Flaws of the tyre model simulation

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Lord Protector, Feb 3, 2018.

  1. Blindside92

    Blindside92

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    Has there been any fix or improvements to this in the recent update(s) this month?

    This and the non-linear throttle trigger/pedal input (may sound like a minor detail but it’s such a simple thing that adds +1000% frustration&difficulty with accelerator modulation in high powered cars in GT) are the main things holding me back from buying this game still. Played the demo back before release and the game has its plus points, but yeah, waiting to see.
     
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  2. golfer07840

    golfer07840

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    For me, personally, I step on the pedal a certain amount, the car goes a certain speed. I gradually press all the way down, the car goes as fast as it's going to go. If I step lightly, the car only accelerates gradually. Granted, I'm not a technician or mechanic or engineer, but for me personally, I think the way the pedal is set up is fine.

    As for Tires, there was no mention of it in the update notes yesterday.
     
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  3. VBR

    VBR Premium

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    What the heck is wrong with the tyre model in this game! Was just driving (trying to drive) the 458 Italia on Suzuka & the tyres just keep spinning up, even in 4th gear; WTF!!! That car was an utter joy to drive in GT5 & GT6, what has PD done! Sure, I expect some wheel spin in 2nd gear, but not in 4th. The car won't go round a bend at high speed unless it's in 5th gear. I am completely baffled. I did 2 races on Suzuka, & don't want to drive that car (or anything in GT Sport) ever again.

    :confused: :banghead: :boggled: :crazy: :( :sick: :irked: :mad: :mischievous: :ouch: :rolleyes: :tdown: :yuck: :grumpy:
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2018
  4. Corsa

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    I'd share an honest opinion of it all, Tires, FFB, Physics, FOV but it would just be frowned upon so I'll move along quietly.
     
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  5. Lord Protector

    Lord Protector

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    Same feelings here... I used to have so much fun just driving any car in GT6, pushing the limits was very satisfying, but in GT Sport I find the cars' handling to be extremely boring and I have no motivation playing the game, other than FiA races.
     
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  6. BLiTZ

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    All the tyres have less grip in GT Sport. Put racing super softs on a stock Skyline GT-R and it still drifts like crazy.

    The problem as I see it, is PD are caving in to the 'Sim Crowd' who seem to kick up a fuss when cars in games actually grip.
     
  7. BigJimmy

    BigJimmy

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    Try putting Race tyres on the front and comfort tyres on the rear of an FF car. It wont go in a straight line at even at 30mph with light throttle. Is that realistic?
     
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  8. barkohba

    barkohba

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    Yes, just did it and it goes in a straight line with no problem, and I actually did this amazing feat at 30 km/h. Managed to do accomplish this MILESTONE weven with comfort soft tires (on the front). If you're spinning constantly and cannot go straight at 30 mph (which is nearly 50 km/h), there must be something VERY VERY wrong with your setup.
     
  9. BigJimmy

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    Im also fine with comfort tyres on the front as well. That wasnt the point of my post. With RH tyres on the front and CS tyres on the back in a clio it was like the back wheels had been replaced with casters.
     
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  10. barkohba

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    Yeah but i did initially test with CS on the back and it was fine. The only issue (on brands hatch, and this was with the megane) is that the back end (naturally) would slip out when cornering on fast corners (much like the clio cup races, in case you checked any videos out). That's why I was saying it's strange what you described. Then I put CS on the front and with TC on 1 it was fine, but TC on 0 it did slip a quite a bit before gaining traction. However if you check any videos online on Megane RS "dirty launches" (FF burnouts) you'll see that that car at least has quite a bit of torque, and when engaging RS mode (TC OFF), the front really slips A LOT before gainig traction (unless you modulate the throttle, as you should).

    Noit saying the whell phisics at very low speed is good in GTS. Up until 15-20 KM/H it does feel like it way too much slippery and then after 20km/h it snaps right back into grip, "transforming" into a more realistic tire. Hopefully that will be fixed with the new tire model. This behavior is observed generally with any car above 200-250 HP, be them front or real wheel drive. Lower powered cars seem to handle from 0km/h realistically. So there's an issue with the tire model when the tires are fed above a set amount of torque.
     
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  11. Sharpie

    Sharpie

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    Like fiat 500 and sambabus that is how car should behave.
     
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  12. PirovacBoy

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    :odd: I‘d say sometimes it’s more like a lottery :lol:
     
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  13. Lord Protector

    Lord Protector

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    I do not like lottery.
     
  14. VBR

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    @Lord Protector - As somebody pointed out before in this thread, we had a similar but opposite problem in GT5; the default tryes of most cars had way too much grip (& dulled the physics model as a result). Just out of interest, here are two links to your predecessors thread about it;


    The OP: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/tire-testing-strange-but-interesting-results.160821/

    Most important post in the thread imho: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...nteresting-results.160821/page-3#post-4638146


    I was initially very disappointed with GT5, however, after following Calan's method for choosing tyres I started to have fun with the game. Maybe we can find a similar work around for GTS, or maybe PD will improve the tyre model with an update...


    :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
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  15. VBR

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    Been testing with the Ferrari 458 Italia on Suzuka, & here are my first impressions & findings. Please note that I'm only testing untuned road cars, with the aim of trying to find a way of fixing some of the tyre issues without resorting to tuning. This is because I'd like to race them online in Tuning Prohibited lobbies at some point in the future.


    Initially, I thought that the 2nd gear ratio was way too short on the 458, but when I fitted grippier tyres it went back to normal. The tyre model is so bad that I didn't even realise it was supposed to be simulating wheel spin, it just felt like a short gear ratio!

    Even with hard race tyres all round, the back end still steps out in 3rd gear when cornering. The only solution I've found to this is to fit SM to the front & R1 to the rear on the 458, this balances out some of the flaws in the tyre model. I kept going up a tyre compound & retesting until the sliding rear in 3rd & 4th all but disappeared, but didn't go beyond that as the car still needs to retain it's character (which it does imho). I went up 1 compound on the front as well to get rid of some of the typical GT oversteer.

    Traction control set to 1 solves all of the wheel spin in 1st gear for grid starts, & I also noticed that the traction control never kicks in at any point after this no matter how hard I push or slide the car on the SM/R1 set up. So, I'm leaving TC on 1. If that bothers you, use TC merely as Launch Control & then turn it off once the race has started.


    I think the solution for now for RWD cars is to fit grippier tyres on the rear, & less grippier tyres on the front, completely ignoring any prejudice we may have from previous GT titles regarding the "Racing Soft Brigade". Test it by going up 1 compound at a time on the rear until the problem disappears, then go up one compound at a time on the front only if there are any understeer problems. However, make sure that the front is at least 1 compound lower than the rear, otherwise the sliding issue in 3rd & 4th may return. You'll probably have to reverse this method for FWD cars. I haven't even tried 4WD yet...



    EDIT: I also noticed that loading the front tyres by coming off the throttle a little, or even fully engine breaking through the esses had little to no effect on understeer (with the default S1/S1 tyres). Something is very wrong with the tyre model here too, as it doesn't seem to be simulating longitudinal loading all that well. More testing is needed...
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2018
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  16. Sharpie

    Sharpie

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    think the solution for now for RWD cars is to fit grippier tyres on the rear, & less grippier tyres on the front, well that helps but it's not going to cut the mustard :)
     
  17. Haitauer

    Haitauer

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    For all the testers and players here - are you tuning your suspension or using stock or bop setups? I think that makes a huge difference in grip and behavior of the cars.

    I my self just would like to see more grippy stock/bop setups used. Doesnt correct the defect but moves the problem aside. As the problem seems to be breaking/regaining the grip, the longer you are able to hold the grip the longer you are not affected by the problem.

    I think they're just not able to mimic rubber one of the weirdest substances to mimic agains the laws of physics. :lol:
     
  18. Lord Protector

    Lord Protector

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    Thanks for your input! :)

    I already know that fitting grippier tyres on the rear somehow improves the driving experience, however it doesn't fix the problem because as soon as the rear loses grip the problem appears.

    What I found is that driving a slow car like Miata on Comfort Soft tyres feel kind of realistic to me and as the tyres get better (SH-SM-SS-RI-RH-RM-RS) the difference between grip and no-grip increases. Like it is not that hard to counter-steer and drift Miata on CS tyres (even easier on CH) but try doing it on SS (with more power) and you will see what I mean. It's like there is only one type of "no-grip" grip for all set of tyres.

    And as far as the 458 goes, I just drove the car in GT6 few days ago and man, the car is pure joy to drive on the edge in the game. The way rear slides out of corners but it is manageable is awesome.
     
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  19. VBR

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    @Lord Protector with R1 on the rear (SM front) on the 458 the problem doesn't seem to occur, try it for yourself & see. When I tried SS on the rear, & S1 on the front, the problem returned.

    @Sharpie I wasn't trying to solve the problem entirely, that can't be done, but just to make it feel less crap, which it did (for me at least anyway).
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2018
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  20. Lord Protector

    Lord Protector

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    Well, yeah the spinning problem does not occur but then the car has unrealistically fast cornering speed, does it not?
     
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  21. VBR

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    No, not so much with SM on the front, there's still mild understeer there. If you leave S1 on the front you'll have even less "unrealistically fast cornering speed". Putting R1 on the rear isn't about making it corner faster, but more about trying to cover up some of the tyre model issues.

    Don't knock it till you've tried it.


    :tup:
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2018
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  22. Lord Protector

    Lord Protector

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    I don't knock it I just think it will make the car suffer from heavy understeer. I'll try today thanks.
     
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  23. VBR

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    The car already suffers from heavy understeer, & with S1/R1 it will be exaggerated as the rear won't come round that often to compensate. That said, you'll still get oversteer in 2nd gear when coming out of a tight corner with lots of throttle.


    Try these combos on Suzuka;

    S1/S1 - Wheel spin in 2nd gear feels like a short ratio. Car lets go in 3rd & 4th in high speed bends.

    S1/S3 - Wheel spin in 2nd gear still feels like a short ratio, but the car doesn't let go in 4th gear as much.

    S1/R1 - 2nd gear feels normal now, car doesn't let go in 3rd or 4th, but there seems to be more understeer.

    S2/R1 - Understeer feels better now, 2nd gear feels better, doesn't let go in 3rd or 4th gear, but rear still steps out in 2nd gear.


    Like I already said; this isn't gong to solve any tyre problems, just cover them up some. It's not perfect, but imo is better than suffering the 458 losing the rear end half the time, which makes it all but unraceable in stock form.


    Here are two reference videos. I know it's the Spider in both, but it's the closest I could find.






    :tup:
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2018
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  24. VBR

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    Been testing the BMW M4 tonight, & what an utter joy that thing is to drive (once I applied my tyre choice method of course). The problems were almost identical to the Ferrari 458, & so were the solutions; but with the exception of Traction Control.

    Conclusion: the best tyre combo for this car imho is SM on the front & R1 on the rear, with TC set to Off.

    Because the FFB in GT Sport is so awful with a wheel, I've switched to using the DS4. The implementation of the steering & Dual Shock effects are the best I've ever felt. I was driving it on the Nord Tourist at Twilight, in cockpit view, with no HUD, Race Sound Effects set at 150, engine noise & tyre squeal turned all the way down to -5 (to accentuate the wind/road/car rattle & banging noises), & my TV was up loud. AND OH MY DAYS IT WAS GLORIOUS! :D The replay looked so beautiful that I wanted to cry... :drool:


    :bowdown:
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2018
  25. VBR

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    Been testing again, & you were absolutely right about the heavy understeer. I was having a problem with my wheel where the linearity around the centre was off, & couldn't work out why. I was having to turn the wheel more than in any other game I'd used before. Tried lots of different settings, all to no avail. Then I figured out that it wasn't a linearity issue at all but was in fact understeer, however, I couldn't feel it at all because the FFB in GT Sport is so bad at replicating understeer!

    First of all I thought that the 458 had a very short 2nd gear ratio, but it was actually caused by wheel spin that didn't even feel like wheel spin. Then my wheel's linearity felt off, but it was actually understeer that doesn't feel like understeer. My current conclusion is that the tyre model & FFB are FUBAR!

    I've been driving AWD cars now & they seem to be all but immune to these issues. I'm just gonna stick to them, & hope against hope that these problems can be fixed.


    :(
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2018
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  26. Lord Protector

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    I'm glad there are other people that notice the horrdendous tire model. 4wd cars are a bit better obviously but still, try driving a heavy tuned skyline... drives out of corners like crab - sideways.
     
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  27. VBR

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    Fortunately, I seem to be impervious to the "sacred cow effect" (at least regarding GT games). ;)


    Don't drive tuned cars, or race cars, only stock cars. The only AWD car I've driven with my wheel is the 96 Evo, & that is an absolute blast to drive totally stock. Have been doing Custom Races with all fantasy penalties off, damage on Heavy, & full grids starting from the back on real world tracks (no HUD & in car view too). Gonna start adding success ballast soon as the AI are still too slow, even with Slow Car Boost off & on Professional. However, it's great to be able to race them with no SCB, they're not so awful.
     
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  28. VBR

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    I had an epiphany today after reading about an alien on here using CSA, & decided to test it with the 458 Italia. It was horrendous with a wheel, causing some nasty FFB artifacts that I just couldn't stomach. However, it got me to thinking about trying out other aids, & I found a great stock set up for the 458 that makes it drive almost like it should. The car has TC & ESP in real life, & ASM is essentially GT's version of ESP, so I tried that & it worked a treat. I also managed to get rid of the odd understeer feeling that felt like a linearity issue. Below is the best set up for this car if you want it stock but drivable/raceable.

    Ferrari 458 Italia: Tryes = SM front/SS rear, TC = 1, & ASM = 1.

    Turns out it was that simple. And, I was 1 second a lap faster than on the Sm/R1 set up at Suzuka. There's still some small issues with wheel spin in, but now they are manageable with good wheel & throttle work. The car has more character as well than on the SM/R1 set up.

    If you're using a G29 (or G25/G27/CSR etc with a Drive Hub), make sure you set the in game settings for FFB to 7/4/10. I'm not going into details, just trust me on that.


    :tup:
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2018
  29. Lord Protector

    Lord Protector

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    Can anyone try launching the cars like I did in the OP, with stock tyres? Let’s see the improvement...

    Especially the Honda Civic and Dodge Hellcat.
     
  30. SPOOLMAN

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    No improvement. None.

    The type R just spins on the spot, hitting the rev limiter while sounding like a digitized car then bogs down for a good 2 seconds when you hit 2nd gear. Same crap different day.