Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Sim Racing Hardware' started by eKretz, Feb 21, 2013.
Heres me hoping the "next-stage will be equivelent to a 4 Buhler setup.
Haha, I'm not so sure that would be very fun without being able to change the way force feedback delivers its signals. On PC it could be sweet, where you can adjust everything in the ini. As it is with 2 Bühlers I was having quite a time with the wheel at base settings in GT5. It's great around the center but it's tough to turn the wheel past 90°-135° with the extra strength, and with 4 motors I don't think I could do it, especially with rapid movements. Not to mention slippage. It could definitely be done, but the rubber coated plastic piece from the back of the wheel would have to go for sure. Probably need wider belts and pulleys. I kind of prefer to keep the existing form factor, but I guess a new cover could be made from sheet aluminum or something.
Does this create unrealistic FFB?
Did you try rfactor2? IMHO the best FFB by far and really brings the CSW and CSRE to life. (this with even more stronger motors ... excellent)
No, it's actually not super-realistic as it is, IMO. As good as FFB makes the experience, it's still not like really driving a racecar. I think Leo Bodnar had a diatribe about this a while back. The Bühlers definitely still make things better, but to really utilize this, PC is a necessity, IMO. You have to be able to fine tune where the wheel should be stronger and where it should be weaker. For instance, the stock CSW has plenty of power to simulate wheel forces when a car is sitting still, and even enough for a decent percentage of driving circumstances. By swapping in the Bühler motors, the stuff that felt good at stock power levels now feels too strong, but the stuff that felt weak before now feels great. That's why I say it's so important to be able to tweak the feel like you can on the PC front. You need to be able to tweak the weaker stuff back to where it should be. Even if I had to dial everything back to stock power levels though (which I don't, I'm just saying) it would be an improvement if for nothing else than the better motor life.
No not yet, I haven't got RFactor2. Can't really afford it right now, but I will get it eventually. I am really looking forward to Assetto Corsa also!
I should add that at nearer 24v the feeling was pretty good even with GT5. It's just when I turned it up it got a bit overwhelming. With the PC games I was able to tune it to where I liked it way better than the stock motors at any voltage. The new simbin title on steam was very awesome feeling.
BTW, I've tried cleaning the belt and pulleys with dish soap and am still slipping; I'm hesitant to use acetone, I may need to get a new belt. I've done some reading online and it turns out that silicone grease is the devil to get rid of. Anybody know a good way to remove it? I've read that a sure fire method is chloroform or xylene, but these will likely destroy the belt. Rubbing alcohol might or might not do it, but I'm not sure if that will also damage the belt.
Its seems although the circuit board has enough headroom to theoretically allow the possibility to simply add multiple high efficiency motors to increase strength at the rim (to reach the goal of reducing the distance between stock and Bodner strenth), doing so requires a firmware modification from Fanatec in order to keep the correct ballance of FFB effect linear (retain the same feel across multiple platforms) like it comes stock tuned for the dual Fanbuchis setup.
I would say that is correct. I wonder if somebody could figure out how to tweak the firmware? My brother is a computer sci major, maybe I'll see if he can take a crack at it.
That is very true. I have been through 6 different ones and they all acted and measured differently. I took a closer look at that large pulley last night when I had the wheel stripped to pieces again; it seems that it is painted or clear-coated. It feels slick and smooth even though it has the appearance of being bead-blasted. I cleaned everything with dish soap again, acetone, then rubbing alcohol. STILL slipping. This is driving me nuts. While I had it apart I went ahead and removed the grease from the bearings and oiled them, they now spin freely. I guess I will bead blast the pulley myself and see what happens.
I emailed my brother to see if he can help with the firmware tweaking stuff, we'll see what he says. I know they definitely adjust the linearity of response with the firmware, I remember the linearity not being so great when the wheels were new, then there was a new firmware and it improved greatly. It's in the wheelcheck thread and the difference is pretty apparent by looking at the linearity test graphs from wheelcheck. Thomas chimed in on the thread when the first test they did showed poor response at low feedback levels, saying that they didn't use the newest firmware - and indeed, the newer firmwares are very linear.
Seeing as how Thomas is having so many problems with bad motors I would think he might be interested in coming up with a custom firmware update for modified wheels if it was only for one type of solution and enough people who had requested replacement motors were interested in doing simple motor swap themselves. Of course there would need to be an agreement on what type of upgraded motor configuration was most widely acceptable across the board for a cheap, effective solution that everyone who wanted an upgrade option could agree upon. A simple firmware update for said solution could save them money if people were willing to do the work themselves and not ship wheels back. I understand how not evryone who just plunked down $600 for a wheel could accept that it needs modifying straight away, but how much do you risk giving those who do want to the option to but developing a firmware for them.
I see what you did there
Ive been following this thread since you guys started it and to be honest I never considered modding my CSW. After looking over everything here and noticing the drop in FFB after about 15 mins like you guys said, I never really noticed it until it was mentioned here so I took notice, I think I'll look more into swapping out the motors for stronger ones that dont have the drop off. Not something I'm doing next week or anything and I'll pick up another csw base to mod with because I don't want to totally screw up what I have now in case something goes wrong.
Another thing I'm thinking of doing is making my own rim by getting a formula rim and just using the guts in another rim. As you guys know you cant just put another rim on the csw because the ffb won't work due to the way the firmware is setup. I don't know if any of you guys are on iracing but one member up there made his own rim a while back and hes was the first I believe and the only one I've seen so far. Here is the post and pics for those not on iracing.
I would like to do something similar to this. I do like my BMW rim but it is a bit on the heavy side. I figured you could make a lighter GT rim by using this method.
Thank you for sharing this post, MadRR, very interesting.
I need your precious help please
I have to change the qr hub on the base of the csw but I'm not able to extract it from the base because of the black electronic connector that's linked to the wires coming from the base.
How I could solve my problem? thank you in advance and sorry for my english
Well biancazzurro, can't you just unplug it?
RXX, ask Buhler for their recommendation for this application. Their application engineers should be happy to give us their best fit for the circumstances. I tried a linearity test and it's a little low on the bottom end and a little high on the top end. It's decently linear, but it's askew to the ideal a bit. Here's a linearity test at 40V:
It looks better at 24V of course.
I just switched pulleys and belts (still have my Elite here) and it's STILL slipping. The only thing I can figure is the angle change on the belt surface around the smaller pulleys is giving a wedge action and gripping the belt, because the small pulleys aren't slipping at all.
I tried a quick wheelcheck @40VDC for the heck of it, even with the slippage it looks sweet. Here's stock for comparison again:
And at 40V:
How could I unplug that?
Which do you guys think would be better for the longevitiy of my new CSR Elite motors (in a general sense)?
1) More tension on the belt and lower FFB in the CSR E settings.
2) Less tension on the belt and higher FFB in the CSR E settings.
3) Does it not really matter as they have the same affect.
Just trying to think of another way to have the FFB I want but not affect motor longevity.
Hey Racer, please edit your original post rather than double posting.
Thanks for the advice, I'll try it on low FFB for a while to break the motor in.
biancazzurro, unplug the other end maybe?
RXX, I am looking into some other firmwares now out of curiosity.
Jerome I would follow RXX's advice.
Silicone products in general are brilliant when they are where you want them, and an absolute nightmare when they are not where you want them. For what it's worth, you may be able to source a cheap spray that a glazier would use. However, I checked the can that I have and it does not list the active ingredient(s). Really good stuff though. I would think that alcohol would dry the belt out, whereas this stuff seems pretty good on the skin in comparison.
For what it's worth, the product is GHS Supersolve. Forgive me if this info is not relevant or transferable to your specific situation.
By all means, feel free to make recommendations. I will try it if I can find it. I am very surprised that after changing the belt and even the pulley it is still slipping. I was very careful this time not to touch the belt or pulley grooves, I even went so far as to wear urethane gloves to be safe. Still slipping. As I surmised in my earlier post, it has to be the smaller pulley radius is distorting the belt's v-shape and creating a pinching/wedging effect on the smaller pulley grooves, because the small motor drive pulleys are not slipping at all. I think if it was all to do with silicone then they would slip too, and after the belt and large pulley were changed, the problem should have gone away. I am surprised, but as I said, by my research, the belt really doesn't have the capacity for so much power. At 40VDC, I was pulling over 13A, so over 520W there. At 24V, it was barely slipping, but the Buhler motors are stronger than OE motors. With the OE motors it wouldn't be slipping at all.
Maybe instead of spending too much time on trying to clean the belt, you would be better to re-install the original motor assembly and if it does not slip anymore you would know it as nothing to do with the belt being clean or not.
I know it won't slip with the original motors, because it is just barely doing so with the Buhlers at 24V. They are much stronger than the original motors even at 24V.
Yeah, I don't know what to think other than I'm overpowering the belt/pulley grip capacity. I don't know how you're not getting slip if you're running a stronger setup than I am RXX. Curse of the Buchi burn-outs?
Edit: here's an MSDS on SuperSolve...looks like it's pretty much kerosene.
I got the same when i experimented with belt tension on my CSR Elite. Either no slip, or one of the two smaller pulleys slipped depending on direction. The big pulley never slipped.