Ferrari F14T

[prisonermonkeys]

I thought it was agreed upon that the problem is with their Wind tunnel and now engine.

"It's a problem with the wind tunnel" is a favourite excuse of teams who are in trouble and have no idea how to get out of it. Wind tunnel problems are big, expensive, and above all else, lengthy problems to fix. Hence teams with no idea on what to do like it because it sets expectations for a quick turn-around pretty low.

As for the engine, the Renault power unit isn't great, but Red Bull's aerodynamics make up for it. Ferrari might not have an engine as good as the Mercedes, so it's better than the Renault.

 

[BHRxRacer]

"It's a problem with the wind tunnel" is a favourite excuse of teams who are in trouble and have no idea how to get out of it. Wind tunnel problems are big, expensive, and above all else, lengthy problems to fix. Hence teams with no idea on what to do like it because it sets expectations for a quick turn-around pretty low.

As for the engine, the Renault power unit isn't great, but Red Bull's aerodynamics make up for it. Ferrari might not have an engine as good as the Mercedes, so it's better than the Renault.

I don't think the wind tunnel correlation was just an excuse. Didn't they attempt to use Toyota's or something?

By engine I didn't mean performance. I was referring to the weight. I feel so sorry for Sauber.

edit

None of this takes away from what I said. I don't think Domincali alone was the problem.

 

[TenEightyOne]

"It's a problem with the wind tunnel" is a favourite excuse of teams who are in trouble and have no idea how to get out of it. Wind tunnel problems are big, expensive, and above all else, lengthy problems to fix. Hence teams with no idea on what to do like it because it sets expectations for a quick turn-around pretty low.

As I endlessly refer to, I was lucky enough to get an up-close-and-personal look at a major team's wind tunnel/CAD set up last year (and got an early look at the 2014 shape, things are better than they were!).

The models were all a percentage of original size, which introduces the critical problem of flex. If you build a model at, say, 50% (I shan't reveal this team's preferred size) then you have to know that everything about it is scaled. You can't use the 100% size material because it won't necessarily display deformation tendencies in the same proportions.

What this team were doing to measure and scale those distortions was astonishing, the lengths they were going to (about 50%, haha) and the money they were spending, astonishing. They think some teams are one or two years behind their understanding of wind-tunnel materials, CFD expertise isn't rare nowadays but materials engineers who can think to scale are, apparently. Which makes them expensive to find and keep. The team I spoke with felt that Ferrari's problem is all to do with a failure to predict the front/rear wing flex to the kind of margin required in F1 coupled with a similar problem with spring compression. They run the rear too hard/high to compensate for over-compression and have a car whose pitch is always "a bit wrong".

Interesting theory if true, it certainly seems like that when you watch them. If I had Ferrari's money I'd just go full Montezemolo and build a 100% wind-tunnel. Ow 'aard can itta be?

 

[HKS racer]

I know all this because I was the one that went around posting this information on GTP, and even in this thread here if you look at the earlier pages it shows me talking about it. I can also find other quotes if you'd like. I know when the project started because Mercedes started theirs around the same time frame. Both groups bought up engineers at the same time to to ensure their projects went well. No Byrne didn't come later he was always there and if you can find info that says otherwise, at this point your theoretical time line seems to be getting pulled out someones rear. I gave you an actual source, BBC also reported this too but yeah...

And yet again I know all there roles and most fans of F1 do as well. However, unless you can show us this info rather than some Ferrari forum making unsubstantiated claims.

Rough google translate,

There is the hand of the super consultant Rory Byrne, as well as that of Nikolas Tombazis, chief designer, and his deputy, Fabio Montague. The project was started under the direction of Pat Fry and was inherited by James Allison

Rory Byrne is a super consultant he didn't start the project. Why Tombazis need a super consultant and why "The project started under the direction of Pat Fry was inherited by James Allison"? Probably a late lack of confidence on them? Domenicali realized too late they were not good enough? What do you really think about Tombazis and Fry? Are they success engineers?
http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/34121/ferrari-f14-t-aspirapolvere-ha-il-gradino
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=483564&f=12

This is when Fry was expecting other teams copying his brilliant pull rod suspension
http://f1times.co.uk/news/display/07172
http://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-news/ferrari-f1-to-evolve-pull-rod-suspension-on-f2013/
No one did it.

What race knowledge or engineering background does he have again? Also where again do you get this info from? Cause you've never been one that uses sources to back up claims, so I and I think others are a bit curious.

According to Autosprint, the most important motorsport magazine in Italy this is what happened:
http://autosprint.corrieredellosport.it/2014/04/16/domenicali-i-retroscena-delladdio/14691/
Warning: lenguage barrier will not help fully understand the meaning of the article.
In brief: Domenicali realized in february the car wasn't competitive, he was thinking to leave at the end of the season anyway, there were no engineers free on the market to replace Tombazis and Fry now, media and fans were needing some blood, so he left now. LCDM was surprised by this decision, Marchionne quickly came to Maranello and decided Marco Mattiacci to be the new team leader. Mattiacci is a John Elkann friend. Elkann and Marchionne said no to Ross Brawn because they are acting a cost reduction policy since Todt's gone.

THE RESIGNATION - Domenicali has handed his resignation to President Montezemolo, not Saturday as they say , but even last Thursday, April 10. Taking advantage of surprise and unprepared Montezemolo, who tried to dissuade him without success. The President then hastened to consult with Marchionne , who the next day, Friday 11 came to Maranello with the excuse of the inauguration of a wing of the Ferrari museum , already addressing the problem of replacement. The two have been ruled out resorting to external solutions like Ross Brawn , for example, because the Ferrari for some time by the will of all Marchionne and the Fiat group has a policy of strict control of budgets and expenditure and signings millionaires era Todt ( and which led to his detachment) have been abolished long ago.

MATTIACCI - The name of Marco Mattiacci , a John Elkann friend and well known to all , came out almost immediately. Montezemolo was fine because it is an expression of the internal managerial Ferrari, Marchionne was fine because it is not a technical but a product manager and marketing , so similar to that Luca De Meo who was one of his pupils in Fiat and one of the men key to the revival of trade and especially the brand image of Turin (so much so that then was snatched from Audi Fiat ) .

What are they doing next? Ferrari Turbo Diesel Hybrid SUV? And this Mattiacci clean marketing face advertising on race tracks?

And here LCDM saying Mattiacci was chosen in perfect harmony with Marchionne (LOL)
http://autosprint.corrieredellospor...zemolo-mattiacci-scelto-con-marchionne/14676/
Which means Marchionne choosed Mattiacci and LCDM said "Yes, Sir!".

Oh and now I get what "F14T" really means, it means "FIAT".

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Rough google translate,

Rory Byrne is a super consultant he didn't start the project. Why Tombazis need a super consultant and why "The project started under the direction of Pat Fry was inherited by James Allison"? Probably a late lack of confidence on them? Domenicali realized too late they were not good enough? What do you really think about Tombazis and Fry? Are they success engineers?
http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/34121/ferrari-f14-t-aspirapolvere-ha-il-gradino
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=483564&f=12

Yes if you go back and look I show that specifically. Saying that Allison took over Fry's former position and has the lead role in chassis design of the car, while Fry has some new position that was just made. Also this lack of confidence must have been around for awhile since as I say again Byrne has been there do you not recall this (which I dug up just for you) when he was called back to work on the F2012. http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula-one/21411177

This is when Fry was expecting other teams copying his brilliant pull rod suspension
http://f1times.co.uk/news/display/07172
http://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-news/ferrari-f1-to-evolve-pull-rod-suspension-on-f2013/
No one did it.

Yeah we know, and I started to see Pat Fry as another Mike Gascoyne with passable but not great designs but still over paid nonetheless.

According to Autosprint, the most important motorsport magazine in Italy this is what happened:
http://autosprint.corrieredellosport.it/2014/04/16/domenicali-i-retroscena-delladdio/14691/
Warning: lenguage barrier will not help fully understand the meaning of the article.
In brief: Domenicali realized in february the car wasn't competitive, he was thinking to leave at the end of the season anyway, there were no engineers free on the market to replace Tombazis and Fry now, media and fans were needing some blood, so he left now. LCDM was surprised by this decision, Marchionne quickly came to Maranello and decided Marco Mattiacci to be the new team leader. Mattiacci is a John Elkann friend. Elkann and Marchionne said no to Ross Brawn because they are acting a cost reduction policy since Todt's gone.

...this doesn't explain anything I've said and if fans want "blood" then I'm glad not to be a Ferrari fan because it's quite obvious who the issue is and has been for some years.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Mixed reactions from within the team - Räikkönen was genuinely surprised by Domenicali's departure, but Alonso doesn't seem fazed by it. It will be interesting to see how both of them do this weekend; if Räikkönen was that surprised by it, then it suggests to me that he is out of step with the rest of the team. And since recruiting him was Domenicali's call, he could quickly outstay his welcome if he does not perform. Doubly so if the team feel they have to work to keep Alonso in the team.

 

[RACECAR]

I may just be slightly overreaching on this, but this just smells of a team that's falling apart. Granted I haven't watched F1 as long as many here have, but this feels even more tension filled then the Inter-team skirmish between Vettel and Webber at Red Bull.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Nah, this was just the elephant in the room getting ready to squash the team. If Domenicali didn't jump, then he would have been pushed sooner rather than later. It's mostly symbolic, because getting rid of your technical staff only makes the situation worse since they are the only ones who can fix the problem. But Ferrari haven't won a title since Domenicali was appointed team principal, and if they couldn't capitalise on major rule changes - especially considering the way Mercedes have - then he was always going to go.

 

[pyrates]

Mixed reactions from within the team - Räikkönen was genuinely surprised by Domenicali's departure, but Alonso doesn't seem fazed by it. It will be interesting to see how both of them do this weekend; if Räikkönen was that surprised by it, then it suggests to me that he is out of step with the rest of the team. And since recruiting him was Domenicali's call, he could quickly outstay his welcome if he does not perform. Doubly so if the team feel they have to work to keep Alonso in the team.

Well, to be fair he was away for a long time so he is basically new in the team so to say. The team dynamics might have been very different back then. I also have a feeling that Räikkönen might not be the best at picking up politics and team dynamics within the team. I admit that I might also be stereotyping a little bit too much.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Well, to be fair he was away for a long time so he is basically new in the team so to say. The team dynamics might have been very different back then. I also have a feeling that Räikkönen might not be the best at picking up politics and team dynamics within the team. I admit that I might also be stereotyping a little bit too much.

Ferrari dynamics haven't changed, it's the same attitude of "Ferrari first, we don't care if your a WDC driver with us or not or won tons of races for us" that pushed Kimi out the first time and what he is witnessing again but with a different person. It's also the same attitude that put a muzzle on Alonso last year then backed off when they realized that if he left they'd have no one but that still wont stop them. Ferrari ego that's the issue.

 

[pyrates]

Ferrari dynamics haven't changed, it's the same attitude of "Ferrari first, we don't care if your a WDC driver with us or not or won tons of races for us" that pushed Kimi out the first time and what he is witnessing again but with a different person. It's also the same attitude that put a muzzle on Alonso last year then backed off when they realized that if he left they'd have no one but that still wont stop them. Ferrari ego that's the issue.

True, Ferrari will be Ferrari. What I meant is rather the power structure within the team management.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Well, to be fair he was away for a long time so he is basically new in the team so to say. The team dynamics might have been very different back then. I also have a feeling that Räikkönen might not be the best at picking up politics and team dynamics within the team. I admit that I might also be stereotyping a little bit too much.

Be that as it may, it's Ferrari. They need to turn themselves around, and they need to do it quickly. They are already behind, so they don't have the time to spare waiting for Räikkönen to catch up. If he was a rookie, it might be a different story - be he is not. He is very experienced, and a former World Champion. For him to miss the signs that Domenicali was under pressure was a big mistake, and as Domenicali's hire, he needs to get back into the groove right now. With every race that he is beaten by Alonso, another nail gets driven into his coffin.

In light of Domenicali's departure, I'd venture that taking Räikkönen was a big mistake. Hulkenberg or Perez or Bianchi would have been better choices.

 

[pyrates]

Be that as it may, it's Ferrari. They need to turn themselves around, and they need to do it quickly. They are already behind, so they don't have the time to spare waiting for Räikkönen to catch up. If he was a rookie, it might be a different story - be he is not. He is very experienced, and a former World Champion. For him to miss the signs that Domenicali was under pressure was a big mistake, and as Domenicali's hire, he needs to get back into the groove right now. With every race that he is beaten by Alonso, another nail gets driven into his coffin.

In light of Domenicali's departure, I'd venture that taking Räikkönen was a big mistake. Hulkenberg or Perez or Bianchi would have been better choices.

I would agree that for Räikkönen it was the wrong move. But why do see the Räikkönen hire as a mistake from Ferrari's side?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I would agree that for Räikkönen it was the wrong move. But why do see the Räikkönen hire as a mistake from Ferrari's side?

Because as he said there were better choices. Even in Lotus form it took him a bit of time to get use to the car and then there were weekend where he was hit and miss and the car wasn't even that bad because Grosjean would match or beat him. As I've said myself already he isn't the same Kimi of 2008 and prior, like Massa he has dwindled with age which is quite sad.

 

[pyrates]

Because as he said there were better choices. Even in Lotus form it took him a bit of time to get use to the car and then there were weekend where he was hit and miss and the car wasn't even that bad because Grosjean would match or beat him. As I've said myself already he isn't the same Kimi of 2008 and prior, like Massa he has dwindled with age which is quite sad.

Yeah ok, I can see that. What I have noticed about Räikkönen is that he seems less motivated than before. So one of the mentioned alternatives might have been more hungry for success so to speak. I must admit that he isn't the driver I follow most so i might be wrong. What is your take on this?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Yeah ok, I can see that. What I have noticed about Räikkönen is that he seems less motivated than before. So one of the mentioned alternatives might have been more hungry for success so to speak. I must admit that he isn't the driver I follow most so i might be wrong. What is your take on this?

You mean the same lack of motivation people claimed during and after winning the championship, problem with Kimi and many from his homeland is that they are people of little words for the most part form what I've seen and had the privilege of meeting. What that says to the rest of the world is the guy is hard to read, he lacks a lot of what others do and so on, however listen to him over the radio and he is no happier than other drivers that can't get the set up they want.

I see Kimi as a smart guy and a great driver but adapting to tech changes not being his forte. Alonso seems to be a jack of all trades and master of most of those trades when it comes to racing a car, it's hard to stand out against something like that. I think Kimi can catch up but the point is whether it is in the time frame Ferrari thinks he should have or not.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

But why do see the Räikkönen hire as a mistake from Ferrari's side?

For one, there are better choices. Secondly, he only has a season or two left in him. Ferrari have always tried to get long-term hires where they could; even Ivan Capelli had a three-year deal to begin with. In the worst-case scenario, Alonso and Räikkönen will retire at or around the same time, throwing the team's stability into disarray. Ferrari should have found a long-term prospect, who could take over as team leader when Alonso leaves or retires.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Another disappointing race for Räikkönen, right when Alonso proves that the F14T can compete with Red Bull.

So, if you're running Ferrari, what do you do? Stick with it and hope he can find something and soon? Or take the hit now and replace him? And if so, who do you replace him with?

 

[GTPorsche]

If Ferrari were unable to snatch.. say.. Hulkenberg, their only choice from their test drivers would have to be Davide Rigon as their other two test drivers have the combined age of 83.

Probably Hulkenberg though.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It would be difficult to dig Hulkenberg out of Force India. The Ferrari isn't much better than the VJM07, and although they are having a resurgence, I don't think Hulkenberg would commit unless they can demonstrate that they can keep their momentum.

If a mid-season change is on order - and at this point, I think it might be the best way forward - then I would go for Grosjean. We know he can be fast, he has lost his impetuous streak, and he must be getting frustrated with the E22. Whether or not he is a viable long-term prospect remains to be seen, but he'd probably jump at the chance to drive anything but the Lotus.

Failing that, I would wait to see how the next Formula Renault 3.5 Series round goes, and take a chance on Carlos Sainz Jnr. It's risky, but none of Ferrari's test drivers are up to the task.

 

[BHRxRacer]

It would be difficult to dig Hulkenberg out of Force India. The Ferrari isn't much better than the VJM07, and although they are having a resurgence, I don't think Hulkenberg would commit unless they can demonstrate that they can keep their momentum.

If a mid-season change is on order - and at this point, I think it might be the best way forward - then I would go for Grosjean. We know he can be fast, he has lost his impetuous streak, and he must be getting frustrated with the E22. Whether or not he is a viable long-term prospect remains to be seen, but he'd probably jump at the chance to drive anything but the Lotus.

Failing that, I would wait to see how the next Formula Renault 3.5 Series round goes, and take a chance on Carlos Sainz Jnr. It's risky, but none of Ferrari's test drivers are up to the task.

But Ferrari doesn't demonstrate they're good enough to anyone, the whole world demonstrates they're good enough to share the same earth.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

... What?

 

[BHRxRacer]

Let's see if someone else gets it then.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Or maybe they could keep it on-topic.

 

[BHRxRacer]

It's very on topic, unless you count your change with an abacus.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Räikkönen has shot down claims he is lacking motivation because of a poor start to the season.

Which is strange, considering that I wasn't aware such claims had been made until he shot them down. So if he hadn't said anything, we would be none the wiser.

Unusual for him to he so defensive.

 

[Peter.]

Isn't it extremely unprofessional of Ferrari to be trying to force Raikkonen out of the team after only a few races of sub par performances? Even if Hulkenberg would be a better fit, isn't it more trouble to get Raikkonen out and Hulk in than it's worth?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Isn't it extremely unprofessional of Ferrari to be trying to force Raikkonen out of the team after only a few races of sub par performances?

Well, for one, nobody has said Ferrari are actually trying to do that. We're just speculating on what they should do.

Secondly, and more importantly, Räikkönen will have a performance clause in his contract. If he continues to disappoint, Ferrari will be well within their rights to release him from it. They hired him on the expectation that, at the very least, he could match Alonso, and so far he has consistently failed to do that. Right now, the question they need to ask themselves is how long they are willing to tolerate his underperformances, and what the best course of action is when the time comes to let him go.

 

[BHRxRacer]

Räikkönen has shot down claims he is lacking motivation because of a poor start to the season.

Which is strange, considering that I wasn't aware such claims had been made until he shot them down. So if he hadn't said anything, we would be none the wiser.

Unusual for him to he so defensive.

Umm, no.

http://en.espnf1.com/china/motorsport/story/155145.html

Asked if his lack of results affected his motivation, Raikkonen said: "I don't know why you always come up with motivation. If I didn't have motivation I wouldn't be here answering these kinds of questions. It's **** all to do with that.

It's not the only source that says it was an answer to a question.

Furthermore, he was asked about his motivation at least twice last year. Hence "I don't know why you always come up with motivation".

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Oh. It's you.

Read the article again. The author clearly implies that questions about Räikkönen's motivation this year have existed for some time, rather than just in this interview.