Finally, A Prius I Would Drive

[Joel]

When you're buying a car you're paying for the amenities it provides; whether that is performance, luxury or MPG. Pick any electric car in the market right now and I can find a gasoline powered car that has the same features at a fraction of the price. That is my whole point. Electric cars now are too expensive for the regular middle class worker to afford.

Well yeah, they're more expensive because it's new tech (which is a selling point in and of itself). Depending on where you live you can get a car like the Leaf for under 25K (don't take this as me supporting government subsidies on electric cars because I absolutely do not, but they do exist) which is competitive in the new car market. Of course they're not as good value as a plain jane gas car but they don't get cross shopped that way. They're a luxury product, people buy electric cars because they're electric cars. Decrying electric cars as something that doesn't work because the middle class can't afford them is like saying a BMW 5 series is stupid because it's not affordable.

Not everyone has 40k lying around to blow on new cars

No, but someone who is in the market for an electric car isn't in the market for a cheap used one. And someone in the market for a new $20k Civic might be swayed to a $25K Leaf when you aren't paying any gas bills. It's not all about saving the whales, there's a penny pinching argument to be made, if you can eliminate fuel costs on your daily commute then it might make sense to have an electric car as your daily commuter for a long time.

Not when they go 150 miles on a charge and takes 8+ hours to fully charge, no not practical at all.

As mentioned, how many people drive more than 150 miles a day? I don't think many people would want an electric car as their only car, but a lot of families have more than one car already, and they can use their other car for the longer drives.

They're surely not all the way there yet but to say they're just for tree huggers is understating how far they've come.

 

[Harry6784]

Like I said the potential is there but it has not yet fully developed. Give it 20 or 30 years they they will catch on. But here, now in 2014 the appeal for electric cars is just too small.

 

[Zenith]

And you are?

I'm not divulging personal info on the net. Also even if I'm not, it doesn't matter since the (once again here, watch closely) professional automotive engineers are building electric cars.

We had the capability to build electric cars a hundred years ago; you can't say they are more advanced. When the internal combustion engine was developed, it was accepted much faster because it was clearly more efficient than steam power.

I'll take wrong on both accounts for 500, Alex.

Electric cars are being built to satisfy the wants of the green movement, nothing more. Cars with gasoline engines are currently better in nearly every aspect than electric cars. If a company manages to build an electric car than can outrun a used Camry, but costs less, I MIGHT be able to accept and respect it.

This is like saying the only reason your cell phone is run by electricity is to satisfy the wants of the green movement. Battery powered cars make plenty of sense for 90% of the driving people do, that is around town driving.

Either way, every production car is built to satisfy the needs of some group of people. Everything from McLaren P1's to Nissan Leafs. The "green movement" and everyone else who believes they could be well served by an electric car make up a sizable portion of the market.

When you're buying a car you're paying for the amenities it provides; whether that is performance, luxury or MPG. Pick any electric car in the market right now and I can find a gasoline powered car that has the same features at a fraction of the price.

Okay. Find a gasoline powered car that I don't need to fill with dead dinosaurs and doesn't spew fumes out the back.

Not everyone has 40k lying around to blow on new cars

But plenty of people do. Plenty more people have the ~$25K to spend on a Chevy Spark and plenty of people have the money to spend on a Tesla.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I see a couple Teslas a week; not only is that impressive considering the cost of entry, but they're being driven in the absolutely frigid winter we're getting. That's all sorts of awesome to me.

Regardless of your opinion on electric/hybrid vehicles, there certainly is plenty of demand for them, at least in urban environments, where they make a whole lot of sense - provided you're not willing to just forgo car ownership in general in favour of alternate modes of transportation in the city.

 

[xXKingJoshXx]

I see a couple Teslas a week; not only is that impressive considering the cost of entry, but they're being driven in the absolutely frigid winter we're getting. That's all sorts of awesome to me.

The Tesla Model S is apparently really good in snow, and the batteries are barely affected by the freezing temperatures:



@Harry6784, 20 or 30 years for them to catch on? Yeah right. The technology is already here, it's just getting it down to a price that everyone can afford and getting the stereotypical "Electric cars are so dumb bro" viewpoint out of people.

 

[Slash]

One of my gripes with electric cars is that its difficult to tell if they are running which can be dangerous sometimes.

 

[Harry6784]

@Harry6784, 20 or 30 years for them to catch on? Yeah right. The technology is already here, it's just getting it down to a price that everyone can afford and getting the stereotypical "Electric cars are so dumb bro" viewpoint out of people.

Yea... that takes time. In the 1990's we 'had the technology' to make a computer as fast as the one you're using now. It cost $30k+ but nevermind that, we could do it. Same with electric cars. Technology is there but all that is needed now is to streamline the manufacturing process. The cheaper and easier things are to build, the less the consumer will have to pay.

 

[Grayfox]

Not when they go 150 miles on a charge and takes 8+ hours to fully charge, no not practical at all.

So you travel more than 60miles one is way to work.

This is how are EVs should be used.

Remove chargeing plug.
Drive like a sane person to work.
Drive home like a sane person.
Put car on charge

 

[Crash]

We had the capability to build electric cars a hundred years ago; you can't say they are more advanced.

No we didn't. Electricity was discovered, but battery technology and size, and control mechanisms needed to power a car was no where near capable.

It's like saying that the first internal combustion engines were first invented before 1800s, and then lamenting in 1900 the rudimentary state of car internal combustion engines.

When the internal combustion engine was developed, it was accepted much faster because it was clearly more efficient than steam power.

And the relevance of that to electric vehicles is?

Electric cars are being built to satisfy the wants of the green movement, nothing more. Cars with gasoline engines are currently better in nearly every aspect than electric cars. If a company manages to build an electric car than can outrun a used Camry, but costs less, I MIGHT be able to accept and respect it.

No, it's not. Electric cars have significantly better nonrecurring cost profiles than gasoline cars, they can and to many people, do economically make sense. Not because they are tree-huggers.

But you know what? That's not going to happen in my lifetime. If electricity is to succeed gasoline, it would have done so already.

Unless you're going to die in the next 5-10 years, I wouldn't be so sure.

Why would someone buy a 25k+ electric car for daily commuting when he could buy a 5k Civic and do the same job much cheaper. Just because we can make electric cars doesn't mean regular non-tree hugging people will buy them. There has to be a practical reason.

Why would someone buy a $25k+ Camaro for daily commuting when he could buy a $2k Hyundai and do the same job much cheaper. Just because we can make muscle cars doesn't mean regular non-muscle car geeks will buy them. There has to be a practical reason.

Yup, sports cars and muscle cars should all be discontinued. There's no point in them.

Electric cars are admittedly generally more expensive to buy than the gasoline powered equivalent vehicle right now.* But the electric car industry is still fairly young. In the next few years, the cost curve will come down significantly as technology continues to develop and grow, and economies of scale start to take hold, to the point where gasoline and electric vehicles will be competitively priced. This is just the nature of new technologies, but this is hardly any reason to stop electric vehicle development. If that was the case, we would never have had more than than the Benz Patentwagen.

*Electric cars are only more expensive to buy, but with the whole vehicle ownership lifecycle taken into account, the cost disparity significantly diminishes. In just fuel alone, if a person spends $2000 each year on gas, in 5 years time, the person will save $10000 from not having to purchase fuel. Suddenly, electric cars don't seem to expensive anymore.

Like I said the potential is there but it has not yet fully developed. Give it 20 or 30 years they they will catch on. But here, now in 2014 the appeal for electric cars is just too small.

To you, maybe, but there are plenty of people who find electric cars appealing.

 

[McLaren]

Electric cars are being built to satisfy the wants of the green movement, nothing more. Cars with gasoline engines are currently better in nearly every aspect than electric cars. If a company manages to build an electric car than can outrun a used Camry, but costs less, I MIGHT be able to accept and respect it.

Guess what? The company that can build a long lasting electric car is the very same that built that Camry. Toyota is already known for their reliability over time, so it's obvious any hybrid they build will be incorporating those features.

And while not used (which is a ridiculously stupid argument as pointed out by others), a top-of-the-line Prius C is only $1,000 more than a Camry & is arguably nicer equipped.

But you know what? That's not going to happen in my lifetime. If electricity is to succeed gasoline, it would have done so already.

And how old are you again? Relatively young I'm betting, young enough to probably not realize that the development of electric hybrids has been advancing quickly at half your age.

No, I don't speak for the automotive community; I'm only against the traitors who want to change it.

Traitors? Goodness, grow up you elitist twit.

Like I said the potential is there but it has not yet fully developed. Give it 20 or 30 years they they will catch on. But here, now in 2014 the appeal for electric cars is just too small.

The appeal is too small?

If the appeal is too small, why do electric/hybrid sales keep increasing significantly for the past 3-4 years? EV sales were up 300% over 2012. In the first 3 years that EV cars were officially on sale, their sales saw 3 times as many as the automobile did in its first 3 years; 8,000 cars were on American roads after 3 years. Adjusted for population, that means 33,000 EVs should be on the roads after 3 years. They hit that target in 19 months. And with the current growth rate, they expect EVs to have a dominating chunk of the market by 2020.

So, unless you young guys are really 90+ years old, you guys are clearly not doing any homework on the demand of hybrids, (or 1 person's case, the actual features of them).

 

[Slash]

Ah I could care less about electic cars. Give me a screaming V8 and ill be on my merry little way out of your business

 

[White & Nerdy]

@McLaren There is irony hiding in your post. I'll probably get banned if I point out where, but it's there.

 

[Azuremen]

I never really got the Prius owner hate, as several friends of mine have owned them over the years and sped more than most. Idiots and slow drivers are hardly limited to the "save the enviroment" wannabes.

 

[White & Nerdy]

It may have something to do with how environmentalism and car culture are diametrically opposed, and that fuel economy & emissions regulations will make it incredibly difficult for car enthusiasts (except the ones who can somehow enjoy a car that has one forward speed and makes no noise except for the obnoxious battery fans) to continue being car enthusiasts.

And also, the fact that there's no way for them to win ideologically. If they go slow, they're obnoxious tree huggers. If they go fast, they're hypocrites.

And also, I personally hate them because I think they're the exact opposite of what a car should be, and I hate anything touted as "green" or "environmentally freindly" anyway.

 

[JMoney]

McLaren- I'm talking about fully electric cars like the Leaf, not hybrids. Hybrids still require gasoline to run, and there are hypercar hybrids, which are good. But I would take the gas-guzzling Aventador over any of them.

White & Nerdy has it right- the green movement goes directly against car culture, and we car enthusiasts shouldn't let environmentalism affect our cars.

 

[Joey D]

The green movement doesn't go against car culture, you can be concerned about protecting the environment and still enjoy cars, it's not black or white.

 

[TheCracker]

Car culture has to evolve as the world changes. Always has done, always will do. For children born today, in sixteen years time their 'car culture' will likely be heavily influenced by elements of what is emerging today ie green, environmentally friendly cars. It's not about butting your head against a wall, you've just got to accept it and move with it. Nothing ages you more than complaining about todays culture.

 

[Harry6784]

Why would someone buy a $25k+ Camaro for daily commuting when he could buy a $2k Hyundai and do the same job much cheaper. Just because we can make muscle cars doesn't mean regular non-muscle car geeks will buy them. There has to be a practical reason.

Yup, sports cars and muscle cars should all be discontinued. There's no point in them.

I'm talking about practical daily drivable cars. Someone will pay 25k for a Camaro because they want the great performance per/$$, not the practicality or efficiency of the Hyundai. I have seen some great electric sports cars, but even though the price on them is ridiculous, I'm glad that they're trying. I'm not against electric cars, but the market is just too young for for me to justify the money for an electric car right now. When an electric car gets cheaper to buy/own than a current gasoline powered car yet provides the same features, I will have a reason to buy one.

 

[Joel]

I'm talking about practical daily drivable cars. Someone will pay 25k for a Camaro because they want the great performance per/$$, not the practicality or efficiency of the Hyundai. I have seen some great electric sports cars, but even though the price on them is ridiculous, I'm glad that they're trying. I'm not against electric cars, but the market is just too young for for me to justify the money for an electric car right now. When an electric car gets cheaper to buy/own than a current gasoline powered car yet provides the same features, I will have a reason to buy one.

Once again, what you're missing is that the fact that the car is electric is a selling feature (performance) in and of itself. Whether it's because they're a "tree hugger", like the instant torque of electrics, or live in a city and don't want to pay gas bills for commuting is irrelevant.

@McLaren There is irony hiding in your post. I'll probably get banned if I point out where, but it's there.

We get it. Hybrid and EV drivers are all filthy elitist liberals who hate America.

Also you still don't seem to understand that car enthusiast means nothing more than "person who is enthusiastic about cars". Electric cars are cars, ergo the people who are interested in them are car enthusiasts.

Some day I'd like to have a muscle car (Chevelle or Mercury Cougar ideally), and an EV. Does that make me a walking hypocrite? I guess so. Maybe some day I'll drive an electric car to the woods and go hunting, or drive my muscle car to a café in Montréal.

 

[Azuremen]

And also, the fact that there's no way for them to win ideologically. If they go slow, they're obnoxious tree huggers. If they go fast, they're hypocrites.

And also, I personally hate them because I think they're the exact opposite of what a car should be, and I hate anything touted as "green" or "environmentally freindly" anyway.

How does the world look in black and white?

 

[Zenith]

It is truly astounding how difficult it is for people to swallow that other people might not like what you like.

Crazy concept, but maybe the pleasure some people get out of their Nissan Leaf is similar to the pleasure you get out of your Camaro.

 

[Joel]

It is truly astounding how difficult it is for people to swallow that other people might not like what you like.

Crazy concept, but maybe the pleasure some people get out of their Nissan Leaf is similar to the pleasure you get out of your Camaro.

And then there's those crazy ones who can enjoy both. Let's not bring that up lest his head explode from the hypocrisy.

 

[Harry6784]

I'm not against other people having electric cars, but I'm not buying one because for point A to B transportation it doesn't make any financial sense. A Nissan Leaf is listed at $28,980. I can find a used beater on Craigslist for $5000 that gets at least 30MPG. Gas around here is about $3.00 a gallon. That means that I will have to drive the Nissan Leaf 239,800 miles just to break even. That's more than driving from here to the moon. That doesn't even include cost of electricity to charge the Leaf (I know its cheap but still).

EV's may be great to drive, but for cheap, basic transportation, like I said a million times, they are not practical at all.

 

[Zenith]

I use my car as basic transportation. It makes no financial sense to buy for basic transportation. I bought it because I like it and I use it as basic transportation. It's almost like electric cars can do the same thing!

My mind is blown by hard this concept is for people to swallow.

 

[Slash]

I use my car as basic transportation. It makes no financial sense to buy for basic transportation. I bought it because I like it and I use it as basic transportation. It's almost like electric cars can do the same thing!

My mind is blown by hard this concept is for people to swallow.

It still doesn't mean it makes financial sense.

 

[xXKingJoshXx]

@Harry6784, you could buy a PS4, but a PS1 also plays games and is cheaper so why not buy it instead?

 

[Slash]

@Harry6784, you could buy a PS4, but a PS1 also plays games and is cheaper so why not buy it instead?

That's making it sound like electric cars are better in everything over the conventional car. I disagree.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

I'm not against other people having electric cars, but I'm not buying one because for point A to B transportation it doesn't make any financial sense. A Nissan Leaf is listed at $28,980. I can find a used beater on Craigslist for $5000 that gets at least 30MPG. Gas around here is about $3.00 a gallon. That means that I will have to drive the Nissan Leaf 239,800 miles just to break even. That's more than driving from here to the moon. That doesn't even include cost of electricity to charge the Leaf (I know its cheap but still).

EV's may be great to drive, but for cheap, basic transportation, like I said a million times, they are not practical at all.

You nailed it. While it sounds great in theory that you will be "saving money using an electric car", its not as practical at all...... YET.

Example. Someone I work with bought a Chevy Volt when it first came out (2012 I think). She got sucked into the hype about "using electric will save you gas money". By the time she included the warranty, taxes and closing cost it was almost $50,000!!!! That does not even include gas to run the car, electricity to charge the car, the tires, or any of the maintenance. While I agree its great to save money and we all want to save, it will take her a lifetime to make up the difference in the price of gas compared to that $50,000 price tag. In fact I don't even think she will ever make that money back. (she is about 50 years old) The other problem is she gets nowhere near the gas mileage they advertise.

They are not practical yet, but I do believe 5-10 years down the road these electric cars will be more practical and will indeed save money. But not right now.

 

[Zenith]

It still doesn't mean it makes financial sense.

It most certainly does. If I like something then it makes sense to buy it, right?

In my case I get $x worth of enjoyment out of buying an old Mustang and using it as an old pony car. I will also get $y worth of utility out using it as a car. Add them together and the car starts making financial sense.

Replace Mustang with Leaf, replace pony car with electric car.

 

[Slash]

It most certainly does. If I like something then it makes sense to buy it, right?

In my case I get $x worth of enjoyment out of buying an old Mustang and using it as an old pony car. I will also get $y worth of utility out using it as a car. Add them together and the car starts making financial sense.

Replace Mustang with Leaf, replace pony car with electric car.

I guess from that standpoint it works.