F1 performance old vs. New

[BradKinder]

I found an F1 going on today at Barcelona, and it got me wondering... Are F1 cars today faster than they've ever been?

 

[Centura]

No.

 

[Alex.]

No they're restricted by ever tightening rules designed to cut costs, slow the cars down and increase safety in the sport. They were fastest around 2004, most powerful around 1985.

 

[Ardius]

They are close to the fastest they've ever gone, recently they have been limited a lot for various reasons (costs, safety, to improve sporting entertainment) but are still getting quite close to the fastest ever times (set in 2004). In theory, if we had the 2004 regulations but with today's ideas and the slick tyres, the cars are definitely the fastest they have ever been (seeing as they are close already).

So to answer your question, no, but almost.

We won't see them get much faster for a long, long time as currently I think its fair to say the cars are going as fast as possible within the safety limitations of the modern day circuits, the abilities of the drivers and with the current limitation of cost.

 

[BradKinder]

I see. So I'm watching Vettel and Hamilton fight for the lead, and they're playing around with some DRS thing. What's that?

It looks like some kind of high performance hybrid system... But I'm not sure.

 

[PeterJB]

It's a flap on the rear wing that is opened by a button on the steering wheel that can only be used by a driver when they are within one second of the car in front. Opening this flap reduces drag (hence the name Drag Reduction System) and makes the car go faster, aiding in overtaking.

 

[BradKinder]

then what's the battery meter about?

 

[Ardius]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KERS

 

[BradKinder]

OK, so F1 KERS is a high performance hybrid system. And DRS is a switch the driver can use to alter his wing. Does a wifi computer tell them when they're able to use DRS, or do they just use it when they know they're going to pass?

 

[PeterJB]

For each circuit, a zone where the DRS can be used is chosen, and once you're in this zone, you need to be within one second of the car in front for it to work when you press the button. Its all transponders and such.

 

[BradKinder]

How much control do the drivers have over the KERS?

 

[Ardius]

They can use it whenever and wherever they like but only for 4.3 seconds per lap (or something like that). Each time they cross the start/finish line, the KERS charge left is reset (not physically, only for the purposes of limiting it to 4.3 seconds or whatever it is). So in theory a driver could use all of his remaining KERS before the line and then use more as he crosses the line.
The only control the drivers have with KERS is using it, the system always charges when they brake (as long as it still works) regardless of how much of that "4.3 seconds" is left.

To simplify it:
Actual battery capacity: for this example, lets say 30 seconds of charge.
Allowed battery usage per lap: 4.3 seconds
So while the drivers can only use the sport-regulated amount of charge per lap, the batteries do store more than that. This is why the on-screen battery gauge does not replenish when they brake - it only replenishes at the start of each lap.

 

[PeterJB]

They can use it for a maximum of roughly 4.3 seconds per lap. It is reset each time they cross the start/finish line.

 

[F1 fan]

There is a dial to modify kers output. I don't know exactly what the options are but it is used to switch between modes. There is also a kers activation button. The driver chooses when to use his allocation, but they don't have to use a laps allocation at once. They can use a little bit out of each corner if they like.

 

[BradKinder]

So I guess there's some sort of switch they hit or hold that dumps the torque of an electric motor into the drivetrain? And it won't work if they hit the 6 seconds-or-so limit per lap?

 

[Ardius]

Yup thats right. I believe the ECU limits the KERS output if it exceeds the 4.3 seconds. You can see this happening sometimes as you might notice the KERS battery graphic turns yellow when the drivers uses it, sometimes you can see them trying to use it when no battery is left.
I think the steering wheels also have a mode where they can view KERS remaining or something like that.

 

[BradKinder]

Oh never mind. It looks like each car and driver might have a different system for using the KERS...

So now race car drivers have to know how to program a hybrid electric transmission. Weird.

I want KERS and nitrous oxide DLC for GT5. Seriously.

 

[Ardius]

Not really, they simply press the button until the battery is depleted. The only thing they have to think about is where to use it and how much they have left. Oh and they also have to be able to deal with the affect it has on the brakes (mainly the rear brakes) as while KERS is active, it takes away some of the braking force, so generally they setup more rear-wards brake bias. But if KERS fails, then they have too much rear brake bias and need to move it forwards.

But its not really that complicated, no more complicated than fiddling with engine maps and differentials..

By the way, this site has a policy for no double posting. Use the edit button if you want to add something else.

 

[F1 fan]

By the way, this site has a policy for no double posting. Use the edit button if you want to add something else.

+1. 3 posts in 4 minutes is a bit extreme. The odd exception to double posting is allowed, but not this severe.

 

[IceMan PJN]

I found an F1 going on today at Barcelona, and it got me wondering...

It sounds like maybe you're unfamiliar with Formula One but you've asked several questions that suggest perhaps developing interest in the world's premier motorsport, so I'm glad to see that. You've asked about a variety of aspects to the current state of the sport, but something just popped into mind that I didn't see yet mentioned.

I should note that tires have been dramatically changed for 2011, and deliberately so. The old Bridgestone tires were absolutely fantastic, offering both great grip and lasting forever. Even the softer tire compound, which gives better lap times at the expense of wearing out faster, still tended to last a lot longer than expected. One stop for tires was normal, and sometimes simply to comply with the rules that state that they absolutely must use one set of each compound (hard and soft) during the race.

For 2011 they switched manufacturers, but also switched expectations of the tires, deliberately wanting tires that fall apart quickly. In the past the track would "rubber in" as rubber gets painted onto the race line, which improves grip, but for 2011 you don't see a patch of rubber smeared along the race line but rather you see balls of rubber ("marbles") piling up like gravel off the race line. Some weeks back I read a figure talking about how many tons of rubber chunks were piled up along the track. Drivers now have to pit several times during a race because their tires literally fall apart.

It isn't a fault of Pirelli's, but rather of the FIA who specifically requested this high wear rate.

 

[F1 fan]

Let me offer another opinion iceman. You obviously prefer the bridgestones, but you paint a bit of a biased picture. It's not fair to try and be helpful to the op whilst programming their mind into sharing your views. The pirelli tires have been a huge success with both the media and the fans.

The fact is, Pirelli have made things more exciting. What more can you ask for?

 

[BradKinder]

I'm glad you posted about the tires. Supposedly the most important technological advancements in the past few decades for motorsport has been the tires. It's too bad that F1 is no longer advancing the development of tires.

I know the title of this thread is old vs new, but the point is really so I get know all the little details of F1. I generally hear it referred to as being the fastest form of car racing. I find it hard to be a big fan of most professional racing leagues, but I do watch on occasion. I remember in the days of GT4, and it must have been in like 2005... When I watched a race when Schumacher was winning all the time. In this race I saw him battle it out from like last place to first place. He actually tail braked into corners with a puff or two of smoke coming off one front tire. He passed people practically drifting in an F1. It was really cool to me since all I knew of F1 was the GT4 F1 car in the game, and that one was incredibly fast. I tried to drive the GT4 F1 in the same way and got pretty good, eventually. Every F1 race I've watched since then hasn't been as exciting... But it's still alright.

I do enjoy RallyCross all the time, no matter what, though.

 

[TenEightyOne]

For each circuit, a zone where the DRS can be used is chosen, and once you're in this zone, you need to be within one second of the car in front for it to work when you press the button. Its all transponders and such.

Almost.

There are two zones associated with DRS. The first is a timing zone. If the following car is within 1s of the car in front then the following car will have its rear wing enabled as they reach the DRS zone.

That means that from Montreal onwards there will be four DRS zones, two for timing and two for deployment.

On general topic; if F1 cars had been left unchecked we'd now see the Formula running 1200bhp V10s with full ground effect, TCS, active ride suspension, moveable driver aero and they'd be lapping 20% faster per lap than they do now.

That would be great to watch but the FIA keeps a limit on things for several reasons;

a) The sport has to be 'affordable' for small teams. It's still a mind-boggling expense...
b) Cars WILL spin out - their speed has to be manageable within the crash resistance technology and human survivability envelopes
c) This goes with (b); organisers have to be able to build tracks with safety features that are sufficient to contain the F1 beasts

 

[BradKinder]

Are the brakes in F1 still without ABS? Since now there's KERS... I don't know.

 

[PeterJB]

I think so, the drivers do lock up a lot.

 

[granturismite]

ABS is outlawed by the technical regs. and on a side note, isn't KERS 6.x seconds a lap?

 

[Centura]

It's 6.7 seconds per lap, right?

It looks like McLaren lock up a lot more than others. Is that down to the car or drivers?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Oh and they also have to be able to deal with the affect it has on the brakes (mainly the rear brakes) as while KERS is active, it takes away some of the braking force, so generally they setup more rear-wards brake bias. But if KERS fails, then they have too much rear brake bias and need to move it forwards.

I thought they added rear bias if KERS failed, since KERS is taking energy from the rear axle so they don't need as much brake power there.

It looks like McLaren lock up a lot more than others. Is that down to the car or drivers?

It's the car. They have it set up to be very stiff, so one of the front tires ends up lifting a bit more than the other cars.

 

[Pupik]

Typically, the cars gain about a second or so a lap per year, if all (most) things stay equal. Even the slowest cars close the gap a bit when technical regulations tend to remain the same. Then after about 2-3 years, things change again and again. The basic "formula" (2.4 liters, 8 cylinders, ~1300 kg) has been in effect since 2006, but every year a new aerodynamic tweak or overhaul is made to all the cars, or a dimensional change to the body of the car is codified into the rules, which means these cars are quite obsolete after a year's usage (even if it isn't crashed).

Give the designers and engineers and surround them with gobs of money and technology, and they will surpass methods to "slow the cars down" in a year or two, until the next big thing is created, or safety fears and/or disaster rears its ugly head.

Also, it is hard to just judge a "flying qualifying lap" against an average speed of the field. Qualifying is about the fastest overall lap (that's why there's three sessions), so if the driver uncorks a perfect lap, it might be slightly misleading. Likewise, the fastest lap is not necessarily indicative of the fastest driver (i.e. the winner).

 

[Ardius]

I thought they added rear bias if KERS failed, since KERS is taking energy from the rear axle so they don't need as much brake power there.

Well I thought because KERS is taking braking heat, it takes away some braking force which requires more brake bias.
But I've just looked up a few articles, and you're right, as it actually takes energy away from the engine, effectively working as second brake.