FITT - Federation of International Tuners and Test-Drivers

[OdeFinn]

The IDEA is probably sound, HOWEVER, as a tester, who has tested two of the biggest groups we've had in a while(looking over the archives), I dont know how much TIME I am willing to invest.

If you have ready made sheet with let's say THREE different areas for DC, it's just filling a form, areas what are all felt during test drive, good tester uses more than few words per area, but even few words can open a lot for reader i.e. "Handling".

Majority of GTP readers aren't posting a thing, they are just searching information, only if information is good enough they are considering of posting, or pressing "like", probably 90% just "lurks" around without any sign of their presence.

 

[TheInfamousJEW6]

And after "new" scoring this will come harder to see. You have to read between lines more, coz formerly very close to other tune has now bigger leap, even tester wants to "say" at it's nearly 10.0 so it's now 9.9, but not for long.

I can kind of see what you mean, but shouldn't we be discussing the "comments" part of the reviews to address this.

If we want more input on each tune maybe some requirements for the comments could be set in place, like specifically addressing the suspension, lsd, brakes, transmission, and any other variables in each review, plus the overall "feel" of the tune?

Arbitrary numbers don't actually tell me anything, it is just a ranking of sort, where the comments is where I learn about my tune... Just my 2 cents...

 

[shaunm80]

I can kind of see what you mean, but shouldn't we be discussing the "comments" part of the reviews to address this.

If we want more input on each tune maybe some requirements for the comments could be set in place, like specifically addressing the suspension, lsd, brakes, transmission, and any other variables in each review, plus the overall "feel" of the tune?

Arbitrary numbers don't actually tell me anything, it is just a ranking of sort, where the comments is where I learn about my tune... Just my 2 cents...

On that note, in my reviews, I usually try and make reference to most, if not all of these areas of a tune. It is most definitely something I add and I know that a lot of other testers do the same thing too. It is in the rules that testers leave constructive feedback positive or negative blah blah.. you all know the rules for testers by now. This feedback is not a problem in the original format and it won't be an issue in the new guise of DC scoring.

 

[fordracer]

If you have ready made sheet with let's say THREE different areas for DC, it's just filling a form, areas what are all felt during test drive, good tester uses more than few words per area, but even few words can open a lot for reader i.e. "Handling".

Majority of GTP readers aren't posting a thing, they are just searching information, only if information is good enough they are considering of posting, or pressing "like", probably 90% just "lurks" around without any sign of their presence.

"A ready made sheet"?!?! Really?!?! Now your not only "spending" my time....NOW your spending MY MONEY! We, I thought, started to make this process more simple.

 

[OdeFinn]

I can kind of see what you mean, but shouldn't we be discussing the "comments" part of the reviews to address this.

If we want more input on each tune maybe some requirements for the comments could be set in place, like specifically addressing the suspension, lsd, brakes, transmission, and any other variables in each review, plus the overall "feel" of the tune?

Arbitrary numbers don't actually tell me anything, it is just a ranking of sort, where the comments is where I learn about my tune... Just my 2 cents...

I thought at people wanted clearer DC system what prevents "personal attacks" from tuner, @Rotary Junkie mentioned something about DC scoring faults, when you have to give i.e. Three areas DC score and only average is used you have to "LIE" pretty much on all areas, probably bit harder to claim bad things without any truth behind them. This i.e. Three area DC prevents much of personal raids, if you really don't like on any area of car and you give low score on all three you still can do it, will reader believe that is totally different thing when they see what areas of tune tester is saying "bad".

 

[OdeFinn]

"A ready made sheet"?!?! Really?!?! Now your not only "spending" my time....NOW your spending MY MONEY! We, I thought, started to make this process more simple.

Spoiler: Testing/Reviewing Sheet

[b]RUF Sports Class Testing[/b]

@lBt_33
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@xande1959
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@coryclifford
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@randyrockstiff
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@Brewguy44
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@Otaliema
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@joaosoarescso
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@Ale67
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

And this is then just joke..

 

[fordracer]

Spoiler: Testing/Reviewing Sheet

[b]RUF Sports Class Testing[/b]

@lBt_33
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@xande1959
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@coryclifford
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@randyrockstiff
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@Brewguy44
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@Otaliema
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@joaosoarescso
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@Ale67
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

And this is then just joke..

You right. I know nothing. You win. 👍

 

[TheInfamousJEW6]

I thought at people wanted clearer DC system what prevents "personal attacks" from tuner, @Rotary Junkie mentioned something about DC scoring faults, when you have to give i.e. Three areas DC score and only average is used you have to "LIE" pretty much on all areas, probably bit harder to claim bad things without any truth behind them. This i.e. Three area DC prevents much of personal raids, if you really don't like on any area of car and you give low score on all three you still can do it, will reader believe that is totally different thing when they see what areas of tune tester is saying "bad".

The problem is most people don't give out low scores as to not hurt the feelings of other tuners, and if a low score is given it's usually seen as slight towards the tuner, which is unfair.

I am kind of new here, which is why I'm speaking up. This entire organization is an absolute blast to a part of, but watching people start atracking each other over how a tune feels based on an arbitrary number really takes away from the good these competitions accomplish. Taking a wholly different approach, rather than adding more arbitrary numbers may be the way to avoid these attacks on feelings...

 

[shaunm80]

Spoiler: Testing/Reviewing Sheet

[b]RUF Sports Class Testing[/b]

@lBt_33
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@xande1959
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@coryclifford
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@randyrockstiff
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@Brewguy44
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@Otaliema
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@joaosoarescso
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

@Ale67
Best Lap Time -
DC -
Tune Comments -

And this is then just joke..

A joke you say... Is it names on page and nothing else. The design is purely to help out with the scoring sheet and transferring the data to it easier. Saying this is a joke is a little harsh don't you think?

 

[biffa3]

If you have ready made sheet with let's say THREE different areas for DC, it's just filling a form, areas what are all felt during test drive, good tester uses more than few words per area, but even few words can open a lot for reader i.e. "Handling".

Majority of GTP readers aren't posting a thing, they are just searching information, only if information is good enough they are considering of posting, or pressing "like", probably 90% just "lurks" around without any sign of their presence.

I can kind of see what you mean, but shouldn't we be discussing the "comments" part of the reviews to address this.

If we want more input on each tune maybe some requirements for the comments could be set in place, like specifically addressing the suspension, lsd, brakes, transmission, and any other variables in each review, plus the overall "feel" of the tune?

Arbitrary numbers don't actually tell me anything, it is just a ranking of sort, where the comments is where I learn about my tune... Just my 2 cents...

This is fine for the testers that also tune. You only have to read the tuners that test reviews to see that. I am most definatley not one of those. I just drive. I have no idea what changes to suspension. lsd, brakes or transmission would do.

I can tell you how easy it was to get a car into a corner, how easy it was to get it out, how easy it was to get on the go peddle, and how it behaves under braking. I can also tell you how much I enjoyed the tune. I believe we get most of this from the comments section as it is. I would have no idea what to do to a tune to make any of those things better, and i'm not sure a tuner would get anything from a breakdown like that either, as my ratings are subjective.

For example, I may think car A has brilliant handling, great turn in and good under braking. This is for my driving style only. Joe Bloggs may look at my ratings, think i'll give it a go, and think what was this guy talking about, the handling is garbage.

Before I started taking part in FITT quite late on in GT5, I was very much a lurker, but if I wanted to use a tune from a FITT comp, I would first look at lap time, then maybe who drove them, and try to find a match for my driving setup. That's why I like to compare myself with @Lionheart2113 and @shaunm80, because we share similar controller setups.

 

[fordracer]

A joke you say... Is it names on page and nothing else. The design is purely to help out with the scoring sheet and transferring the data to it easier. Saying this is a joke is a little harsh don't you think?[/QUOTE

Its ok, I was baiting him a bit with my last. For that I appoligize.

 

[TheInfamousJEW6]

This is fine for the testers that also tune. You only have to read the tuners that test reviews to see that. I am most definatley not one of those. I just drive. I have no idea what changes to suspension. lsd, brakes or transmission would do.

I can tell you how easy it was to get a car into a corner, how easy it was to get it out, how easy it was to get on the go peddle, and how it behaves under braking. I can also tell you how much I enjoyed the tune. I believe we get most of this from the comments section as it is. I would have no idea what to do to a tune to make any of those things better, and i'm not sure a tuner would get anything from a breakdown like that either, as my ratings are subjective.

For example, I may think car A has brilliant handling, great turn in and good under braking. This is for my driving style only. Joe Bloggs may look at my ratings, think i'll give it a go, and think what was this guy talking about, the handling is garbage.

Before I started taking part in FITT quite late on in GT5, I was very much a lurker, but if I wanted to use a tune from a FITT comp, I would first look at lap time, then maybe who drove them, and try to find a match for my driving setup. That's why I like to compare myself with @Lionheart2113 and @shaunm80, because we share similar controller setups.

I totally agree. I didn't mean to say commenting on specific changes to each category, just addressing the feeling you get from each category. But maybe requiring it goes a little far as I completely understand that not all testers can comment on how and lsd feels, but rather just whether a car is "loose" or "tight" in parts of a corner. As Shaun said the way comments are put forward now should be fine, need'nt be messed with at this stage.

 

[shaunm80]

No worries, It's cool.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

FITT does have a standardized set rules, in them is Rule 13. That was really started all of this, and to protect both sides.

No offense meant here but, @OdeFinn is simply trying to voice his opinion here and is getting the treatment that got this discussion going. We will never all agree, other than to agree to disagree, but lets all keep it civil and not attack one another. Now he is giving some back, understandable, but lets take a breath and try to bring it back to a calm discussion.

If out of line, I will crawl back to my hole.

 

[Lionheart2113]

Arbitrary numbers don't actually tell me anything, it is just a ranking of sort, where the comments is where I learn about my tune... Just my 2 cents...

I can tell you how easy it was to get a car into a corner, how easy it was to get it out, how easy it was to get on the go peddle, and how it behaves under braking. I can also tell you how much I enjoyed the tune. I believe we get most of this from the comments section as it is. I would have no idea what to do to a tune to make any of those things better, and i'm not sure a tuner would get anything from a breakdown like that either, as my ratings are subjective.
Before I started taking part in FITT quite late on in GT5, I was very much a lurker, but if I wanted to use a tune from a FITT comp, I would first look at lap time, then maybe who drove them, and try to find a match for my driving setup.

On that note, in my reviews, I usually try and make reference to most, if not all of these areas of a tune. It is most definitely something I add and I know that a lot of other testers do the same thing too. This feedback is not a problem in the original format and it won't be an issue in the new guise of DC scoring.

This is exactly the point, and is well said. If you want detail, as subjective as they could be interpreted, read the reviews from a variety of testers with different skill levels, and try the tune if you wish.

 

[OdeFinn]

If you have ready made sheet with let's say THREE different areas for DC, it's just filling a form, areas what are all felt during test drive, good tester uses more than few words per area, but even few words can open a lot for reader i.e. "Handling".

A joke you say... Is it names on page and nothing else. The design is purely to help out with the scoring sheet and transferring the data to it easier. Saying this is a joke is a little harsh don't you think?

I don't say it was joke, this form can have few more ready made slots for DC, and it definitely won't take long to fill. I remember my tests on Senna F3, I printed out similar sheet, where was all tunes and clear areas after every tune where I wrote my memos, after testing wrote those memos on similar sheet (provided by compo organizers) and on that point it would be easy to write different areas of tune feelings on ready made slots and give points to all areas

 

[shaunm80]

I don't say it was joke, this form can have few more ready made slots for DC, and it definitely won't take long to fill. I remember my tests on Senna F3, I printed out similar sheet, where was all tunes and clear areas after every tune where I wrote my memos, after testing wrote those memos on similar sheet (provided by compo organizers) and on that point it would be easy to write different areas of tune feelings on ready made slots and give points to all areas

Fair enough. It was just the way your post came across to me. No worries. It's all good.

 

[fordracer]

@OdeFinn, I will spell it out very plain....I do not want another sheet to fill out,(or buy the note book required to do it),
I do not want to spend more time on the paperwork of the testing. I don't want to have to grade the aspects of the car I don't I am still learning and not completely comfortable with. And the bottom line is.....if I don't want to, I'm not going to. If that means I never test again....so be it. (notice the lack of testers lately?) I think there is quite a few folks that feel this way. I am tired of tuners questioning the DC results. I don't care how fast your car goes, I still don't have to like it. I will explain why to the BEST of my ability. If I can't....I still don't have to like it. Tuner doesn't like the DC score..guess what...I'm the tester and you can't tell me what to like. And any one who doesn't like that....here's a thought.....TEST.

 

[OdeFinn]

@OdeFinn, I will spell it out very plain....I do not want another sheet to fill out,(or buy the note book required to do it),
I do not want to spend more time on the paperwork of the testing. I don't want to have to grade the aspects of the car I don't I am still learning and not completely comfortable with. And the bottom line is.....if I don't want to, I'm not going to. If that means I never test again....so be it. (notice the lack of testers lately?) I think there is quite a few folks that feel this way. I am tired of tuners questioning the DC results. I don't care how fast your car goes, I still don't have to like it. I will explain why to the BEST of my ability. If I can't....I still don't have to like it. Tuner doesn't like the DC score..guess what...I'm the tester and you can't tell me what to like. And any one who doesn't like that....here's a thought.....TEST.

Understand what you say, I'm trying to get this fitt thing to serve bigger audience.
For quick tunes and things like that I'll search for "seasonal TT tunes", and those speeds can be confirmed from ranking list. But from fitt I'm expecting lot more, federation of international test drivers and tuners.

I have provided few tunes for few different aliens, not for seasonal TT and those aren't just fifteen minutes throw values and go, those can take several days of fine tuning from feedback of driver and watching replays of practises to find flaws in tune, hunting some feedback from driver, driving lot of laps in "testing"purposes, checking different car reactions on different situation, different fuel load, different tire condition etc.. It really takes time, I know.
When tested those F3 tunes I really spent time on it, even on tunes what I "didn't like", I wanted to "break down" reasons why it handles as it handles. When giving review there was lot of more information what to write, but not "place" for it.
If I go on track and owner of car wants feedback of it he defines what areas are first in his mind, then starts free feedback. On fitt there can be ready made questions for tune, and when you go and test tune you already know those areas what you are asked to review, filling those on form isn't big deal.probably less asked than giving only free feedback of overall car. But doesn't exclude free feedback.

 

[Motor City Hami]

I thought at people wanted clearer DC system what prevents "personal attacks" from tuner, @Rotary Junkie mentioned something about DC scoring faults, when you have to give i.e. Three areas DC score and only average is used you have to "LIE" pretty much on all areas, probably bit harder to claim bad things without any truth behind them. This i.e. Three area DC prevents much of personal raids, if you really don't like on any area of car and you give low score on all three you still can do it, will reader believe that is totally different thing when they see what areas of tune tester is saying "bad".

It would also be nice if we could eliminate tester bias too. The ability still exists for the tester to provide a "personal attack" toward a tuner that they do not like. It is really simple to spot these reviews when they differ wildly from ALL of the other reviews on one tune. Any thoughts on how to eliminate tester bias?

 

[OdeFinn]

It would also be nice if we could eliminate tester bias too. The ability still exists for the tester to provide a "personal attack" toward a tuner that they do not like. It is really simple to spot these reviews when they differ wildly from ALL of the other reviews on one tune. Any thoughts on how to eliminate tester bias?

Actually there was typo on my post, it should say personal attacks from tester.. Lol..

That breaking DC to few different areas is eliminating lot of false personal attacks, of course anyone can drive slower or similar biased behaviour, but when you explain your DC on few areas it's hard to mask lies there. Number and reason for number.

I.e. If real car reviews are just stating Good car or Bad car is freaking hard to understand why. If reviewer is saying car as bad because no automatic available will consumer understand his biased opinion of car. If there is scoring for transmission and one reviewer gives 5 points and other 9 points you can't understand why. But with number/reason/opinion it's fairly clear to all and some personal opinion about manual gears is easily tolerated.

 

[TheInfamousJEW6]

It would also be nice if we could eliminate tester bias too. The ability still exists for the tester to provide a "personal attack" toward a tuner that they do not like. It is really simple to spot these reviews when they differ wildly from ALL of the other reviews on one tune. Any thoughts on how to eliminate tester bias?

Unfortunately I don't think it's possible. We are all humans with our own opinions, and we all tend to form biases, good or bad, towards the others in these groups. It cannot be helped as it is human nature.

The only possibility would be blind testing, meaning you do not know who's tune you are driving, only a number or a letter. And even that may not work all the time as sometimes you can tell by the way a car is set up who could possibly be the tuner...

Maybe it would be best to just have a no tolerance policy for anything accusatory... If you want to accuse or have an issue with a tune or score it should ALWAYS be handled via PM and any violators should be immediately removed from the competition...

And the problem with that is then more peolle would become afraid of voicing their opinions, which isn't fair either... Maybe we all just need to toughen up a bit and not let little disputes turn into all out wars. Words have meanings that can hurt feelings, and when typing emotion is hard to perceive...

 

[biffa3]

It would also be nice if we could eliminate tester bias too. The ability still exists for the tester to provide a "personal attack" toward a tuner that they do not like. It is really simple to spot these reviews when they differ wildly from ALL of the other reviews on one tune. Any thoughts on how to eliminate tester bias?

Best way to do this is blind testing. It's been done before and worked really well.

It's also a lot of work for the hosts, and whilst it's been mentioned about encouraging testers, we also need to encourage hosts.

 

[fordracer]

Understand what you say, I'm trying to get this fitt thing to serve bigger audience.
For quick tunes and things like that I'll search for "seasonal TT tunes", and those speeds can be confirmed from ranking list. But from fitt I'm expecting lot more, federation of international test drivers and tuners.

I have provided few tunes for few different aliens, not for seasonal TT and those aren't just fifteen minutes throw values and go, those can take several days of fine tuning from feedback of driver and watching replays of practises to find flaws in tune, hunting some feedback from driver, driving lot of laps in "testing"purposes, checking different car reactions on different situation, different fuel load, different tire condition etc.. It really takes time, I know.
When tested those F3 tunes I really spent time on it, even on tunes what I "didn't like", I wanted to "break down" reasons why it handles as it handles. When giving review there was lot of more information what to write, but not "place" for it.
If I go on track and owner of car wants feedback of it he defines what areas are first in his mind, then starts free feedback. On fitt there can be ready made questions for tune, and when you go and test tune you already know those areas what you are asked to review, filling those on form isn't big deal.probably less asked than giving only free feedback of overall car. But doesn't exclude free feedback.

I understand your point, do you understand mine? I went back through the archives, I only saw where you tested one class in the last year. I have done 5 of the last 8. And one of them was 34 cars. The M Challenge was a big event also. Time IS a consideration, and it offends ME that you pass it off so lightly! You want to serve a bigger audience, then attract a bigger participation group. How to do that? Simplify first! Best place to start? YOUR butt in the seat! You feel this strongly about all this, then I EXPECT to see YOUR name at the next event in the TESTER column.

 

[TheInfamousJEW6]

Actually there was typo on my post, it should say personal attacks from tester.. Lol..

That breaking DC to few different areas is eliminating lot of false personal attacks, of course anyone can drive slower or similar biased behaviour, but when you explain your DC on few areas it's hard to mask lies there. Number and reason for number.

I.e. If real car reviews are just stating Good car or Bad car is freaking hard to understand why. If reviewer is saying car as bad because no automatic available will consumer understand his biased opinion of car. If there is scoring for transmission and one reviewer gives 5 points and other 9 points you can't understand why. But with number/reason/opinion it's fairly clear to all and some personal opinion about manual gears is easily tolerated.

You are not wrong in your opinion, but as has been said I think making the test process even more complicated and time consuming will drive more people away from testing... Which is not anyones goal here... We want more involvement from average Joe's, which I say I am myself. The more complicated and time consuming we make it the less I will want ro be involved, as I already have limited time to enjoy this game and forum!

 

[biffa3]

Just a quick question for the founder members of FITT, which may only get answered by @Motor City Hami, as I think he's the only one still around.

Where and why did the concept of DC first arise. Has it always been in place or was there a specific reason for it's inclusion?

And a general question for all tuners. What do you get out of a DC rating?

 

[TheInfamousJEW6]

Just a quick question for the founder members of FITT, which may only get answered by @Motor City Hami, as I think he's the only one still around.

Where and why did the concept of DC first arise. Has it always been in place or was there a specific reason for it's inclusion?

And a general question for all tuners. What do you get out if a DC rating?

The only thing I get out of a DC score is a chance at a podium finish, as my tunes are not generally "hot lap" tunes, and are not usually the fastest for everyone... But DC does serve that purpose well!

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Just a quick question for the founder members of FITT, which may only get answered by @Motor City Hami, as I think he's the only one still around.

Where and why did the concept of DC first arise. Has it always been in place or was there a specific reason for it's inclusion?

And a general question for all tuners. What do you get out if a DC rating?

Tells where your tunes stand on an enjoyment and ease of use basis. As you know, my tunes generally do better on time than DC, tho I actually do ok on DC. Sometimes too stable or safe, but generally fast, some testers like them a bit wilder than I tend to build. I like getting their comments, but refuse to change may style to suit.

 

[fordracer]

Tells where your tunes stand on an enjoyment and ease of use basis. As you know, my tunes generally do better on time than DC, tho I actually do ok on DC. Sometimes too stable or safe, but generally fast, some testers like them a bit wilder than I tend to build. I like getting their comments, but refuse to change may style to suit.

same here.

 

[joaosoarescso]

I been following this conversation quite awhile and this is going nowhere, the "new" scoring system is fine, the part to separate the DC is to much. If it worked up to this place why change it.

I don't have the patience to sit all day long sitting testing car after car after car and filling in those "parameter"

Someone is over thinking this whole thing

There's only 1 way to show if this new separated dc thing works and its by doing it yourself in the next fitt challenge