FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

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As far as the presentation goes, I'll agree with HBK, I think it's just natural that Dan would say stuff like that. It's basically what I would do if I was in his place... And while it may sound like flamebait (and might be used as such), I doubt it was intended that way.

Also, for the GT5:P vs. GT5 thing, I think the reason why some people enjoyed GT5:P more was due to two reasons, mostly: First of, Prologue was somewhat in line with its predecessors. It was of a generally high quality and it didn't try to do things it couldn't do. And second, there weren't as many expactations that were left unsatisfied. That's what I felt in regard to both games, at the very least...
 
At this stage I wish GT5 came out a year later, at the same time as FM4. That would be the most epic fight of this gen, even better than BF3 vs MW3 stuff.
And of course this would mean total annihilation of the GT franchise.
 
Dan and turn 10 claiming definitive was pr speak in the same exact denver as kaz/pd slapping the standard everywhere there was a gt logo. I think dan is being american and runners ng with words. Thought it was funny of what he said though with all cars being premium and having cockpits
 
I can see where people preferring GT5p over GT5 are coming from.

My experience was very different. I was utterly disappointed by GT5p. I thought it was completely unacceptable to sell this kind of glorified demo 40€ (even if I got it with my PS3 :p). I found even more shocking that the overall quality was so low. Car models were great, but tracks were butt-ugly and I found the handling to be very ... screwed up. Not realistic one bit.

But the thing that truly shocked me having played FM2, was that so much basic things were done so wrong, with an interface slapping 5 seconds loading screens in your face for almost every single "click", and so many crappy choices in gamedesign like that good old "You start 16th out of 16 cars, 20s behind the first car in a rolling start. Now try to get first place without hitting another car lol !".

So, after GT5p, I was expecting to be massively disappointed by GT5. And I was kinda relieved that the game was not utter crap (mainly thanks to its awesome "driving feeling", and the amount of content that is provided). Still the game is shockingly sub par, not only given the pedigree of the franchise, but also as a standalone game with no history whatsoever.

Yet, I find GT5 to be a somewhat acceptable game, whereas GT5p, even if admittedly much more consistent, was lacking that "quantity" aspect that has always been an integral part of the franchise, that aspect which is desperately needed when the "quality" aspect is not there to begin with.
 
HBK
I thought it was completely unacceptable to sell this kind of glorified demo 40€.
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Agreed :lol:
But this is actually what I had in mind when I was talking about the expactations to be much different for GT5:P and GT5. People expected a demo that has its flaws. After five years and announcements like "expect perfection", the same didn't hold true for GT5.

That's just my personal take on it, though. I never cared much for Prologue at all, to be quite honest. It felt like, well, a rip-off. On the other hand, there seem to be a lot of people whh enjoyed it - for what it was, at least
 
OGL
At this stage I wish GT5 came out a year later, at the same time as FM4. That would be the most epic fight of this gen, even better than BF3 vs MW3 stuff.
And of course this would mean total annihilation of the GT franchise.
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Now that would be amazing
 
You know, I'm pretty sure I said I don't think Dan was saying those things deliberately to incite fanboyism, yet I am also sure he knows that those are the sorts of things that fanboys can and often do latch onto. Knowing that, you'd think he'd be more careful about his wording, especially being in PR, where word choice is everything. The same is true for PD, although I don't know of any time Kaz (Project Lead) mentioned specific features, just general approach. Maybe other people at Sony did, I don't know, but the argument is the same anyway - they should all know better.

I feel there should be more maturity in the way that these games are promoted (I'm not talking about individuals anymore), and that's what my issue with Sony's likely timing is about. Let GT5 stand or fall on its own merits, don't use cheap tricks to try to draw sales from the competition. Again, that incites fanboyism. Sure it might make sense monetarily, but it's a shame that that's all it comes down to with these publishers, especially when you see how the developers apply themselves to these projects.

Developers deserve better than to be slated by single-minded imbeciles and their feeble-minded followers just because of badly-worded marketing.
 
Terronium-12
And I can't believe you're questioning my opinion. I enjoyed Prologue more, so what? Move on.
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What did you think of the GT Academy release between GT5 Prologue and GT5? I know it was a mere demo with no car selection, but what were your thoughts on the feel of the driving?
 
Griffith500
You know, I'm pretty sure I said I don't think Dan was saying those things deliberately to incite fanboyism, yet I am also sure he knows that those are the sorts of things that fanboys can and often do latch onto. Knowing that, you'd think he'd be more careful about his wording, especially being in PR, where word choice is everything. The same is true for PD, although I don't know of any time Kaz (Project Lead) mentioned specific features, just general approach. Maybe other people at Sony did, I don't know, but the argument is the same anyway - they should all know better.

I feel there should be more maturity in the way that these games are promoted (I'm not talking about individuals anymore), and that's what my issue with Sony's likely timing is about. Let GT5 stand or fall on its own merits, don't use cheap tricks to try to draw sales from the competition. Again, that incites fanboyism. Sure it might make sense monetarily, but it's a shame that that's all it comes down to with these publishers, especially when you see how the developers apply themselves to these projects.

Developers deserve better than to be slated by single-minded imbeciles and their feeble-minded followers just because of badly-worded marketing.
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It is a business. They are making and developing a game to make money. Of course there is going to be competition, slander, and they WANT loyalists. Do you think they should just play nice? Come on. Thats life and business in the world. Pepsi vs Coke, Ford vs Chevy, PC vs Apple, etc. etc. Why should a game company be any different?

When 2 games are close in genre there will always be sheep-like loyalists, that cannot think for themselves when choosing a game. One the choice is made, there is no going back for them. Its single minded. But it also gives a company a pretty good return rate on future games. Blind followers.

Then there is rest of the gaming comminity that can think for themselves, and buy product on their criteria, and not just because this game is branded with this logo.

People that get upset over PR campaigns are generally the blind followers.
 
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Vaxxtx
When 2 games are close in genre there will always be sheep-like loyalists, that cannot think for themselves when choosing a game. One the choice is made, there is no going back for them. Its single minded. But it also gives a company a pretty good return rate on future games. Blind followers.
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Blind followers = Fanboys

And PD lost A LOT of them with GT5. They lost me for sure. I dont expect PD to be able to sell us this poo once more. I dont think Sony will even let them.. (by that i mean that PD wont be given total production control, planning control, and delivery control. They wont be able to take six years and release a half-done game, they will need to make a good game in 2, max 3 years.

And i personally think they cant do that..
 
Cringe....guys, I think Scaff is going to sweep up in here with that "terminology" that keeps getting used. I think we need to move away from that to keep this thread alive.
 
After seeing that Gamespot Video, I have to say, I have realized I was in denial.

Growing up with GT Series (Literally, only a year or so older than GT1) I really wanted it to succeed. Well, let's just say, GT5 happened. I love the game, but it has many, many flaws. And I've always known this, but I've always said, "Oh well, it can't be that bad." In that nervous, crazy person voice. But, lately, there's just been so many problems with the game making me very frustrated. Like not being able to play any Special events or License Tests any more. After seeing that video, I don't think GT will come out alive, at least not without a serious blow to the franchise.

It's truly the little things that perfect the game. GT5 has the big things, tracks, cars, and physics. But they don't have the small things, that perfect the big things. Like fully modeled cars, all tracks from previous games, and a good UI.

Forza does all this, in fact, I didn't think Forza could get any simpler. But with the recent video, it seems the menu's are built for 2 year olds, and I like that. Better for getting into races faster. They had the physics before, just grip was unbelievable. Now it's fixed. To me, I think this game will easily defeat GT5, which is sad. It's like watching the country you were born in and grew up with listening to all the problems, and solutions, finally getting defeat in a long going war. It's kinda sad.

That said, I can't wait for FM4. I'll still play GT5, because if you race, it's still fairly fun. With Forza though, I'll be able to race with all my school friends, because everyone in my school has an Xbox. That's something that GT5 doesn't have for me, one reason why I still play FM3.
 
Vaxxtx
It is a business. They are making and developing a game to make money. Of course there is going to be competition, slander, and they WANT loyalists. Do you think they should just play nice? Come on. Thats life and business in the world. Pepsi vs Coke, Ford vs Chevy, PC vs Apple, etc. etc. Why should a game company be any different?

When 2 games are close in genre there will always be sheep-like loyalists, that cannot think for themselves when choosing a game. One the choice is made, there is no going back for them. Its single minded. But it also gives a company a pretty good return rate on future games. Blind followers.

Then there is rest of the gaming comminity that can think for themselves, and buy product on their criteria, and not just because this game is branded with this logo.

People that get upset over PR campaigns are generally the blind followers.
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Care to clarify what it is you're trying to say here?

I suppose I just don't like "business" then, if that's really how it works. I'll stick to my nice, polite independent developers, shall I? No, I'll keep buying the big games, if they appeal. I expect the reason people come back to a given series is because they can think for themselves.

Perhaps it's a cultural thing; I hate propaganda and "brand loyalty" of any kind. As if it actually means anything, outside of a tribe mentality. I'm a pragmatist, and somewhat non-sentimental I'll admit, so I'll buy what works for me.
 
^I recommend not getting your hopes up Crispychicken49..."just in case". Keep in mind, we saw lots of videos, lots of commentary leading up to FM3, and yet, they still dropped the ball in some areas. They deceived us with the car quality claiming in game was the same as photomode as far as quality goes. They claimed public lobbies were still in, even though they ended up only being hoppers. They released cockpits without fully fuctioning IPs in some of the cars (and contrary to the belief of some, were never fixed).

I personally still believe there is deception on the part of PR and Marketing (with any company really), so I have learned to take it for what it is, AFTER I get to experience it first hand.

I know that some people on this board have been to Gamescon and E3 and experienced the game for themselves, and it's indeed promising. But with 500-600 cars yet to be driven on the track, and scrutinized to no end with physics and graphics by the community, I think there is always a chance for a wake up call.
 
crispychicken49
After seeing that Gamespot Video, I have to say, I have realized I was in denial.

Growing up with GT Series (Literally, only a year or so older than GT1) I really wanted it to succeed. Well, let's just say, GT5 happened. I love the game, but it has many, many flaws. And I've always known this, but I've always said, "Oh well, it can't be that bad." In that nervous, crazy person voice. But, lately, there's just been so many problems with the game making me very frustrated. Like not being able to play any Special events or License Tests any more. After seeing that video, I don't think GT will come out alive, at least not without a serious blow to the franchise.

It's truly the little things that perfect the game. GT5 has the big things, tracks, cars, and physics. But they don't have the small things, that perfect the big things. Like fully modeled cars, all tracks from previous games, and a good UI.
Forza does all this, in fact, I didn't think Forza could get any simpler. But with the recent video, it seems the menu's are built for 2 year olds, and I like that. Better for getting into races faster. They had the physics before, just grip was unbelievable. Now it's fixed. To me, I think this game will easily defeat GT5, which is sad. It's like watching the country you were born in and grew up with listening to all the problems, and solutions, finally getting defeat in a long going war. It's kinda sad.

That said, I can't wait for FM4. I'll still play GT5, because if you race, it's still fairly fun. With Forza though, I'll be able to race with all my school friends, because everyone in my school has an Xbox. That's something that GT5 doesn't have for me, one reason why I still play FM3.
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I totally agree on the not having fully modeled cars is a letdown. I dont agree that they nailed the cars and tracks though (except Nords, they did rather well). In all seriousness, who wants to race a VW bus? Who wants to race more than say 2-3 versions of the MX5? Race Pro, anf Ferarri Challenge hold my interest with a low car count just fine. Shift2- seems like they took every car in GT5 that people want to drive, add some more in that are not in GT5, left out a bunch of fluff cars, and made a perfect car selection with full cockpits and working gauges.

As far as tracks go, I am probably a rarity, but I like real world tracks over fantasy ones anyday. After watching a GT3 race at Zolder, or a BTCC at Brands Hatch, its hard to play a game with some pretty, made up over the top track. Again something Race Pro, FC, and Shift2 (the best tracks in any game I have played), did so well at.

I dont think the GT series will ever die, but I believe people with an open mind that think for themselves will see there is more out there. Hopefully PD can take the pros of Forza, Shift2, and even the older ones, and make a streamlined game, and not a "Throw everyhting in the game" and hope some of it is ok.

Until that happens, I am quite happy with my collection right now, and looking forward (and hoping it will be what I am looking for) Forza4.
 
Griffith500
Care to clarify what it is you're trying to say here?

I suppose I just don't like "business" then, if that's really how it works. I'll stick to my nice, polite independent developers, shall I? No, I'll keep buying the big games, if they appeal. I expect the reason people come back to a given series is because they can think for themselves.

Perhaps it's a cultural thing; I hate propaganda and "brand loyalty" of any kind. As if it actually means anything, outside of a tribe mentality. I'm a pragmatist, and somewhat non-sentimental I'll admit, so I'll buy what works for me.
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I wansnt taking a personal shot at you, sorry if it sounded that way. It was meant to be a general statement.

Sadly, that is how businesses ARE run. Sometimes its subtle, and sometimes very apparent that one brand is putting down the other.

Like Pepsi's, blind taste test campaign. Even though a good amount of people "liked" Pepsi more in the taste test....they reported they will still purchase Coke. Another group of Coke loyalists, said they wont even take the taste test, because they like Coke...so no need to. Those results were odd to me. And it goes to show no matter what, some people stick with a brand for no good reason.
 
Vaxxtx
I wansnt taking a personal shot at you, sorry if it sounded that way. It was meant to be a general statement.

Sadly, that is how businesses ARE run. Sometimes its subtle, and sometimes very apparent that one brand is putting down the other.

Like Pepsi's, blind taste test campaign. Even though a good amount of people "liked" Pepsi more in the taste test....they reported they will still purchase Coke. Another group of Coke loyalists, said they wont even take the taste test, because they like Coke...so no need to. Those results were odd to me. And it goes to show no matter what, some people stick with a brand for no good reason.
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If that's the case, why does "business" have to come into it at all? Just a thought.
 
Griffith500
If that's the case, why does "business" have to come into it at all? Just a thought.
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Because companies want to not only get those who will buy the game blindly, but convince others as well. Also, it takes some effort to create a blind following in the first place.

You know, our marketing department always says that most people don't buy stuff with their brain, but with their emotions. If you can create such an emotional response in the audience, that's worth far more than a good product. Or, as they put it: "Good marketing > good product".
 
Griffith500
If that's the case, why does "business" have to come into it at all? Just a thought.
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Not sure I understand what you asking.

Because the whole focus of making a game or a product, or a movie, or a service is for money. In order to be competetive, you have market to your audience and let me know why your product is better....or why the comp's is worse.

Not many people play nice when it come to market share or making money.

Do you think people make movies or games just because they want people to enjoy them? Maybe a little bit, but the end goal is to get a larger return on investment. Even indie movie and game devs produce their products in hopes of making money...and hopefully making it big.

Basically dont expect a company to miss a chance to A. Make more money or B. Hurt their competitor's chance of market share. Thats why PD will be relaseing updates in hopes to keep people loyal to GT5 closer to FM4 release. Also why you hear jabs like the Premium cars with all cockpits thing. Or EA buying out the NFL contract to assure they have no comp.
 
Is T10 still claiming that they have the most manufacturers of any racing game? 'cause I think they're just tied with GT5. I guess will have to compare the numbers when FM4 comes out...but for the record:

GT4 - 92 makes
GT5 - 99 makes

So...yeah. I don't know where T10 came up with 80 makes = the most of any racing game.
 
I'm not getting where Dan has supposed to fuel the fanboy war?

Have I missed something here.
 
SuperShouden
Is T10 still claiming that they have the most manufacturers of any racing game? 'cause I think they're just tied with GT5. I guess will have to compare the numbers when FM4 comes out...but for the record:

GT4 - 92 makes
GT5 - 99 makes

So...yeah. I don't know where T10 came up with 80 makes = the most of any racing game.
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But Forza included the tuner cars and special cars under the big car names, atleast till FM 3. FM 4 has Abarth as a single one.


But about GT:
- AC Cars -> Shelby
- AEM -> Honda
- Amuse -> Honda + Nissan
- Art Morrison -> Chevrolet
- Blitz -> Nissan
- HKS -> Nissan + Mitsubishi
- HPA -> Audi + VW
- Mines -> Mitsubishi + Nissan
- Mugen -> Honda
- Nismo -> Nissan
- Opera -> Honda + Nissan
- RE Amemiya -> Mazda
- Tom's -> Toyota
- TRD -> Toyota
- TRIAL -> Toyota

So you have many "manufacturers" that are handled in FM quite differently, because they get included under their original makes. In the end it will be nearly the same, so now to say FM has less is as wrong as to say GT has way more.

Spagetti69
I'm not getting where Dan has supposed to fuel the fanboy war?

Have I missed something here.
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He said in an interview that all the cars are premium, which meant that all the cars have cockpit and customization and also get the same threatment. Some see this as an attack of their franchise and believe, but I think he just wanted to make things clear. After GT5, which did this standard & premium the first time I ever saw (help me if there were other games that did something similar before), the masses might be not so secure about the contents anymore. But this is also a proof that they scan the competition and I pressume that they look for things the gamers like in GT and try to do similar things.
 
Spagetti69
I'm not getting where Dan has supposed to fuel the fanboy war?

Have I missed something here.
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In the 18 minute gamespot video doing the rounds, I'm sure he said, "And we have 500+ cars, all premium, with fully modelled interiors"..

For all we know he might have just been marketing to the GT5 userbase and using the term to mean all the cars will be of reasonable quality, or he could have been calling Kaz out..
 
phil-t
In the 18 minute gamespot video doing the rounds, I'm sure he said, "And we have 500+ cars, all premium, with fully modelled interiors"..

For all we know he might have just been marketing to the GT5 userbase and using the term to mean all the cars will be of reasonable quality, or he could have been calling Kaz out..
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Well PD first coined that phrase, before this I had never heard such a term.

Is it ok for one brand to use a 1031 car count but another brand to say it's inferior car count makes up for the deficit in other ways.

I've said it before but the term premium and standard is stretching it to say the least.

Forzas cars are standard. GT's premiums are standard. GT's standard are actually sub standard by today's benchmark.

To call the standard models standard is an insult to the PS3's power.

So I suppose Dan is wrong when he says we have all premium cars. You don't dan.

Forza 4 where premium comes as standard.
 
Spagetti69
Forzas cars are standard. GT's premiums are standard. GT's standard are actually sub standard by today's benchmark.
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👍

Spagetti69
To call the standard models standard is an insult to the PS3's power.
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Actually, calling the cars they've ported from GT4 'standard' is quite insulting to all the current-gen games. Plus, I think it's an insult to the GT franchise. I never though that that would be the standard GT was supposed to set.
 
Bogie 19th
What did you think of the GT Academy release between GT5 Prologue and GT5? I know it was a mere demo with no car selection, but what were your thoughts on the feel of the driving?
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I felt it was a bit twitchy at first, had a better feel to it than Prologue no doubt, but twitchy nonetheless. I got used to it in the end but not as apparently fluent as things became once GT5 rolled around. Which for some reason gives off the impression that things may have toned down ever so slightly. I could be wrong though.

You'd never hear me say GT5 lacks in the (overall) physics department, but even then...there are anomalies that shouldn't even be there.
 
jabofu
But Forza included the tuner cars and special cars under the big car names, atleast till FM 3. FM 4 has Abarth as a single one.


But about GT:
- AC Cars -> Shelby
- AEM -> Honda
- Amuse -> Honda + Nissan
- Art Morrison -> Chevrolet
- Blitz -> Nissan
- HKS -> Nissan + Mitsubishi
- HPA -> Audi + VW
- Mines -> Mitsubishi + Nissan
- Mugen -> Honda
- Nismo -> Nissan
- Opera -> Honda + Nissan
- RE Amemiya -> Mazda
- Tom's -> Toyota
- TRD -> Toyota
- TRIAL -> Toyota

So you have many "manufacturers" that are handled in FM quite differently, because they get included under their original makes. In the end it will be nearly the same, so now to say FM has less is as wrong as to say GT has way more.



He said in an interview that all the cars are premium, which meant that all the cars have cockpit and customization and also get the same threatment. Some see this as an attack of their franchise and believe, but I think he just wanted to make things clear. After GT5, which did this standard & premium the first time I ever saw (help me if there were other games that did something similar before), the masses might be not so secure about the contents anymore. But this is also a proof that they scan the competition and I pressume that they look for things the gamers like in GT and try to do similar things.
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AC Cars and Shelby are NOT the same brand. Carol used the AC 427 body when making the Shelby Cobra, but the Cobra has a different engine than the AC. And...AC Cars is from Britain and Shelby is American. Any true car guy will tell you that AC and Shelby aren't the same and shame on T10 if they include the two under the same brand.
 
And Art Morrison is a private tuner who uses Chevrolet parts.
Just like the "Trans Cammer" isn't a Ford anymore.
HPA also uses cars from different manufacturers, if the Golf would be a Premium too, I would want to see it next to the TT and not seperated in VW, while the TT is listed under Audi.
 

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