Flaws of the tyre model simulation

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Lord Protector, Feb 3, 2018.

  1. JacksHerer

    JacksHerer

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    :D that's why I'm thinking I need launch control to give the game a better representation.
     
  2. cleanLX

    cleanLX

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    I'm not going to argue that there is something very wrong in game regarding the way the cars behave when the rear tires are spinning.
    It's absolutely dreadful and does not relate to the real world at all... combine that with a jacked up throttle rate... and here we are.

    Now, the video with the "prototype"...
    Watch any racing on the tv, or live, and watch cars spin out in high gear and get into the throttle... best place to see this more than once in a blue moon is NASCAR... 800hp cars going backwards at 180+mph still in high gear and smoking the tires. Once you get tires spinning they are easy to keep spinning. Tires (radials) do not recover well from a spin, they tend to want to continue to spin. BiasPly slicks on the other hand recover very well from a spin situation. Watch victory burnouts of NASCAR folks, 3rd gear, rears at about 120mph car at about 40mph, they spin it around and go backwards all while the rear tires roast.

    Now, the video with the Supra...
    Having driven an 850hp/900tq ('91 Mustang, single turbo, 316cu.in http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/mdfp-0608-1991-mustang-gt/ numbers quoted for the article were daily driver 89octane tune, real numbers were kept quiet due to grudge racing action) car in real life, on drag radials, it would haze the tires at the top of 4th gear around 140mph on an un-prep'd surface, so, on "sports soft it should do so even more easily (well lit freeway entrance ramp, 2am, no other cars in sight, stupid, yes, I know).

    I have a great deal of respect for @Scaff but the videos he posts are not true to real life regardless of "game". Of the 3, the Ford was most realistic as the rev limit gear change (~20mph) immediately resulted in wheelspin. Even in a low hp car this is true... My '85 Mazda GLC (~70hp) would roast the fronts all thru 2nd gear... IF, I first got them spinning from a clutch dump in 1st gear then went to second long before mph was high enough to counter the wheels speed to pave differential.
    I have no experience with the Volvo used for real world comparison, but would be willing to bet that even with TC disabled, it is still "on". My Wrangler is this way and I believe most modern vehicles are. In that real world video it appears the car reaches near it's max mph in 1st gear (~30mph) before going to 2nd... try that again with the fronts spinning at 5000rpm and shift hard/fast into 2nd gear at about 15mph and if there is actually no TC on, and it has the power, it'll lite the tires up instantly and hit the limiter straight after the gear change.
    I can do this all day in my '92 Mustang... however if I let the mph get up to where it should be and go to second the tire spin upon gear change is no where near what is is doing the other method (spinning tires, low mph gear change) and I am in no fear of hitting the limiter straight away.

    In short, I have no debate that the tire model is whacked and needs work, but, the videos posted are not conclusive to indicating such... at least in my experience/observations.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  3. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    The TC does go off in the Volvo (I know as it's my car and I've worked in the industry long enough to know the difference), it's also not the only car I've experienced it with ( including a good number in the past without any form of TC).

    GTS is simply not acting correctly in this area at all.
     
  4. cleanLX

    cleanLX

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    Thank you sir, again, much respect.
    I agree that there is very much something not correct in game with acceleration and tire spin under acceleration.
    My '92 street/strip Mustang (425hp, 3000lbs -essentially, a tuned for the street factory stock motor) is much easier to control under acceleration and under tire spin than anything in game.

    My Wrangler (not a Volvo) I can turn TC off, but, the only way to truly defeat TC is to install a physical break/switch to cut the electronics to the computer. Loose terminology, but, being in the industry you know what I'm talking about. Anyways, I made an "assumption" based on that.
     
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  5. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

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    There is a clutch feature even with DS4. If you hold the brake and bring the revs up to about 1000-2000 less than redline, the cars will slowly pull away fro a standing start while the clutch slips. I find it somewhat useful for standing start races because I don;t just sit and spin when I nail the throttle.
     
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  6. Lord Protector

    Lord Protector

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    yeah same goes for wheels when not using clutch :) apply little throttle and you go nowhere :)
     
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  7. Ryan Dungey

    Ryan Dungey

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    So I thought I would do a little test with the McLaren 650s on sports soft which would be closest to the tyres it has in real life. The 0-60 in real life is between the 2.9 and 3.3 sec Mark, I was able to pull off 0-60 in 3.2 seconds. Will try another car in a moment something like the la ferrari. I was using TCS on 1.
     
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  8. Armand Manga

    Armand Manga

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    Yeah much like AMG's race start feature
     
  9. xBSxChadSpeed

    xBSxChadSpeed

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    I’m with you on this. I think the lateral is good, cars feel good. They may get loose a bit too easy under throttle but that could be the same reason they all spin the tires when launching so bad. This is on area FM has it pretty decent. Always been an issue in GT, but hopefully it can be fixed at some point. For the most part it hasn’t hurt the game for me too bad, just something we have to deal with.
     
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  10. Armand Manga

    Armand Manga

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    Scaff my man.... what's your take in GT's suspension model? More specifically with the job of the shocks. I made a post about this recently in another thread (i'll for it once i get off work). I essentially said that the cars take a set far too quickly/do not oscillate under load... this reminds me of a Mercedes S63amg i drove a few years ago, it feels artificial and unnatural/inaccurate when it comes to racing. This is why even the race cars tend to feel too smooth in the game.
     
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  11. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

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    As I mentioned early on, we all (this forum and then some) complained about the grip levels in GT5 and GT6. The tire model in both those cases appearing to be one of solid rubber and the grip being too great, at least from a play stand point. It appears to me that in GTS, grip is reduced on purpose to address that demand.

    As I mentioned, when I played GT6 again recently, the sport hard of GT6 tires seemed to be the equal to racing hard in GTS. Maybe it was just that one case, but one step or two seems about right. in 2016, there was a bunch of racing rooms that went to SS tires for race cars rather than RH because they felt better and behaved better.

    I'm curious, and I'm sorry if this was done and I just missed it, but do all the finding hold up when a few stickier steps of tire are swapped for the test vehicles?

    As we all (should) know, there are a myriad of parameters that can be set in a computer simulation of any type and it would be a surprise to me if there weren't adjustment (behind the scenes) to the various aspects of the tire in GTS. Fr instance, a lateral grip modifier that is separate from a longitudinal grip modifier, a tire flex modifier, etc.

    Back when they changed the grip in November, I was shocked by the gain, but now that I am accustomed to it, it seems fine. However, comparing to other games, I wonder what adjustment can be made in upcoming updates.

    I would love to see what is available behind the scenes because it's so hard to tell from play alone. A good tire model can feel terrible if set improperly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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  12. JacksHerer

    JacksHerer

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    lol I was trying not to nail the throttle, I started off trying 3000rpm but then forgot all sense as I tried harder until I got desperate, it was far from scientific ahem
    I was also worrying about my snail like reaction when I held the brake.
    I'm glad @Ryan Dungey has managed to do a realistic comparison time, I think I would be better testing the samba lol
     
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  13. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    The problem wasn't the grip levels, just the in-game labels on the tires. There is very little that's realistic about the various tire grades in the GT series. Most road cars don't have a choice of 9 different tire compounds. I always viewed the tire compound names as completely arbitrary which is what they are. They aren't replicating 9 real tires, it's the same tire with 9 different grip multipliers applied. Comfort Soft is just a % of the grip of Sport Medium. Drop down a tire grade and most cars in GT5 and GT6 felt about right. Comfort Softs on the 458 Italia made the car much more lively and fun, for example. It's not like in other games where you pull out your supercar and slap on some Pirelli Trofeo R's and they are trying to replicate the exact behaviour and grip levels of those tires in their much more complicated tire models. In that case you have something real and definite to compare it to. I don't think any tire manufacturer makes a tire called a Comfort Medium:lol:
     
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  14. Voodoovaj

    Voodoovaj

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    I agree. They are still doing that. One tire with various grip. I wonder which one is the baseline tire.
     
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  15. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    My take on it is that it hasn't improved significantly from GT5.

    The issues with dampers is that they are just too damn good, and as you say recover far too quickly. Some cars are exceedingly well damped in reality, and its mainly the older cars on track that demonstrate this as an issue (the Samba bus being a good example) in the same way that no older car seems to be running period rubber.

    However its not just that all cars have been fitted with the best money can buy dampers, as the recovery from jumps, even on rally spec cars is just too good.

    Compare these jumps and landings in GTS......





    ...with just about any jump and landing in this...




    Even with WRC spec dampers the cars have a very small recovery phase (extension, compression, small extension back to normal, done) and this seems to be missing from GTS (extension, compression, done).
     
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  16. GTWelsh

    GTWelsh Premium

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    Might see if I can gain some reality from it by reducing the compression damping down to the minimum so in theory it should spring back up a bit, but I doubt it will gleam anything note worthy, just flaws in the logic I'm sure.
     
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  17. cleanLX

    cleanLX

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    Never going to get a compression/rebound only shock to perform like a real world performance shock.
    We have compression, and rebound... is that high speed? or low speed? or a compromise? We do not have bottom out adjustment, oil weight choices, air pressure choices, volume reducers etc etc. much less shim adjust ability.
     
  18. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    Other games have dramatically more complicated damper tuning so it's possible to simulate much more than PD does. Don't think this is the game for that, but it is possible.
     
  19. cleanLX

    cleanLX

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    Don't know about other games, but, outside of rally, which seems the community is not a fan of, and the Nords, full shock tuning really isn't needed for this game in my opinion... which goes to your statement... so, agree'd.
     
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  20. Armand Manga

    Armand Manga

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    I hear you.
    But never did we imply that we wanted to tackle every single aspect of shock tuning.
    All we're saying is suspension behavior in the game is off/ too good/ unatural and i dare even say almost arcadey.
    If being 100% i'm honest, in GTS i don't feel too much of a difference in body control when adjusting the shocks. Whereas in Forza for example, you can stiffen up the springs really hard and put low damping values only for the car to oscillate uncontrollably. PD should have no excuse giving us that level of control. The only time i feel the shocks is when i fine tune the understeer/oversteer balance of my cars as a last resort.
     
  21. Matty28

    Matty28

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    I've noticed the crazy slow launches. In the training mode I have breezed gold first time in every scenario except the first ones which involve launching in which I can barely achieve silver after many attempts.

    I have also noticed when doing burnouts or donuts or drifting the spinning tyres instantly lose like 80% of their grip unlike in other games, there's no progression to it. I can't do a donut and use the throttle and steering to powerslide away I have to fully lift off.

    Also when braking to a stop the cars often do this weird slide just before stopping as if I'm hitting ice.

    Road cars fell weird all the time as well. They feel like they are sliding all the time and are really slow to respond to input. Driving a Huracan feels like driving a Scania.

    It all feels like it simply lacks so much detail that it is not capable of accurately stimulating losing grip.
     
  22. DatNoiseV12

    DatNoiseV12

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    Agreed with OP. It's like the game can't decide how much grip the tires need to have and goes from 'nothing, nothing, nothing' to 'ok let's go'. Almost no progression and It feels very weird when launching cars, especially FF, or in quite a few low speed instances (Gr. B on rally tracks is one of the worst, you expect the tires to start biting the surface and give you grip, but nothing instead. Like ice).
     
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  23. Sander 001

    Sander 001

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    Grip is low but lap times match because I think the in game gravity is too low. The low gravity is apparent when there are more severe inclines/declines. And going over kerbs. Race cars in real life are never upset by kerbing as much as they are in GT Sport.

    Mess about slowly on the banks of an oval and see the ridiculousness that happens. Or get airborne on the dunes of Willow Springs. The cars float in the air almost as if you’re playing the moon rover missions in GT6.
     
  24. Rinsky

    Rinsky Premium

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    Don't forget getting airborne when running over an orange cone. I've ran over several of these in my life on purpose and it never even came close to upsetting the car much less getting airborne.
     
  25. Sharpie

    Sharpie

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    Tire model is so bad that I took supra put Rss tire and do some drifting it was perfect.
     
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  26. Lord Protector

    Lord Protector

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    I wish PD wanted to address this :indiff: it seems to me like they are satisfied with the way it works right now

    Yeah but laptimes don't really match mate... Just try going around nurburgring, there is a lot of official laptimes as a reference
     
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  27. Lord Protector

    Lord Protector

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    Is there anyone willing to share information about the new tire model?
     
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  28. Mirror_man

    Mirror_man

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    For what I´ve read around the Forum, so far... there´s no change... :(
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
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  29. suprajef

    suprajef Premium

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    It still sucks
     
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  30. Snake55wildcat

    Snake55wildcat

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    It seems like it isnt implemented in this update, PD had said as such after the Nurb event earlier this month though so i'd say to wait for June or July for it to properly be implemeneted.
     
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