone are part due to short selling. Someone sells things thinking the market will go down and at that moment does not own the thing they sell yet.
On itself it is just a normal broker thing, you are looking for something, I sell it to you, but it is someone else (a broker) that delivers, then only I go and find it (you do not have to look, negotiate, etc...) and give it back to the broker at a certain time against a certain cost. If I got a profit good for me, otherwise bad for me.
Normally this is a good thing, creating a liquidity in the market and an easier way to do transactions. The issue is that it can be a self fulfilling prophecy by creating a panic that will make the value go down = I sell sell sell, even if I have no stock and people think the confidence is lost in the market, sell as well and the price goes down. I buy when the price is down and made a good profit, the company has liquidity issues with the clients that go out since the market does not believe in it and the company goes bust. Me as short seller needs to find a new pigeon to get my bonus.
There the ethical point comes in. Beginning of the year I got an investment tip, food prices will go up. I do believe it is unethical to contribute with investment products to famine (not our moderator, but the thing that really kills people) so I did not react, but not everyone is that way.
Deregulation allows this, the short seller gets richer and the employees of the company lose their job, the investor in food options wins and third world countries need help to solve the famine.
So deregulation yes on responsibility, but the products available in the market should contribute to stability. Best would be that investors do not follow the short sellers, but share price = emotion, emotion, emotion.
Calculated investments are that way now, we calculate value on future cash flows and the future is what you believe = emotion.
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Yes they do, and yet it is harsh medicine... if they reject the bailout in favour of exiting the Euro and going for a total default, there is a good chance that Greece will emerge from the ruins sooner, and in better shape for the future. If they accept the bailout and go down the route being dictated to them by Germany and France, then there is a chance that Greece might be stuck in a permanently weakened state, and forever kowtowing to the political will of foreign states. That's the essential problem - the government needs the bailout cash, but taking it may send Greece down a road that the people simply won't accept.
Ibonibo
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@Vince: yes, i understand that the financial market acts a bit different but selling something you actually don't own and then buy it later which you already sold is a bit of a "are you kidding me".
And it's just one exemple of so many financial products that are wrong, like the food brokering which you refused, which is very good 👍
But that also doesn't mean that all financial products are not good, there are many that have a reason to exist (swift, forex, stock brokerage,...)
@touring mars : Correct. If they return to the old currency, Greece can again become attractive to investors because of the lower cost it will create.
And in that case, Greece could also leverage their way out of their debt, simply saying to banks and the loaners: "I have nothing, either I give you back 10% or nothing".
The worst problem I forsee for Greece if it stays in the Euro, is that the people of Greece maybe tend to elect a left or right wing to make way for their steam. That could be dangerous.
Also having a debt that cripples a country for generations is worring as we saw the outcome in Germany after the WW1.
@Dotini: what you article doesn't show, maybe lost in translation, is the BS merkel and Sarko talks about the EU:
"If the Euro fails the EU fails"
Wrong, the EU stands for far more than the Euro, like a "intern" market (sorry my business english is a bit rusty)
Yesterday Merkel said that this is the worst condition the EU had since WW2, which is wrong, because the ECC was created some years after the WW2.
...
If I hear that nonesense talk from politicans, my backhairs curl up. If I would have wrote such wrong information in my papers I would not have gotten any diplomas.
The best that this showed is what the politicians are up too: I now heard several times from high ranked positions that what they want from the EU is basicly a United States of Europe.
A federal state. Countries giving up their souverainity.
I don't want that, and I don't think I am the only one.
The EU was created as an economic union and it should stay like that. Nobody wants a political union. Surly not in the next 20 years. And I was and am a fan of the EU as it stands for now or was 10 years ago (15 states)
Now there also has been talks about the 2 factions of the EU (Euro and non-Euro) and dementies all over the place. Fact is Merkel and Sarko are responsible for that. sarko told Cameron to shut up. They didn't invite the other countries to their meetings,.... Yet all the non Euro countries are as deep in the popo as the Euro ones. Or doesn't the Uk banks or Swedish banks hold papers of the deficit states?
Well we got 2012 and 2013 where Sarko and Merkel will need to go. Hope their follower are a bit less high headed
And it's just one exemple of so many financial products that are wrong, like the food brokering which you refused, which is very good 👍
But that also doesn't mean that all financial products are not good, there are many that have a reason to exist (swift, forex, stock brokerage,...)
@touring mars : Correct. If they return to the old currency, Greece can again become attractive to investors because of the lower cost it will create.
And in that case, Greece could also leverage their way out of their debt, simply saying to banks and the loaners: "I have nothing, either I give you back 10% or nothing".
The worst problem I forsee for Greece if it stays in the Euro, is that the people of Greece maybe tend to elect a left or right wing to make way for their steam. That could be dangerous.
Also having a debt that cripples a country for generations is worring as we saw the outcome in Germany after the WW1.
@Dotini: what you article doesn't show, maybe lost in translation, is the BS merkel and Sarko talks about the EU:
"If the Euro fails the EU fails"
Wrong, the EU stands for far more than the Euro, like a "intern" market (sorry my business english is a bit rusty)
Yesterday Merkel said that this is the worst condition the EU had since WW2, which is wrong, because the ECC was created some years after the WW2.
...
If I hear that nonesense talk from politicans, my backhairs curl up. If I would have wrote such wrong information in my papers I would not have gotten any diplomas.
The best that this showed is what the politicians are up too: I now heard several times from high ranked positions that what they want from the EU is basicly a United States of Europe.
A federal state. Countries giving up their souverainity.
I don't want that, and I don't think I am the only one.
The EU was created as an economic union and it should stay like that. Nobody wants a political union. Surly not in the next 20 years. And I was and am a fan of the EU as it stands for now or was 10 years ago (15 states)
Now there also has been talks about the 2 factions of the EU (Euro and non-Euro) and dementies all over the place. Fact is Merkel and Sarko are responsible for that. sarko told Cameron to shut up. They didn't invite the other countries to their meetings,.... Yet all the non Euro countries are as deep in the popo as the Euro ones. Or doesn't the Uk banks or Swedish banks hold papers of the deficit states?
Well we got 2012 and 2013 where Sarko and Merkel will need to go. Hope their follower are a bit less high headed
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Danoff
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Who do you think bought all those bad loans? And what should happen to them if we want to not repeat this situation? And why didn't that happen? What's the common theme here?
Sphinx
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Have you only just realised this?
Nigel Farage, the prophet. Could also be known as the jester of the EU parliament, laughed and jeered at. Not any more though?
It will never happen. Will it, has it??:
