Fantasy or Reality? Which kind of track do you prefer?

[TayeezSA]

So I had a think the other day.

That think was mainly influenced by the GT6 Suggestions section and just my own thoughts on that matter. Some of the most suggested tracks in the Suggestions section are Previous Fantasy tracks or just locations which could be fantasy track material. All among real tracks.

Simply put it's this: Which is more desired? Which is more appreciated? If not both. Fantasy or Reality tracks. When I speak of Fantasy, I mean tracks like El Capitan, Red Rock Valley or Seattle Circuit. Reality being Silverstone or Kyalami.


This Reddit AMA question also comes to mind with this discussion:

By TrueParadox

Hello, Mr. Yamauchi. First of all, let me tell you I love Gran Turismo since I was about 10, when I got GT2. I have all the GT games, and my question is very simple: Why is it that many tracks, like Midfield Raceway, Seattle, Red Rock Valley, Smokey Mountain, Thaiti Maze, Grand Canyon, El Capitan, etc are removed from GT6?

They are all original tracks, and they're pretty good. I also feel like there is a lack of rally tracks, when you had such amazing tracks in previous games. And what about Pikes Peak? Thank you, and I hope I can finally forget this doubt that clouds me since GT5. Thank you.

Then Kaz answered

I'd like to have a lot of those tracks back in the game as well, but I guess you can say that even our production teams ride certain trends when they're working. One of those is that we started out with all fantasy tracks when we first created Gran Turismo. But once the teams started researching methods of creating real tracks, that became the focus of their work, and less work was done on those fantasy tracks.

Though I think real, existing tracks are important, I also think that fully designed tracks are also very interesting and have their own place so I think that's something to look for in GT7.

So fantasy tracks have had their place in the GT series for a while now, with GT1 starting out with predominantly Fantasy Tracks. Ideally the team has researched methods of creating real tracks, which is great and all but I had the idea that since the team is has the new-found knowledge, maybe it can even lead to better Fantasy tracks... Like sprint tracks, rally and others

There's just this charm and creativity that fantasy tracks give off as opposed to real tracks. It's a really great simulacra, particularly here in GT. It gives the game a better sense of identity with them. Anyone can put Silverstone in a game but then it just becomes a battle of who represented it better. It's not to say that real tracks are bad or anything, just the deviation from them is nice too. Real tracks are great for when you want the real deal or just want to feel the real experience.

There's also this to consider but mind you this is pure speculation from my perspective. I assume it would be easier to design fantasy tracks for GT7. It's due to the fact that it can be purely use of creative license or just inspiration from a real world location. As such, not everything has to be to the tee and there's less hassle with licenses and FIA approval jazz.

Player Feedback can even have a role in the creation of fantasy tracks. Look at Driveclub for example with their recent Japan Track DLC which was executed BEAUTIFULLY. It was Evos own design and reaction to Player Feedback that created such a great track location.

I think I'll stop blabbering on so let me conclude with this:

So what do you guys have to say about the matter? Vote on the poll too if you so desire.

 

[Pseudopod]

I like both. I think GT6 had a good balance, even though there are a few real world tracks that could well have been included.

 

[JKgo]

....It depends, right? I mean, there are a few boring real life tracks out there *cough modern Tilke cough* and there are less than ideal fantasy tracks in GT series too.

If they are interesting to putter around in my chosen ride, then I really couldn't give a toss whether it's a fantasy track or not.

 

[Johnnypenso]

In racing simulations, I don't mind a fantasy track here and there so long as it's challenging and fun to drive and close to realistic. At the same time I'm not a big fan of modern F1 type tracks either and I wish there were more recreations of older tracks from the 60's and 70's from before modern safety standards were implemented and tracks more naturally followed the landscape.

 

[Pseudopod]

Agreed. In a video game, there is no real reason to go out of your way to build "safe" tracks. I guess cape ring is an example of that .

 

[TayeezSA]

....It depends, right? I mean, there are a few boring real life tracks out there *cough modern Tilke cough* and there are less than ideal fantasy tracks in GT series too.

If they are interesting to putter around in my chosen ride, then I really couldn't give a toss whether it's a fantasy track or not.

So you just wanna have fun on the track? No?

In racing simulations, I don't mind a fantasy track here and there so long as it's challenging and fun to drive and close to realistic. At the same time I'm not a big fan of modern F1 type tracks either and I wish there were more recreations of older tracks from the 60's and 70's from before modern safety standards were implemented and tracks more naturally followed the landscape.

You're speaking my language right there Like the older Fuji Speedways and right now there's Donnybrook raceway in Zimbabwe.

Agreed. In a video game, there is no real reason to go out of your way to build "safe" tracks. I guess cape ring is an example of that .

True that Cape Ring is an entertaining drive I tell you.

How do you chaps feel about mountain roads but Driveclub style? Especially DC's representation of Japan which is simply sublime. It really feels like a Japanese mountain drive, which PD can create but I don't know why they aren't utilizing their backyard however that's a thread for another day.

Another thing, The Course Maker can pretty much cover the Fantasy Track genre but do you guys think that nothing beats an actual handmade/developed course as opposed to a generation? For me, the thing is with handmade/developed courses, there's a personal touch and charm that you can't get from a Generated course, even with regards to scenery.

 

[JKgo]

@TayeezSA yeah for fun, sure. But I think I need to be little more clearer here - when I say boring, I mean in not the layout of a track, but the atmosphere of one. For example: there seems to be a fair amount of follwing for High Speed Ring. That track puts me to sleep. Sure, it has bridges, tunnels and what not, but boy, IT'S SO STERILE. On the other hand, I enjoy Autumn Ring, 'cuz hey look, birds!! Same thing for Cape Ring: it's too sterile and ultimately forgettable. And little too long, for what it is.

...Moral of the story: don't care 'bout dangers, don't care about layout - just let it have a ton of character, and I'm sold. Easy.

 

[Pseudopod]

Good point. Character is important. Some originals could have used some freshening up.

 

[TayeezSA]

@TayeezSA yeah for fun, sure. But I think I need to be little more clearer here - when I say boring, I mean in not the layout of a track, but the atmosphere of one. For example: there seems to be a fair amount of follwing for High Speed Ring. That track puts me to sleep. Sure, it has bridges, tunnels and what not, but boy, IT'S SO STERILE. On the other hand, I enjoy Autumn Ring, 'cuz hey look, birds!! Same thing for Cape Ring: it's too sterile and ultimately forgettable. And little too long, for what it is.

...Moral of the story: don't care 'bout dangers, don't care about layout - just let it have a ton of character, and I'm sold. Easy.

So essentially the tracks must feel alive, not stale in any sense. Whether it be crowds cheering plus being out and about, Flora swaying about in the wind, dust rising, heat rising, cicadas crying, the whole shabam really?

I agree with that very much actually. Great point. If a track feels alive, it adds so much more to the experience. I guess one issue with Real tracks is that there's set areas where the crowds must sit, Safety regulations blah blah blah.... you won't really find them up and about like a fantasy track. Case in point, Costa Di Amalfi from GT4 and even the Grand Canyon track which were heaps of fun.

Sounds also play an important role here too. Environment sounds at that. What would you hear on a racetrack or race location on a fantasy track besides cars moving about?

 

[JKgo]

@TayeezSA ....Guns, women, and Rock n' Roll. Not necessarily in that order.

 

[sparkytooth]

I leave it up to PD, any track is pretty much fair game as long as it's good.

 

[Northstar]

I don't mind fantasy tracks as long as they feel like a track that could actually exist in the real world (Apricot Hill and Mid-Field are good examples).

 

[Zuku]

Haven't been on here in a minute give me another SSR11 FRAMIT!

Now I don't give a sh** if I hurt feelings Cape Ring is by far the worst track ever to race on it has no soul. Oh add either SSR7 or SSRX whichever had what amounted to a long highway as a track.

I mean come on I love SSR11 and SSR5 for their scenery that's why I've been screaming for SSR11 to return to this day.

 

[Scuderia Paul]

I voted for 'There should be a balance between Fantasy and Reality'. Over the years PD had come up with some fabulous original circuits such as Sierra, Seattle, El Capitan, SSR11 New York and to name a few. These circuits show that including PD originals in GT7 would be more than worth it.

As for real circuits? We have some of the best there are but we are still missing far too many of the world's iconic racetracks. We have had 6 fully fledged GT games now but we are yet to see Sebring International Raceway, Imola, Road America or Interlagos included.
Then you have slightly less prestigious locations such as Bahrain International Circuit, Bugatti Circuit and Valencia which was exclusive to GT PSP.

I enjoy the majority of PD originals and look forward to see what they create for GT7 but they need to put more focus on catching up on real circuits.

 

[TayeezSA]

No love for Cape Ring Zuku? Not even with a little bit of a touch-up for that extra soul?

@Scuderia Paul I guess Isle of Man is a possible start. If we get 50/50 for the tracks I think that should please everyone.

Slightly off topic: I think PD should also think more outside of the box for Fantasy tracks, not just circuits but maybe also things along the lines of Driving Park like in GT4, let's say a parkade made for autocross layouts. What astounds me the most though is that PD doesn't really use what's in their backyard, there could be plenty of sprint tracks from the beautiful Japanese mountain roads but PD just isn't using them. Sprints is another thing they could do for Fantasy tracks. For real tracks I guess Goodwood and possibly Pikes Peak is a start.

 

[Zuku]

No love for Cape Ring Zuku? Not even with a little bit of a touch-up for that extra soul?

@Scuderia Paul I guess Isle of Man is a possible start. If we get 50/50 for the tracks I think that should please everyone.

Slightly off topic: I think PD should also think more outside of the box for Fantasy tracks, not just circuits but maybe also things along the lines of Driving Park like in GT4, let's say a parkade made for autocross layouts. What astounds me the most though is that PD doesn't really use what's in their backyard, there could be plenty of sprint tracks from the beautiful Japanese mountain roads but PD just isn't using them. Sprints is another thing they could do for Fantasy tracks. For real tracks I guess Goodwood and possibly Pikes Peak is a start.

No not even a little I felt like I was racing in the realm of uncertainty. It's been my most hated course for the longest now before it I only had courses I didn't like all that much etc. Example least favorite course in GT4 was think Infineon or now the Sonoma Raceway, but never hated.

 

[sparkytooth]

I actually like Cape Ring's layout.

 

[Pseudopod]

The actual layout is fun enough, but the track is a bit too sterile, and the environments are a bit dull.

 

[Zuku]

The actual layout is fun enough, but the track is a bit too sterile, and the environments are a bit dull.

Exactly That's pretty much my point how I feel about Willow Springs it's kinda dead the environment is cool, and the layout is nice, but it's completely dead feeling to it.

As it currently stands GT needs to take some notes from Grid: AS right now they've really shown me what it can mean to make a track feel "alive" even if it's not real.

 

[TayeezSA]

Exactly That's pretty much my point how I feel about Willow Springs it's kinda dead the environment is cool, and the layout is nice, but it's completely dead feeling to it.

As it currently stands GT needs to take some notes from Grid: AS right now they've really shown me what it can mean to make a track feel "alive" even if it's not real.

Let me add something to the discussion as well since I'm the OP. Fantasy or Reality? Plus, how can we have more 'life' to the tracks? Concerns of safety and all that jazz. Thanks @Zuku for inspiring and mentioning that

So how does Grid AS make the tracks feel alive in your eyes? I haven't played it so I wouldn't know

I can talk for Driveclub though. With the crowds on, the tracks are at their liveliest. The flora plus even insects and the wind paired with the crowds make for an interesting experience. Not just when you're parked but even when you drive past. Turn off the crowds and the tracks still have life to them.

Funny, I went for a spin in GT4 earlier this week on El Capitan and I must say, the track did feel alive!

Imagine this for fantasy tracks since the concern of safety isn't so high: Fantasy track in Shinjuku, huge balloons and all floating about on the track, some confetti and just the crowds having a good time. Wouldn't that make for a lively track?

Sounds have and important role too here, not just visuals.

 

[JR98]

I don't really have a preference.

 

[Zuku]

Let me add something to the discussion as well since I'm the OP. Fantasy or Reality? Plus, how can we have more 'life' to the tracks? Concerns of safety and all that jazz. Thanks @Zuku for inspiring and mentioning that

So how does Grid AS make the tracks feel alive in your eyes? I haven't played it so I wouldn't know

I can talk for Driveclub though. With the crowds on, the tracks are at their liveliest. The flora plus even insects and the wind paired with the crowds make for an interesting experience. Not just when you're parked but even when you drive past. Turn off the crowds and the tracks still have life to them.

Funny, I went for a spin in GT4 earlier this week on El Capitan and I must say, the track did feel alive!

Imagine this for fantasy tracks since the concern of safety isn't so high: Fantasy track in Shinjuku, huge balloons and all floating about on the track, some confetti and just the crowds having a good time. Wouldn't that make for a lively track?

Sounds have and important role too here, not just visuals.

I can't even describe it without telling you to take a look at the videos and see for yourself.

Before I bought the game think it was @Johnnypenso who said himself they actually programmed flies into the game etc. You wouldn't think something like that would blow your mind etc, but it was kinda of crazy.

Simply put the crowds are actually more into the race their cheering, and releasing ballons etc. Helicopter flying around etc.



Be mindful that this is a game also on PS3/360 as well as PC vs a game on Xbox One

Don't get it twisted GT had some nice tracks, but in my mind Codemasters has been taking me to the next level. I've owned three of their games now, and each one has blown me away in certain departments.

It literally will take something ground breaking for Gran Turismo 7 to really get me to move if you know what I mean.

 

[TayeezSA]

Be mindful that this is a game also on PS3/360 as well as PC vs a game on Xbox One

Don't get it twisted GT had some nice tracks, but in my mind Codemasters has been taking me to the next level. I've owned three of their games now, and each one has blown me away in certain departments.

It literally will take something ground breaking for Gran Turismo 7 to really get me to move if you know what I mean.

I can easily see the difference between Forza and GAS however I won't comment too much because I haven't played those games enough to have my own verdict. Plus I don't have them

I can speak for DiRT 3 though. One thing that really gobsmacked me was Kenya. You can actually see the gusts of wind on the road lift up the dust as well as hear the insects and grass swaying. That attention to detail is very nice might I add plus it feels alive.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Fantasy tracks are great if the track layout is good and it doesn't feel too arcade.

I think Grindelwald in GT2 is a great example. It has an enjoyable layout for me, and it reminds me of old grand prix circuits - fast, flowing, picket fences and public roads.

 

[JR98]

Fantasy tracks are great if the track layout is good and it doesn't feel too arcade.

I think Grindelwald in GT2 is a great example. It has an enjoyable layout for me, and it reminds me of old grand prix circuits - fast, flowing, picket fences and public roads.

Exactly. My favourite fantasy tracks are those that are possble in real life, like Midfield, Trial Mountain, Deep Forest, Grindelwald etc.

 

[Zuku]

I can easily see the difference between Forza and GAS however I won't comment too much because I haven't played those games enough to have my own verdict. Plus I don't have them

I can speak for DiRT 3 though. One thing that really gobsmacked me was Kenya. You can actually see the gusts of wind on the road lift up the dust as well as hear the insects and grass swaying. That attention to detail is very nice might I add plus it feels alive.

It's the same way in GAS(Grid) the only thing that Codemasters kinda fails on is having "regular cars" involved that's where GT excels at, and that is by no means anything against Codemasters at all. It's just if they had that GT probably wouldn't be around much.

In fact me personally if Codemasters ever just combined the 3 into 1, and called it a day they'd run a lot of people off instantly.

To your original point I can't say much for Forza either, but for what it's worth Forza and GT might have more attention to detail with the car itself/interiors, but at least for DiRT 3 and GRID sake they're environments made a heck of a lot of difference it was almost like experiencing GT4 again for the first time. I still never forget when coming around the corner of Grand Canyon and the Costa de Alamifa(think that's how it was spelled). Having the A.I run out of the way from taking pictures lol.

 

[Pseudopod]

I'm actually really fond of circuits that also use public roads either entirely or partially. City courses, Sarthe, etc. I think they're great. I would love for some more street tracks in GT7, for example fantasy tracks based on real locations. The fantasy part would be that the these areas aren't used for actual racing events in real life, but the roads and environments actually do exist.

-edit-

I wonder if it would be too much work to actually laser scan public roads. I mean I imagine you have to drive pretty slowly. It could be doable in some roads I guess, at least if you could get some goodwill from the local government.

 

[TayeezSA]

I'm actually really fond of circuits that also use public roads either entirely or partially. City courses, Sarthe, etc. I think they're great. I would love for some more street tracks in GT7, for example fantasy tracks based on real locations. The fantasy part would be that the these areas aren't used for actual racing events in real life, but the roads and environments actually do exist.

-edit-

I wonder if it would be too much work to actually laser scan public roads. I mean I imagine you have to drive pretty slowly. It could be doable in some roads I guess, at least if you could get some goodwill from the local government.

That's very feasible I rate. I suppose with laser scanning roads it wouldn't be too much work to do in order to get an idea of how the roads layout and meander but I think the real challenge would be to figure out where and how the undulations on the roads are. Mostly due to the fact that public roads aren't silky smooth like racetracks. In that way, that's how you'd get maybe a perfect fantasy track.

So far the votes have leaned more to balance of tracks, 50/50 if you will. Thanks for participating so far everybody

Is GRID AS solely racetracks or is it a mix? I remember in the first GRID it had a nice touge road, GRID 2 apparently had but I don't have GRID 2

 

[JR98]

That's very feasible I rate. I suppose with laser scanning roads it wouldn't be too much work to do in order to get an idea of how the roads layout and meander but I think the real challenge would be to figure out where and how the undulations on the roads are. Mostly due to the fact that public roads aren't silky smooth like racetracks. In that way, that's how you'd get maybe a perfect fantasy track.

So far the votes have leaned more to balance of tracks, 50/50 if you will. Thanks for participating so far everybody

Is GRID AS solely racetracks or is it a mix? I remember in the first GRID it had a nice touge road, GRID 2 apparently had but I don't have GRID 2

I don't know about GAS, I think it's mainly real tracks. G2 had mostly street circuits with 1 or 2 race tracks (I know Indianapolis was definitely in). GRID had a mix of everything.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That's very feasible I rate. I suppose with laser scanning roads it wouldn't be too much work to do in order to get an idea of how the roads layout and meander but I think the real challenge would be to figure out where and how the undulations on the roads are. Mostly due to the fact that public roads aren't silky smooth like racetracks. In that way, that's how you'd get maybe a perfect fantasy track.

So far the votes have leaned more to balance of tracks, 50/50 if you will. Thanks for participating so far everybody

Is GRID AS solely racetracks or is it a mix? I remember in the first GRID it had a nice touge road, GRID 2 apparently had but I don't have GRID 2

At launch, all the racing circuits but one were real, all the street circuits were fantasy, which was about half the tracks IIRC. The fantasy track was very well done too, could easily have passed for a real facility if you didn't know better. The also included the absolutely stellar Algarve Circuit from Portugal, which should be a must have in all sim racing games. Excellent track.