Ferrari 599 GTO: Road Going 599 XX

[McLaren]

In either of these paintjobs thanks.

That's awesome. 👍

Ferrari's site's not working for me. What's up?

Try this?
http://www.ferrari.com/English/GT_S...GB&market=&swf=configurator#/configure/599gto

 

[Jim Prower]

Um...I can't even get "Ferrari.com" to work. Something's broken between here and Italy.

 

[SagarisGTB]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, the 288 GTO never raced either. And people seem to have no problem accepting it.


M

Both the 250 GTO and 288 GTO were built for homologation purposes, the 250 for sports cars and the 288 so Ferrari could go circuit racing in Group B. Circumstances changed and circuit racing in Group B never got off the ground, but the idea was there.

It seems this 599 GTO is just a name though. A bit pathetic for Ferrari to do this.

 

[harrytuttle]

Problem is the 599XX itself isn't legal in any racing series (other than the one-make series Ferrari has created for it) due to the active aerodynamics and trick traction control system.

It's actually quite removed from the 599XX. The active aerodynamics you mention aren't on the GTO (nor are most of the vanes and winglets that really added quite a lot to the aerodynamic performance). A quick look at the 599XX reveals how different the body is. On top of that, the interior isn't the same, either. The engine (down a good 40HP), the suspension (nowhere near as harsh), and the transmission (not quite the same, you can be sure) all point to a car that just isn't the same as the 599XX. It's more intense, more focused than the 599GTB, but to say it's a road version of the 599XX is to be simply uninformed.

 

[TheCracker]

Problem is the 599XX itself isn't legal in any racing series (other than the one-make series Ferrari has created for it) due to the active aerodynamics and trick traction control system.

So the 599 GTO is a street legal version of a race car that has no real pedigree.

Maybe Ferrari will build a FIA legal version. It had better win the hell outta some races if it wants to live up to it's legendary name.

The 599XX doesn't even have a one-make race series, just a series of Ferrari run track-days.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

The car itself is cool, but the amount of color options is rather disappointing.

 

[Joey D]

Um...I can't even get "Ferrari.com" to work. Something's broken between here and Italy.

It might be your browser, IE8 doesn't like the site for some reason.

 

[///M-Spec]

Both the 250 GTO and 288 GTO were built for homologation purposes, the 250 for sports cars and the 288 so Ferrari could go circuit racing in Group B. Circumstances changed and circuit racing in Group B never got off the ground, but the idea was there.

I know. My point was to draw attention to the fact that the original 250 GTO had real racing history, where as the 288 GTO didn't. It doesn't matter if they homologated the car or not.

If the standard of authenticity is based on racing history and pedigree, then the the 288 doesn't pass the test any better than the 599.

If the standard of authenticity is based on purpose of intent --a road going version of a car designed for racing, then the argument is clouded due to the fact that the 599 XX doesn't qualify as a true racing car.

It's actually quite removed from the 599XX. The active aerodynamics you mention aren't on the GTO (nor are most of the vanes and winglets that really added quite a lot to the aerodynamic performance). A quick look at the 599XX reveals how different the body is. On top of that, the interior isn't the same, either. The engine (down a good 40HP), the suspension (nowhere near as harsh), and the transmission (not quite the same, you can be sure) all point to a car that just isn't the same as the 599XX. It's more intense, more focused than the 599GTB, but to say it's a road version of the 599XX is to be simply uninformed.

There are lots of homologation cars that don't run the same aero components or spring rates or exact powertrain as the race car. A 911 GT3 RS for example. An E30 M3 is another.

But putting aside the technical and semantics issue of how close the GTO is related to the XX for the moment...

..what does this have to do with my comment that you were responding to?

The 599XX doesn't even have a one-make race series, just a series of Ferrari run track-days.

It's my understanding the events are time trials rather than w2w. Whether or not time trials is real racing is a debate I ain't touching


M

 

[Clark]

I know. My point was to draw attention to the fact that the original 250 GTO had real racing history, where as the 288 GTO didn't. It doesn't matter if they homologated the car or not.

If the standard of authenticity is based on racing history and pedigree, then the the 288 doesn't pass the test any better than the 599.

The point is it isn't called the 599 GTR or something, the 288 was still true to the designation as it was built solely for homologation. Whether it raced or not is irrelevant.

Don't get me wrong, I love the 599 and I think it's the best and truest Ferrari so far this century, but it doesn't deserve the GTO moniker, even if a race car (GT1 probably) is built, as the purpose of the car isn't the same,

Anther thing, I hate the roof on this car, bare carbon fibre only looks good on wings etc., bare CF panels are just vulgar. I'm not even sure if the roof is even CF, if it isn't it still doesn't look very good, thankfully it's not like that on all variations.

 

[Rue]

Okay, sod the name, the crassness and overcomplicated stying I think I have a new favourite car. I had gone right off Ferrari recently but this thing is a monster.

EDIT: Okay, that has to be the fastest I have ever fallen out of love. Looking at it and thinking about it more I hate the crassness, overcomplicated styling and the name which is just a gimmick. I have gone right off Ferrari again, this thing is a monster. The complete antithesis of the sublime 599 GTB, it makes a ZR-1 look classy.

 

[///M-Spec]

The point is it isn't called the 599 GTR or something, the 288 was still true to the designation as it was built solely for homologation. Whether it raced or not is irrelevant.

Still playing devil's advocate, if homologation status is all it takes for a Ferrari GTO to be a legendary car, why does the winning 250 GTO (which rumor has it sold for $28 million recently) command many times the price of a 'never turned a wheel in anger' 288 GTO (which sold for ~$560,000)?

Relative rarity between the two can't be the only reason for the value disparity.


M

 

[Clark]

Okay, that has to be the fastest I have ever fallen out of love. Looking at it and thinking about it more I hate the crassness, overcomplicated styling and the name which is just a gimmick. I have gone right off Ferrari again, this thing is a monster. The complete antithesis of the sublime 599 GTB, it makes a ZR-1 look classy.

Unfortunately all Ferrari can do now is sell out their brand (another example is the Theme Park and the California), it rather overshadows how good their cars actually are.

Still playing devil's advocate, if homologation status is all it takes for a Ferrari GTO to be a legendary car, why does the winning 250 GTO (which rumor has it sold for $28 million recently) command many times the price of a 'never turned a wheel in anger' 288 GTO (which sold for ~$560,000)?

Relative rarity between the two can't be the only reason for the value disparity.


M

There were only 39 250 GTO's made, and 200 288's. Yes that's not the only reason, but it is also to with the fact that the 250 has one of the most beautiful, hand-beaten aluminium bodies ever to grace a car. Age is also a factor, the 288 GTO is an often forgetten car though, when compared to the 250, F40, Enzo etc.
And I think homologation status alone makes it legendary, considering there have only been two GTO Ferrari's ever. This is the case for most homologation specials; Delta Intergrale, Sierra RS500 (coincidently I disapprove of the new Focus RS500), Porsche 959, Nismo R33 LM and just about every Group B rally car had ridiculously cool road versions.

 

[exigeracer]

I'd argue also that the design of both cars separate them in allure. The 250 GTO, although some might consider similar to its other 250 or 330 siblings, has a very unique & distinct flair to it. It isn't very difficult to make a 308 or 328 look very similar to a 288 GTO, which didn't quite get the same racecar/homologation treatment than, say, the 512 BB LM.

 

[DeathSmiles]

I love the car.

Knowing this car is not meant to bridge in a racing variation in Rally, or any other sport;
Knowing this vehicle is meant as a spiritual successor to the GTO namesake (and by the specs, deservedly so);

Only brings me to believe this vehicle is awesome, and bitching about things like
"OMG, its not a truuuuue GTO because "etc etc"" is really fruitless, and a waste of time/energy.

Beautiful car. Wondrous specs. Ferrari. Does anything else really freaking matter?

 

[Clark]

Yes.

 

[exigeracer]

Being beautiful, wonderfully specced and being Ferraris are not what earned the previous iterations the GTO badge. I don't see how this is a spiritual successor to the GTO namesake at all. Just specs, as you claim, are not enough.

 

[DeathSmiles]

Being beautiful, wonderfully specced and being Ferraris are not what earned the previous iterations the GTO badge.

Actually, those have alot to do with it.

I don't see how this is a spiritual successor to the GTO namesake at all.

Blind with geek-rage, you are.

Just specs, as you claim, are not enough.

According to Ferrari, it is.

 

[Jim Prower]

It might be your browser, IE8 doesn't like the site for some reason.

Firefox 3.6. I don't want to have to get Google Chrome, either, just for Ferrari.com...

 

[Rue]

It isn't very difficult to make a 308 or 328 look very similar to a 288 GTO.

Agreed, you can get a 3X8 to resemble a 288, but ironically they didn't actually share a single panel the same.

 

[harrytuttle]

There are lots of homologation cars that don't run the same aero components or spring rates or exact powertrain as the race car. A 911 GT3 RS for example. An E30 M3 is another.

There's a difference between "homologation special" and "roadgoing version" of a car. The 250 GTO was a roadgoing version; the 599 GTO is a homologation special. You can't really expect to go racing in it any more than you rally a showroom-spec STI Type-RA.

..what does this have to do with my comment that you were responding to?

With the comment that was quoted, I'm not sure. I must have cut the wrong part out.

 

[TheCracker]

There's a difference between "homologation special" and "roadgoing version" of a car. The 250 GTO was a roadgoing version; the 599 GTO is a homologation special.

The 250 GTO wasn't a 'roadgoing version' it was a pure racecar that just happened, due to the regulations of the time, to also be road legal. I'm pretty sure that all the 250 GTO's around today will have a race history from new.

The 599 GTO isn't a homologation anything. Ferrari didn't need to build it to homologate the 599XX since the 599XX it isn't a race car that runs in any FIA approved races. It's just a marketing exercise.

The 288 GTO was a homologation special, but sadly a race series for Group B cars never really came to fruition.

 

[GTjazzabrandy]

Sold Out Already!

 

[///M-Spec]

There's a difference between "homologation special" and "roadgoing version" of a car.

I'm puzzled at why you've taken issue with what amounts to an argument over semantics.

In fact the 599 GTO is based on the 599XX, the advanced experimental track car, and can be considered almost a road-going version*.

* emphasis mine.

"Roadgoing version" is a term Ferrari itself uses in the press release for the car. The accuracy of the term is by nature, inexact and open ended. The only implication is the car is modified for road use. What has been done to make it so isn't made explicit, and is open for interpretation.

Even if you've adopted a hardcore or conservative stance on what Ferrari may or may not do in order to adapt the XX for road use, I suggest you read the press release, quoted in post #16, since it seems you haven't. It directly address many of the technical details you took exception to. (For example, the car is down power because Ferrari says it must be emissions compliant. Seems perfectly reasonable if you want the car to be, uh roadgoing.)


M

 

[harrytuttle]

"Roadgoing version" is a term Ferrari itself uses in the press release for the car. The accuracy of the term is by nature, inexact and open ended. The only implication is the car is modified for road use. What has been done to make it so isn't made explicit, and is open for interpretation.

Even if you've adopted a hardcore or conservative stance on what Ferrari may or may not do in order to adapt the XX for road use, I suggest you read the press release, quoted in post #16, since it seems you haven't. It directly address many of the technical details you took exception to. (For example, the car is down power because Ferrari says it must be emissions compliant. Seems perfectly reasonable if you want the car to be, uh roadgoing.)

I did. It's not.

Sort of a street-legal stepping point between the production 599 GTB Fiorano and the track-only 599XX, the 599 GTO evokes the famous Gran Turismo Omologato designation made famous by the legendary 250 GTO of the 1960s and the muscle-bound 288 GTO of the 1980s.

AERODYNAMICS

The 599 GTO's aerodynamics have benefited significantly from Ferrari engineers' experience in F1 and with the 599XX which allowed downforce to be greatly increased without impacting on drag. Thanks to solutions transferred from the track car to the road-going version, the GTO generates downforce of 144 kg at 200 km/h. The entire car was honed, including the front, the sides, the flat underbody and cooling flows. In the latter instance, the GTO can count on improved ducting to the brake discs and pads, and the adoption of wheel doughnuts – a disc positioned outside the brake disc that ensure that hot air exiting the wheelarch stays as close to the body of the car as possible to reduce drag.

Work on the nose of the car was aimed at reducing the width of the wake generated by the front and thus reduce drag. The front spoiler incorporates a separate lower wing that increases downforce at the front of the car and increases the flow of cooling air to the oil radiator. On the flanks there's a new sill design with a more pronounced leading edge that improves the efficiency of the central section of the underbody. The underbody itself incorporates a new, lower front section with diffusers ahead of the front wheels to optimise downforce, and a new double-curve rear diffuser.

It is more closely derived from the track-only 599XX, rather than the road-going GTB, and boasts a lot of Formula 1-inspired technology.

In fact the 599 GTO is based on the 599XX, the advanced experimental track car, and can be considered almost a road-going version.

Horseshoes, hand grenades, and almost a road-going version.

It's actually quite removed from the 599XX. The active aerodynamics you mention aren't on the GTO (nor are most of the vanes and winglets that really added quite a lot to the aerodynamic performance). A quick look at the 599XX reveals how different the body is. On top of that, the interior isn't the same, either. The engine (down a good 40HP), the suspension (nowhere near as harsh), and the transmission (not quite the same, you can be sure) all point to a car that just isn't the same as the 599XX. It's more intense, more focused than the 599GTB, but to say it's a road version of the 599XX is to be simply uninformed.

Just because you glanced over the press release that doesn't mean you actually read it. Ferrari never said it was a road-going version, and in fact (as TheCracker pointed out) it can't even be a homologation of anything since the 599XX isn't part of any race series -- there's nothing to homologate.

As for the technical differences, they still stand. There's just about zero difference between the 250 GTO's made for racing and those registered on the road. The road-registered cars were done in order to homologate the car under FIA rules, thus making the 250 GTO an actual homologation special.

The 288 GTO was intended to be used for racing, but due to the collapse of Group B, it never was. That didn't stop Ferrari from building 200+ of them for homologation rules. Whether this qualifies as a homologated car or not is up for debate. The intention for entering in various races was there, and the cars were built to meet FIA regulations, despite the fact that the cars never raced.

The 599 GTO is a GTO in name only. There's no race series, nor any intention of entering motorsport (at least not yet). The term 'road-going' was indeed used in the press release, but was not specifically applied to the 599 GTO but instead the 'lesser' 599 GTB. Further, the major aerodynamic components are actually not on the GTO. The large external fins and dive plates, not to mention the extraordinary trunk-mounted fans, are all absent by design.

This has nothing to do with my own subjective definition of what Ferrari does with the 599XX or GTO (and I'm not even sure how that was interpreted as such), but rather the objective definition of homologated car. The English language is flexible and malleable, but generally not up for debate.

 

[Neal]

Very fast but it’s not a road car is it! Then again who cares, turn up the sound and enjoy

Source: http://www.ferrari.com/English/News/GT/Pages/100423_CAR_ferrari_599XX_record_nurburgring.aspx

Record of the Ferrari 599XX at the Nürburgring announced in Beijing

Beijing, 23 April – The Ferrari 599XX is the first ever production-derived sports car to break the 7-minute barrier on the classic 20.832 km Nordschleife circuit, lapping in 6 min 58.16 sec.

The 599XX, which inspired the 599 GTO, is an extreme berlinetta designed for track but not official competition use, and is a veritable technological laboratory incorporating a number of innovative solutions. Some of these will remain the exclusive preserve of the 599XX while others have already filtered down to the 599 GTO, introduced today at the Beijing Motor Show. These include the wheel doughnuts of F1 derivation which serve two purposes - to reduce turbulence and thus drag, and improve brake cooling.


Powered by a development of the V12 engine used by the 599 GTB Fiorano, the 599XX features Ferrari's High-Performance Dynamic Concept, a novel integrated design and chassis set-up that uses sophisticated electronics to govern the mechanical limits of the handling for maximum performance.

On the aerodynamics front, the car sees the introduction for the first time of the Actiflow™ System that increases downforce and/or cuts drag depending on the car’s trim during cornering. This, together with other careful detailing, ensures that the 599XX boasts extraordinary levels of downforce - up to 630 kg at 300 km/h.

Fundamental to the performance of the car was the development of specific components undertaken together with our technical partners: Brembo for the carbon-ceramic brakes, Michelin for the tyres and Shell for the fuel and lubricants.

 

[Stotty]

Stunningly impressive lap in isolation, but the Radical SR8 has already gone 10s faster than this... and the Radical was road legal and driven to and from the circuit.

I'm guessing the FXX was on slicks.

 

[Jim Prower]

Stunningly impressive lap in isolation, but the Radical SR8 has already gone 10s faster than this... and the Radical was road legal and driven to and from the circuit.

I'm guessing the FXX was on slicks.

Don't start that again!!!

 

[McLaren]

Seeing as its just a race car & not street legal, who cares if it was?

 

[freshseth83]

the 599XX is not technically a race car. It's street derived. It's a 599 pretty much with some active aero. But it doesn't weigh close to what a race car weighs. it's still around 3000lbs. the race cars that go along the ring in VLN weigh around 2600lbs. Of course they run on slicks also, if this car ran on slicks. The times are pretty close. The VLN racers do the laps about 10 seconds faster though. If you take away the GP track, the F1 circuit. Also the record holder for this track, the SR8 doesn't have a roof, and is pretty useless in everyday applications. So to say it's a street car because it's street legal is a joke.

And how come the Ferrari GTO gets so much love? What about the LFA? To me the Ferrari copied the wheel design of the LFA with the split 2 spoke 5 point wheel design. Check out my other thread about the LFA, there's video links on youtube of them in Red and Blue... check it out- https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=127290

 

[McLaren]

the 599XX is not technically a race car. It's street derived. It's a 599 pretty much with some active aero. But it doesn't weigh close to what a race car weighs. it's still around 3000lbs. the race cars that go along the ring in VLN weigh around 2600lbs. Of course they run on slicks also, if this car ran on slicks. The times are pretty close. The VLN racers do the laps about 10 seconds faster though. If you take away the GP track, the F1 circuit. Also the record holder for this track, the SR8 doesn't have a roof, and is pretty useless in everyday applications. So to say it's a street car because it's street legal is a joke.

It's still not street legal, so what tires it runs doesn't matter.

And how come the Ferrari GTO gets so much love? What about the LFA? To me the Ferrari copied the wheel design of the LFA with the split 2 spoke 5 point wheel design. Check out my other thread about the LFA, there's video links on youtube of them in Red and Blue... check it out- https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=127290

I have the same style wheel on my Acura, so Ferrari & Lexus must have copied me too.

It's a design that can provide additional cooling for the brakes. It's been around for years.