Fanatec CSW/CSR Elite Modders Thread *UPDATE February 2014*

Discussion in 'Sim Racing Hardware' started by eKretz, Feb 21, 2013.

  1. eKretz

    eKretz

    Messages:
    1,600
    Location:
    United States
    I re-did the OE heat sink on the chips with AS5 while I was in there. When I take it for a drive I'm going to have a temp probe on the motor case so I can watch the temp. I am using the stock 24V 5A supply to run the fans wide open separate from the circuit board when I use the wheel just for some little bit of cooling. Oh, and the free rotation of the steering wheel feels about identical to the Fanas. The rotation against resistance (at the stops) feels super smooth and strong. How many volts have you pushed to so far RacerXX? I have to say that I lost another stock FFB motor right before I started changing out the motors too. So those were the V2 "new batch" motors that are supposed to be better. I am positive that they were new batch motors too because they had the reversed wire polarity compared to my Elite.
     
  2. K_Soze

    K_Soze

    Messages:
    558
    Location:
    Canada
    Are Buhlers a lot more expensive than the mabushis ?

    When I was racing RC cars, engine cost was about 100$...
     
  3. RacerXX

    RacerXX

    Messages:
    577
    Location:
    United States
    delete
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  4. lemansfanatic

    lemansfanatic

    Messages:
    1,326
    Location:
    United States
    I think if Fanatec gets their issues with motors sorted out the CSW could be the wheel of our generation, that will provide sim racers with many years of upgrading potential and crosses platforms. For that reason I can't think of another wheel that should be a better test-bed for modders to upgrade motors. I am very excited to see what the end retail product could be for enterprising modders who have the know-how to put together a packet of upgrades with instructions that make it easy for anyone with a CSW to upgrade. Thats why I am following this thread so closesly, because the CSW is a great wheel at a decent price, but is primed for modification!
     
  5. eKretz

    eKretz

    Messages:
    1,600
    Location:
    United States
    K Sose, the motors are a little under $120 each in low quantity brand new, this is covered earlier in the thread. If bought in bulk, the price could be lowered. I got mine surplus for $17 each.

    I just threw a quick fish scale on my wheel with 2 voltages.

    Buhler motors @24VDC it pulled 14.5 pounds@~5.38"R. or 6.5lb./ft. (8.8Nm).

    Buhler motors @30VDC it pulled 18.25 pounds@~5.38"R. or 8.2lb./ft. (11.1Nm).

    Stock motors @24VDC was 8.5 pounds@~5.38"R. or 3.8lbs./ft. (5.2Nm)

    Getting ready to take a spin now.

    P.S. here's wheelcheck @36VDC: (click for vid)

    [​IMG]

    OK, just got done with a bit of testing. Did some GT5 and some F1 2012. What a difference! Man, it feels like a whole new wheel! I ran it for most of the time at only 24V, but tried it for a couple minutes on 30V. This sucker is really strong. I am getting a bit of belt slippage now though, I can feel it go a little soft under sudden movement high effort steering and I noted some belt position change. I am pretty happy with the strength increase. I was only running GT5 at 7 in-game FFB and all base wheel settings. Had no trouble with oscillations, but I didn't drive the X2010 this time. Definitely going to need to get the cooling up and running though, it makes me nervous running without it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2013
  6. RacerXX

    RacerXX

    Messages:
    577
    Location:
    United States
    delete
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  7. K_Soze

    K_Soze

    Messages:
    558
    Location:
    Canada
    Oups, sorry, I miss the post where the price was mentioned. I like the idea to change the motors without doing electronic modifications (keeping the pcb) so switching to Buhlers seems a easy way to improve the wheel. But I will not do it until I find a nice way to drive the small belt with a pulley that not directly pulls the motor shaft (even if the motor is ball bearing mounted).
     
  8. eKretz

    eKretz

    Messages:
    1,600
    Location:
    United States
    Yeah, RXX, the start-up cal routine doesn't look much different than stock since it limits voltage on start-up. That bit at the end where it looks like it is re-centering is just where it bounced off the stop.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  9. RacerXX

    RacerXX

    Messages:
    577
    Location:
    United States
    delete
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  10. eKretz

    eKretz

    Messages:
    1,600
    Location:
    United States
    Just ran a quick stop-test to check wattage. At 24V it's about 200W, at 36V just under 400W. However now I'm defo getting slippage with a cold belt. It's not slipping at the motor end, it's spinning the belt on the large pulley, interestingly. This is with more belt tension than stock too. Guess I'll tighten it a bit more. May have to go to a 4-rib belt.

    I just checked the data-sheet for the motors, they are rated for ~5 pounds side-load, I might switch them to a float drive too, just to try to minimize drag every bit.
     
  11. RacerXX

    RacerXX

    Messages:
    577
    Location:
    United States
    delete
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  12. eKretz

    eKretz

    Messages:
    1,600
    Location:
    United States
    Boy, I was just reviewing some of the calculations on the belt drive setup. They were really pushing it by running a J section belt with only 2 ribs. They have pretty much no transmission capacity at stall. The ratings start at 200 RPM in the tables and the rated capability is only 20W per rib at that RPM on a 20mm pulley. I will definitely be making the switch to a 4-rib pulley. I calculated my required ribs with 30W/rib power transmission and it would recommend a 15-rib! belt! It seems that at my current power level I should be running a K or even L-section belt according to the specs. I will be looking into better tensioning for the belt also. Hopefully I can overcome this slippage via 4-ribs and better tension. If not maybe I'll be making some custom 6-rib pulleys or maybe a synch drive? Though I'd hate to go that route. (Last resort).

    Here's a capacity chart:

    [​IMG]

    Editing to add response to your post:

    I agree some slip is OK, but I can really feel it, and that is not acceptable.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  13. RacerXX

    RacerXX

    Messages:
    577
    Location:
    United States
    delete
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  14. eKretz

    eKretz

    Messages:
    1,600
    Location:
    United States
    Yeah, like I said, I'm not worried about slip as long as I can't feel it. When the force builds up so well then drops or softens though, that's very bad, mmkay? (SNL reference).

    I do think it'll be okay with either a little more tension, more ribs, or both though. How many watts have you run yours at so far?
     
  15. RacerXX

    RacerXX

    Messages:
    577
    Location:
    United States
    delete
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  16. lemansfanatic

    lemansfanatic

    Messages:
    1,326
    Location:
    United States
    Now that you have taken appart the wheels and really put some serious wattage through the circuit boards, have you noticed any problem areas with glitching or spiking? in other words, is the cheap OEM motors Fanatec is using the only parts you see that would need upgrading or are there any capacitors that would need adding to handle more powerful motors? Or is it that these Buhlers run more efficiently and dont put as much strain on the circuits?
     
  17. RacerXX

    RacerXX

    Messages:
    577
    Location:
    United States
    delete
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  18. vittorio

    vittorio

    Messages:
    37
    I am following very interested your work on modding the CSRE/CSW with the stronger Buhler motors. I wonder is the linearity of the CSRE/CSW still that good with the Buhler motors like shown in this benchmark?

    Test 2.1: Linearity benchmark @ http://f-wheel.com/reviews/csr-elite-wheel-benchmarked

    Or is the linearity then comparable to the T500RS?
     
  19. eKretz

    eKretz

    Messages:
    1,600
    Location:
    United States
    Technically correct, but only because of the horse; there is still power applied in terms of torque, right? And yes, my slippage is occurring on the large pulley, which has me scratching my head. At stall against the stop, the motors are actually able to continually spin the belt at ~11-12A draw. I am going to have to check groove geometry and alignment.

    I am in agreement on the trouble zones on the circuit board, my temps are up pretty good in the bridge/chip area. I have put 36V and ~13A max through for a short time, but with no extra cooling yet I won't test it for long periods.

    Vittorio I will check that out soon; right now I'm chasing slippage gremlins. I'll get back to you or post after I do that test.
     
  20. RacerXX

    RacerXX

    Messages:
    577
    Location:
    United States
    delete
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  21. eKretz

    eKretz

    Messages:
    1,600
    Location:
    United States
    You got me there, I should have said, there is no power or force transmitted, but there is still power/force being applied. I think we're saying the same thing, just at cross-purposes. I can be absent-minded at times, just to warn you. The constant painkillers for my back will do that.

    I have not blasted the pulleys yet, was just trying it out as is. I just increased the tension to the point of increasing free-wheeling torque and it is still able to slip the belt on the large pulley continuously. I wonder if I didn't get something on the belt? I'd still expect slippage on the small pulley first. Guess it's time to tear it apart again.
     
  22. eKretz

    eKretz

    Messages:
    1,600
    Location:
    United States
    Here're a couple vids of a trial of recovering my damaged FFB motor with RXX's water method. It didn't work for this motor, and you can totally see the effect of the damage by the movement of the motor. The motors are hanging in the glass of water suspended by only their wires, so there is very little friction restraining rotation/movement. I used the minimum voltage necessary to keep the motors constantly spinning at the lowest possible speed.

    First, the better of the two, @0.5VDC:

    [​IMG]

    You can see there is very little movement here.

    And the damaged one, which needed 1.0VDC to keep spinning due to the damage:

    [​IMG]

    On this one, the movement is easily visible as the motor accelerates and decelerates due to the commutator damage.
     
  23. vittorio

    vittorio

    Messages:
    37
    That's great thx. Too much slippage could influence the linearity test anyway.
     
  24. Jump_Ace

    Jump_Ace Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    8,417
    Location:
    United States
    Can one of you mod pros recommend a replacement motor that may last longer, just as powerful/more powerful that is the same size so I can easily swap motors?

    Would this one work?

    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GNRIM4?tag=shimano.jbaerga-20

    It's still 12V, but just a little longer. I could buy a bunch of the RS555PH motors (since they are about $3 ea.) but I'd rather not have to disassemble my CSRE every few months.


    Jerome
     
  25. RacerXX

    RacerXX

    Messages:
    577
    Location:
    United States
    delete
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  26. Cote Dazur

    Cote Dazur

    Messages:
    3,667
    Location:
    Canada
    RacerXX, 100$ to 400$, for a better wheel, with no hassles /worries, as in just replacing the original motors by better ones, although more expensive, sounds good to me.
    Since the motors will be better, stronger, it would work as a drop in, no real need for additional cooling, although it would still be a good thing.
    What would this motors be?

    PS, of course, 100 would be much nicer than 400.:sly:
     
  27. RacerXX

    RacerXX

    Messages:
    577
    Location:
    United States
    delete
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  28. Cote Dazur

    Cote Dazur

    Messages:
    3,667
    Location:
    Canada
    Thank you, it will be great to have alternatives :tup:


    In my case, the force of the FFB is more than enough for my taste,:) how long is more what I am after. Of course I have no doubt many others are after both.:sly:
     
  29. Jet Badger

    Jet Badger

    Messages:
    3,468
    Location:
    Lithuania
    Why not make your own FFB wheel? I had an idea about making one out of actual car parts. Engine cam belt pulleys, Actual rack&pinion cut to lenght(they can be really compact) for lock (maybe some wheels don't even use a physical lock and just rely on FFB locks?), a big arse motor and a donor FFB wheel PCB plus an additional amp like the ones HAPP people use. This could be a really interesting project, though unfortunately impossible with my resources.
     
  30. eKretz

    eKretz

    Messages:
    1,600
    Location:
    United States
    Cote you will probably not get away from the need for additional cooling. The motors will still get hot when putting out max torque at near stall speeds. The only way to get away from needing extra cooling is to use a motor that is so strong that you wouldn't even be making it work hardly during use, and that would be costly. I am interestd to see some of the motors that RXX comes up with, the best ones will probably require some interesting mods to fit.

    My wheel is back in pieces again, I was unable to find any glaring issues, but I used a silicone grease on my wheel shaft so the quick-release wouldn't scratch up the aluminum, I may have touched it while maneuvering the housing while reinstalling the motors and belt. That stuff is slippery as heck and could be the problem. I'm going to wash the belt and pulleys to check it out.