Finally, A Prius I Would Drive

[ildd]

Here's an excerpt from an essay I wrote last semester regarding electric cars and their pricing.

The biggest issue with consumers right now is pricing. For some, a very high-quality EV that costs $63,000 is completely out of the question. While the U.S. Government offers a $7,500 rebate for purchasing EVs, the 2013 Smart fortwo electric drive still costs in excess of $17,500; and that’s the cheapest on the U.S. market. Comparably, a gas-powered 2013 Nissan Versa costs $11,900 new, and you can put 3 more people in it and still haul all the groceries. The main reason people buy an EV is to save money at the pump. Well, outlet, for that matter. The fortwo gets the equivalent of 122 MPG in the city, while the Versa can get 26 MPG. Suppose that you drive each car 10,000 miles per year, gas costs $3 per gallon the entire year, and a kilowatt hour (kWh) costs 15 cents. You will have to pay $1,154 in gas for the Versa, and $419 in electric bills for the fortwo per year. So, excluding insurance, repairs, maintenance, etc., the 2 cars will both cost you $20,701 in 7 years and 8 months.

 

[Grayfox]

1.8

That is horrid MPG ratings then.

My 8th gen euro civic is a 1.8 does
34MPG in the city.
39MPG combined
45MPG Highway.

The MPG is UK Gallons but when you convert them it is still better than US.
Are the tests different in the US to justify that much of a change in MPG?

 

[Harry6784]

Here's an excerpt from an essay I wrote last semester regarding electric cars and their pricing.

Excellent data. Over time, the gap between should get shorter and shorter as EV's get cheaper. But when they get cheaper is anyone's guess.

That is horrid MPG ratings then.

My 8th gen euro civic is a 1.8 does
34MPG in the city.
39MPG combined
45MPG Highway.

The MPG is UK Gallons but when you convert them it is still better than US.
Are the tests different in the US to justify that much of a change in MPG?

http://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/2014/?sub=sedan

Maybe you have the coupe version? According to Edmunds, the 2014 Honda Civic Sedan LX should get 28/36.

 

[McLaren]

Here's an excerpt from an essay I wrote last semester regarding electric cars and their pricing.

Car and Driver already wrote your essay, & exposed a flaw in it.

It’s official: There’s no reason to buy the Smart Fortwo. Well, there’s no reason to buy the gasoline version now that the third-generation Smart Fortwo Electric Drive has arrived. This third attempt at electrifying the Smart is perhaps the one that will finally take. It now has a more powerful electric motor, slightly more range, and a price that can potentially undercut that of a Nissan Versa should you qualify for all the government incentives.

Priced from $20,740 if you opt in to Smart’s $80-per-month battery coverage, and sold solely in California and the 10 so-called ZEV states (Maine, Vermont, Connecticut, Oregon, Washington, New York, New Jersey, New Mexico, Rhode Island, and Massachusetts), the Smart electric comes well equipped. You will pay extra for navigation ($1290), metallic paint ($250), and accessories such as a cargo cover ($99), but the base electric is in line with the top-of-the-line Passion Plus gasoline model. Here’s how you get below 10 grand for your purchase price: Find a dealer who will kick in the full $2000 marketing assistance (dealer incentive), then factor in the $7500 federal tax credit and an additional $2500 if you live in California, and you can drive off in a new electric Smart for less than $9000.

For those who don't live in California, that's still $11,240.

Now try your comparison.

 

[ildd]

Question- was that article written before or after December 8th of last year?
Because when I looked at their prices, the pure base model was 25k.

 

[Zenith]

If you have trouble reading a graph, I feel bad for you. Just because something cost more $$, doesn't mean its more expensive.

You honestly believe that a rapidly consumed, limited resource will not increase in price as scarcity increases?

Go take Economics 101, please.

 

[Grayfox]

Excellent data. Over time, the gap between should get shorter and shorter as EV's get cheaper. But when they get cheaper is anyone's guess.



http://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/2014/?sub=sedan

Maybe you have the coupe version? According to Edmunds, the 2014 Honda Civic Sedan LX should get 28/36.

The Euro civic is a hatch back from outer space

 

[Harry6784]

Question- was that article written before or after December 8th of last year?
Because when I looked at their prices, the pure base model was 25k.

Here is the article.

You honestly believe that a rapidly consumed, limited resource will not increase in price as scarcity increases?

Go take Economics 101, please.

Not saying it won't go up, but it hasn't yet. What IS going up is inflation, you can thank the feds for that. Thing about gas is no one really knows how much is left. People have been claiming that the world will run out of fossil fuels in 20 years since the 1950's. But new oil fields are discovered every year. I just hope that when the oil fields DO run out, which obviously they will, that we will have an alternative 👍

 

[Crash]

Comparing used and new isn't absurd at all- when someone goes to buy a car, they aren't going to limit themselves to just new or just used cars, they are going to look for all cars within a price range.

Yes it is absurd. If that's the case, then no one should ever buy new cars. There will always be a used alternative that's a better bang for the buck.

Even if one has $25,000 to spend on a car, they aren't neccessarily going to spend all of their money. If they could choose between a '13 Leaf for $20,000 and an '03 Camry for $6,000, they cheaper, better-performing option would be the Camry.

Oh, oh, I understand. If someone could choose between a Lamborghini and a Camry, then the cheaper, better-performing option would be the Camry. So Lamborghinis are pointless.

Did I do that right?

The only reason to buy the Leaf would be to be eco-friendly, which doesn't sound like something a car enthusiast would want to do.

Vast majority of the world are not car enthusiasts.

 

[Zenith]

Not saying it won't go up, but it hasn't yet. What IS going up is inflation, you can thank the feds for that. Thing about gas is no one really knows how much is left. People have been claiming that the world will run out of fossil fuels in 20 years since the 1950's. But new oil fields are discovered every year. I just hope that when the oil fields DO run out, which obviously they will, that we will have an alternative 👍

Where did I say "run out?"

 

[Slash]

By the time we run out, technology will be so far advanced we will be able to make synthetic's so close to actual crude that it won't even matter anyways.

 

[Harry6784]

Where did I say "run out?"

You didn't.... I was just acknowledging that fossil fuels are a limited resource and an alternative needs to be established.

 

[ildd]

I find it weird I unknowingly did a comparison that had been done 4 months earlier

 

[Azuremen]

If you have trouble reading a graph, I feel bad for you. Just because something cost more $$, doesn't mean its more expensive.

Can we rename this the irony thread, please?

The very graph you've posted shows the price has nearly double per gallon, after adjusting for inflation, in the past ten years alone.

Additionally, other factors will adjust the demand as well, such as the continuing problems of air pollution in relation to using fossil fuels for power. I'm not talking about "oh god, think of the animals" as much as smog that you'd think is fog.

You honestly believe that a rapidly consumed, limited resource will not increase in price as scarcity increases?

Go take Economics 101, please.

He just needs to look at at the graph he posted.

Tricky stuff, graphs, with all their lines and squiggles.

By the time we run out, technology will be so far advanced we will be able to make synthetic's so close to actual crude that it won't even matter anyways.

Physics tells us this will be grossly inefficient.

In case people forgot, combustion engines are only 30 to 40% efficient, while electric motors are already 90% efficient. Adding more middlemen to operating a vehicle just increases the burden and prices across the system.

 

[niky]

If you have trouble reading a graph, I feel bad for you. Just because something cost more $$, doesn't mean its more expensive.

Classic case of cherry picking. Gasoline sales didn't start in 1980, which was right after the Iranian revolution, where oil production dropped drastically and prices shot up.

Now, without relying on oil embargoes (1973 OPEC Embargo) or destruction of existing wells (1979 - Iran, 1990 - Kuwait), the price is going up, up and up. Oil prices have become relatively inelastic and independent of supply and demand.... fueled by commodities speculation and economic worries. Even the collapse of the world economy (2008) only put a temporary dent on the upward trajectory of oil prices.

Right now, the US still has a surplus due to the oil shale finds of recent years and the lack of capacity to ship or pipe that oil elsewhere, but analysis of well outputs show each new well returning more and more marginal numbers... which means higher prices. In fact, the spread between WTI and Brent oil (ergo, US oil and international oil) has very nearly disappeared.

-

TL;DR: Gasoline costs twice as much, inflation adjusted, as it did in the years when no wars interrupted production. If you don't see a problem with that, you're reading the graph wrong.

 

[Joel]

Not saying it won't go up, but it hasn't yet. What IS going up is inflation, you can thank the feds for that. Thing about gas is no one really knows how much is left. People have been claiming that the world will run out of fossil fuels in 20 years since the 1950's. But new oil fields are discovered every year. I just hope that when the oil fields DO run out, which obviously they will, that we will have an alternative 👍

Well no, the point isn't that we'll "run out" of oil, the point is that it'll be harder and harder ($$$) to access and refine into gasoline. We've pretty well found all the petroleum there is and there hasn't been a new discovery of it in ages, once the petroleum's all gone (and there's none left in North America) it gets much more expensive to extract oil.

By the time we run out, technology will be so far advanced we will be able to make synthetic's so close to actual crude that it won't even matter anyways.

No. When we run out of petroleum it's not a matter of whether or not we can make it (we already do, Canada is your largest foreign oil source and it's all refined from oil sands), it's a matter of whether or not it's economical. It costs up to $60-70 a barrel to extract and refine oil from alternative sources in North America (Alberta oil sands, shale oil in Texas). The Saudis can pump it up for a tiny fraction of that cost.

The reality is some day it'll be too expensive to drive internal combustion engine cars relative to electric. Cheap oil in North America is a thing of the past, the crude in Texas is all dried up. There's still lots of oil left here but it's complicated and expensive to produce whether we're talking about oil sands, fracking, or offshore drilling and there's nowhere for prices to go but up.

 

[Grayfox]

Lets not forget the servicing costs and reliability of cars.

New car is less prone to have faults unlike a used car
A nissan leaf serving cost is nearly $0

They just check brake pads, brake fluid, window washer fluid, transmission oil
A used car needs oil, oil filter, brake pads, brake fluid, window washer fluid, power steering fluid, transmission oil

 

[White & Nerdy]

@McLaren I realize you might see some irony of your own in what I said. My reasoning is thus: coolness is almost perfectly synonymous with "machismo". And honestly, straight up cubes has more of an effect on that than interior quality or fussy measurements like specific output. It's like that Corvette I drove last spring - it cost over $50K and the interior might actually have been worse than my Sunbird's (not as solidly built, and also one of the trim pieces was obviously-fake carbon fiber). But it's still a massively cool car and I'd have one in a heartbeat if I could. (Also worth noting are that I could've done without the keyless ignition and the power seats).

 

[Bopop4]

@McLaren I realize you might see some irony of your own in what I said. My reasoning is thus: coolness is almost perfectly synonymous with "machismo". And honestly, straight up cubes has more of an effect on that than interior quality or fussy measurements like specific output. It's like that Corvette I drove last spring - it cost over $50K and the interior might actually have been worse than my Sunbird's (not as solidly built, and also one of the trim pieces was obviously-fake carbon fiber). But it's still a massively cool car and I'd have one in a heartbeat if I could. (Also worth noting are that I could've done without the keyless ignition and the power seats).

 

[McLaren]

@McLaren I realize you might see some irony of your own in what I said. My reasoning is thus: coolness is almost perfectly synonymous with "machismo". And honestly, straight up cubes has more of an effect on that than interior quality or fussy measurements like specific output. It's like that Corvette I drove last spring - it cost over $50K and the interior might actually have been worse than my Sunbird's (not as solidly built, and also one of the trim pieces was obviously-fake carbon fiber). But it's still a massively cool car and I'd have one in a heartbeat if I could. (Also worth noting are that I could've done without the keyless ignition and the power seats).

The good thing about this is that it's your reasoning, & as such, isn't the definitive outline for what is cool.

 

[Joel]

But it's still a massively cool car and I'd have one in a heartbeat if I could. (Also worth noting are that I could've done without the keyless ignition and the power seats).

What about the stereo? Nothing more exemplifies the spirit of machismo than Footloose.

 

[White & Nerdy]

The stereo was fine (and I never heard that song on it), but the auto volume adjuster was designed to troll. When parked, the music would be too quiet, so I'd turn it up, and then as soon as I got up to speed it'd get way too loud. So I'd turn it down. Rinse and repeat. Took me a while to figure out what was happening. I assume that feature is there for when the top is removed, but at that point it wasn't really warm enough to do that, so I kind of wonder why it was even on.

 

[Grayfox]

The stereo was fine (and I never heard that song on it), but the auto volume adjuster was designed to troll. When parked, the music would be too quiet, so I'd turn it up, and then as soon as I got up to speed it'd get way too loud. So I'd turn it down. Rinse and repeat. Took me a while to figure out what was happening. I assume that feature is there for when the top is removed, but at that point it wasn't really warm enough to do that, so I kind of wonder why it was even on.

My car does that.

Volume Speed Scaling

 

[Bopop4]

Which can be adjusted and even turned off.

 

[Grayfox]

Off. Low or High on my car.

 

[White & Nerdy]

I did turn it off, but it took me a while to figure out there even was such a thing. The thought never occurred to me.

 

[Grayfox]

You need to read the manual.

I turned mine on since it was Off from factroy.

 

[Adamgp]

Here is the article.



Not saying it won't go up, but it hasn't yet. What IS going up is inflation, you can thank the feds for that. Thing about gas is no one really knows how much is left. People have been claiming that the world will run out of fossil fuels in 20 years since the 1950's. But new oil fields are discovered every year. I just hope that when the oil fields DO run out, which obviously they will, that we will have an alternative 👍

In the 1900's ol' Hank Ford designed the Model T to run on gas and ethanol because at the time he designed it, the oil experts claimed there was only ~10 years worth of oil left.

 

[Cano]

@McLaren I realize you might see some irony of your own in what I said. My reasoning is thus: coolness is almost perfectly synonymous with "machismo". And honestly, straight up cubes has more of an effect on that than interior quality or fussy measurements like specific output. It's like that Corvette I drove last spring - it cost over $50K and the interior might actually have been worse than my Sunbird's (not as solidly built, and also one of the trim pieces was obviously-fake carbon fiber). But it's still a massively cool car and I'd have one in a heartbeat if I could. (Also worth noting are that I could've done without the keyless ignition and the power seats).

Haha dude, you're like a necesary evil in here. I don't think no one would be able to post such funny stuff not even on purpose!

 

[JMoney]

Yes it is absurd. If that's the case, then no one should ever buy new cars. There will always be a used alternative that's a better bang for the buck.



Oh, oh, I understand. If someone could choose between a Lamborghini and a Camry, then the cheaper, better-performing option would be the Camry. So Lamborghinis are pointless.

Did I do that right?



Vast majority of the world are not car enthusiasts.

No, idiot, the Lambo is the better performing option. And the running cost of a Leaf is not $0; it's runs up the electric bill when you plug it in. I'm going to leave this debate because of the stupidity being presented by my opponents.