FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Griffith500]

I don't understand your point or why you have chosen to quote me.

My point is that dredging up old posts and asserting them now as proof of character in support of an argument is fallacy, given people are somewhat prone to change their minds based on new information. Have you heard of science, for instance?

I quoted you because you appeared to be applauding his belligerence, or at least validating its intended effect ("put in their place"). I'm sorry if that wasn't the case.

 

[McLaren]

It would be appreciated it you would not tell members what they should or should not be posting. That's the staff's job and no one else's.

If I recall correctly, the AUP states that you will not post false information (or along those lines). Why is it that he is still free to do so even when corrected?

I also strongly suggest you re-read the opening post in this thread in regard to your repeated use of the term troll, as right now both of you are looking at a time out for an off-topic spat and wasting my 10,000 post on rubbish.

Scaff

Only a troll goes into multiple threads & makes posts he knows are going to get a reaction from, or states incorrect information. And when shown otherwise, he sticks to his guns & ignores it, continuing to post these inaccuracies. Other members have already attested to this.

Why you never choose to step in during those times doesn't really begin to surprise me.

My point is that dredging up old posts and asserting them now as proof of character in support of an argument is fallacy, given people are somewhat prone to change their minds based on new information. Have you heard of science, for instance?

It's not. The only thing he's done different since is change how he words his statements. The one thing that remains the same is the made up posts about what Forza does wrong. He brought up how Forza's DLC layout is terrible when it works that way for nearly all Live games. And just recently he carried on with the lies again stating it's an awful DLC setup & posted that the packs all cost $10, when they don't.

As jabofu said, he brings up claims without any sort of proof, claims that could easily be corrected with a quick search. He's done it in the past & he's doing it now. I don't see in the slightest how he may have changed his mind about the series if that's how he chooses to bring out its "cons". Someone doesn't go from disliking something to sort-of-liking it by still pulling wrong statements out of the air.

I gave my views on him. You & some disagreed, while others didn't. Due so, my involvement ends here.

 

[Scaff]

If I recall correctly, the AUP states that you will not post false information (or along those lines). Why is it that he is still free to do so even when corrected?

If you feel a member is breaking the AUP then use the report button, this has been explained to you (and others) numerous times.

It would seem that the message is not getting across, as a number of members here seem to believe that they control what is considered acceptable conduct and what is not. The staff however take moderation action based upon discussion and review of all of the information at hand, we have the entire history of all members posting and moderation history available to us, you do not. Given that, we do not require assistance when taking action.

Only a troll goes into multiple threads & makes posts he knows are going to get a reaction from, or states incorrect information. And when shown otherwise, he sticks to his guns & ignores it, continuing to post these inaccuracies. Other members have already attested to this.

Then attack the point and argue against that, do not attack the member. This point has been brought to your attention in thread and via moderation numerous times in the past. As such its not new to you, however I can assure you that the staff are growing rather tired of being ignored in regard to it.

Why you never choose to step in during those times doesn't really begin to surprise me.

And exactly how do you know what action I take on these boards?

Short answer is that you do not have a clue.

You do not get to see the flame bait posted by GT fans in here that gets perma-deleted so not one seems it. You do not get to see the PMs, warnings and infractions I have issued to members on both sides of the arguments and you certainly seem to have missed the numerous times I have intervened when both sides have stepped over the line.

To that last point a number of members on here certainly can attest to.

Be warned this is not a subject for debate or discussion, I am not looking for you opinion of moderation action. I am instructing you (as a member of staff and as mandated by the AUP) to follow the instructions I have posted in the opening post of this thread, should you fail to do so then action will be taken.

Should you feel that my action is biased then feel free to take it up with a member of the admin team or Jordan.

Discussion ends


Scaff

 

[Luminis]

Well, I don't like just going on to a 'new' topic just like that, but I think I'll just do that.

See, I've been watching the interview that Dan gave at Gamescom, and near the end, he talks about how he's always having an eye on the competition and, moreso, that the guys at T10 are gamers. He mentioned how they get inspiration from lots of different games, which i found quite interesting. The reason I bring this up is because it is the exact opposite approach PD, or rather, Kaz, has taken.

I'll have to get my hands on FM4 to say anything about the driving feel it offers, but I sure have the sneaking suspicion that that difference in approach is one of the primary reasons as to why GT5 and FM3 (and, subsequently, FM4) are so unlike each other when it comes to the 'game' bit. It's a bit hard to explain that without going into a full-blown rant, but I think you get the idea.

All I'm trying to say, it's no suprise to me anymore why FM3 always felt like the better game to me, as it seems to be made by people who not only care about cars, but about games as well. And, if FM4 feels as good as jabofu reported, they might have that base covered, too.

Dunno, I just kinda hope that PD/Kaz listens to stuff like this and realizes that GT is still a game, "Real Driving Simulator" or not.

 

[Griffith500]

It's obvious that T10 do look at the other games, yes: We You Love Cars, for instance, as well as the NFS inspiration that's everywhere. I had to laugh when he mentioned Amazon, though, because I'm not sure that's the best place to look for features in a game. Unless they plan to add a real-money store, or something. That said, I liked a lot of what was shown - I liked the range of choice, which, I have to say, has been missing in game design in general these last few years.

I don't, though, believe for one minute that Kaz is oblivious to the competition, and Sony certainly isn't. There's a reason the Prologue servers go offline at the end of September, and that the extra content for GT5 will "follow" the updates. It's all about timing, timing that in my opinion is down to Sony. Timing that irks me somewhat.

 

[Terronium-12]

I don't, though, believe for one minute that Kaz is oblivious to the competition, and Sony certainly isn't. There's a reason the Prologue servers go offline at the end of September, and that the extra content for GT5 will "follow" the updates. It's all about timing, timing that in my opinion is down to Sony. Timing that irks me somewhat.

GT4 and even moreso 5 begs to differ with your thought. Timing isn't going to do them any favors when a lot of people are already irked with whatever GT5 was trying to be and aren't going to come back, regardless of what's being added. Not being oblivious to and actually learning from the competition are two distinct differences. You can be aware all you want but if you don't learn from it -- what difference does it make? Prologue is a better game than GT5 itself.

 

[Vaxxtx]

I am excited more and more for the game, but the things that make me nervous about FM4 are:

1. Talking about car love and passion is the same thing I heard from the GT5 guys. I can admit there are way more things I dont like about GT5 than I do like. Watching the video made me remember the pre GT5 vids. Too much on museum cards, and history bio's on every car. NOT enough racing.

2. Autovista and Kinect. I know Kinect has to be put in because its the "new" thing, but I hope it was an afterthought, and not a main focus. Personally I could care less to open a car door or get info on a particular part. If I want a virtual tour I got the internet. If its done well thats fine and all as long as the rest of the game wasnt sacrificed for it.

 

[Luminis]

I don't, though, believe for one minute that Kaz is oblivious to the competition, and Sony certainly isn't.

And neither do I, but I remember reading something about him not realy being interested in what the competition does. I can't provide a source for that, but I think it was some kind of interview that this was mentioned in.

Anyways, as Terronium-12 said, even if the competition is taken into account, it doesn't show. Not to me, at least.

Overall, it gives me the feeling that, while they know fairly well what's going on, they just don't bother thinking about it. It's like they're being, you know, cocky. "We've got the GT badge, the competition should look to us for inspiration, not vice versa".

 

[Terronium-12]

I am excited more and more for the game, but the things that make me nervous about FM4 are:

1. Talking about car love and passion is the same thing I heard from the GT5 guys. I can admit there are way more things I dont like about GT5 than I do like. Watching the video made me remember the pre GT5 vids. Too much on museum cards, and history bio's on every car. NOT enough racing.

2. Autovista and Kinect. I know Kinect has to be put in because its the "new" thing, but I hope it was an afterthought, and not a main focus. Personally I could care less to open a car door or get info on a particular part. If I want a virtual tour I got the internet. If its done well thats fine and all as long as the rest of the game wasnt sacrificed for it.

1. What does that have to do with anything? Dan was just as enthusiastic now as he was during the lead up to 2 and 3's release.

2. How many times does it have to pointed out the only thing Kinect is for is Autovista, headtracking, voice commands, and using an "air" controller? That's it. It doesn't impact, impede, or limit the rest of the game. If you don't have Kinect it isn't like 10% of the game won't be available to you. Autovista actually is a gameplay feature, it's own standalone feature might I add.

 

[cuco33]

Kinect's biggest pro-core feature will be head tracking but at least my girl can play in the arcade mode

With that said ill probably try out kinect x autovista but most likely will use controller in that mode on the norm

 

[phil-t]

I am excited more and more for the game, but the things that make me nervous about FM4 are:

1. Talking about car love and passion is the same thing I heard from the GT5 guys. I can admit there are way more things I dont like about GT5 than I do like. Watching the video made me remember the pre GT5 vids. Too much on museum cards, and history bio's on every car. NOT enough racing.

It all goes hand in hand, we know it's got 12/16 cars, more varied career, public online lobbies, car clubs, rivals, as well as all the well integrated TG stuff, and lets not forget that's all on top of new physics with all the upgrade/livery/auction house stuff that is already pretty deep from FM3, plus there could be even more stuff.. Of course they could have done 10 more tracks and a whole host of other stuff we can dream up, but for 2 years I don't think you can say they've neglected any of their customer base (well lets see how the photo/video exporting goes )

2. Autovista and Kinect. I know Kinect has to be put in because its the "new" thing, but I hope it was an afterthought, and not a main focus. Personally I could care less to open a car door or get info on a particular part. If I want a virtual tour I got the internet. If its done well thats fine and all as long as the rest of the game wasnt sacrificed for it.

They've admitted that the improvements they had to make to the graphics engine for autovista has benefitted the main game, and lets not forget that head tracking and voice shortcuts throughout the game is a good use of kinect in the main game..

 

[jabofu]

I think with GT5 they shot themselfes in the foot. The average guy is not as happy with GT5 as many of us think. It will become a problem with GT6. Before GT5 we all had GT4 in mind and were hyped to get the next version of the epic racing simulation by Sony. But it all didnt went how it should have.

The gap between the games is also a big big problem. Forza is gaining more and more popularity, people want to be entertained and get things they can enjoy. Waiting for over 5-6 years only work with games like MGS. GT is not timeless and the customer will check the facts before buying GT6. On my GT5 box it says nothing about standard vs premium. 100-300 mb patches every 2 month arent so userfriendly neither.

 

[Luminis]

It will become a problem with GT6.

While I completely agree with everything else you've said, I can't see that happening... The GT badge alone will draw a huge crowd in, still.

 

[Vaxxtx]

While I completely agree with everything else you've said, I can't see that happening... The GT badge alone will draw a huge crowd in, still.

Not for all. I was a fan of GT from 1 and 2. Skipped 3 and 4 due to PC gaming only. Heard about 5. I had a little interest. Didnt play GT5P. Played a bit of GT5 at a friends house, wasnt impressed. Bought it for myself about 2 months ago. Played through A spec and B spec. Played seasonals. Got bored, went back to Shift2. Traded GT5 in for Forza 3.

I for one will not be getting GT6 on release day, if at all.

Sadly, you are right...the name GT alone will assure sales.

 

[II-zOoLoGy-II]

My point is that dredging up old posts and asserting them now as proof of character in support of an argument is fallacy, given people are somewhat prone to change their minds based on new information. Have you heard of science, for instance?

I quoted you because you appeared to be applauding his belligerence, or at least validating its intended effect ("put in their place"). I'm sorry if that wasn't the case.

No, I have not heard of "science." What is this you are speaking of? I have a couple of degrees in something that starts with a "sc" and ends in "ience" but I don't think it's "science"... It might be basket weaving?

And no I was not applauding anyone's "belligerence." I will just leave it at that because this is pointless.

 

[Luminis]

Not for all.

Of course not. I actually think that it's the actual 'fans' (not the fanboys, of course) who will be more cautious about buying GT6...

Sadly, you are right...the name GT alone will assure sales.

Yup. And that's exactly what's worrying me. There doesn't seem to be much reason for PD and Kaz to actually work on evolving GT.

 

[Griffith500]

GT4 and even moreso 5 begs to differ with your thought. Timing isn't going to do them any favors when a lot of people are already irked with whatever GT5 was trying to be and aren't going to come back, regardless of what's being added. Not being oblivious to and actually learning from the competition are two distinct differences. You can be aware all you want but if you don't learn from it -- what difference does it make? Prologue is a better game than GT5 itself.

I don't get what GT4 has to do with it? (Genuinely)
I'm irked because I feel they shouldn't be using the updates simply as a way to coax back players at all, certainly not in the way it looks like it's going to play out. Just release the stuff if it's ready, don't mess everyone about and play silly willy wanging games with the competition. It only fuels the fanboy "debate", which nobody wants (except the fanboys, perhaps).

If people see the game has been updated, with new features at long last, then a good proportion will try it again, just the same as a good proportion won't try it for their own personal reasons (while the rest were already still playing it), so the point is irrelevant. But that wasn't the point I was making anyway.

Parts of GT5 may have been better, but overall GT5 comfortably trumps it, as it should be. Actually, they're different games - they set out to do different things. For better or for worse, in sickness and in health etc. That argument's been worn out, too.


@ II-zOoLoGy-II: Well done. I already apologised for the potential misunderstanding, so you can keep your flippant and facile rebuke.

 

[G.T.Ace]

I think with GT5 they shot themselfes in the foot. The average guy is not as happy with GT5 as many of us think.

Actually, the only people I see who are disappointed are people who post on forums like here, the average guys I know, or people who bought a PS3 this year without any big GT experience, are extremely impressed and very happy. Even guys who only drove iRacing, GTR² and rFactor before.
Just a couple of days ago I chatted with someone who told me he will buy a PS3 soon, especially because he finds GT5 so amazing.

The GT communities only represent a small amount of people and even in these, the majority (according to some polls I've seen already) are pleased. And everage people don't even care for Standard cars.

 

[Griffith500]

It's interesting, because listening to Dan in that nice preview video I was, for some reason, wholly expecting it to be aimed at "everyone", given the way he was explaining the Kinect integration, Autovista etc. Some of it did indeed seem aimed directly at parents, or casual gamers. Fine, I expected that.

But what got me was the little things that are clearly aimed at the kinds of people who do comment here and other places like it, and some of those things could so easily be taken and used as flamebait in the right places. I wish I could be more specific; one thing that stands out is the random injection of technical terms again, I suppose (he said interpolation again I think he likes the concept).

Maybe I'm just paranoid, being the impressionable person that I am, that he's trying to hypnotise me in some way

 

[Luminis]

But what got me was the little things that are clearly aimed at the kinds of people who do comment here and other places like it, and some of those things could so easily be taken and used as flamebait in the right places.

Yeah, I know fairly well what you're talking about. I picked up a few subtle (or not so subtle) jabs he threw at the competition here and there - most notably NFS's Autolog and GT5's standard/premium thing...

 

[Griffith500]

Yeah, I know fairly well what you're talking about. I picked up a few subtle (or not so subtle) jabs he threw at the competition here and there - most notably NFS's Autolog and GT5's standard/premium thing...

Ha, yeah, that rings a bell. Glad I'm not imagining it, then. 👍

 

[HBK]

Overall, it gives me the feeling that, while they know fairly well what's going on, they just don't bother thinking about it. It's like they're being, you know, cocky. "We've got the GT badge, the competition should look to us for inspiration, not vice versa".

Pretty much the feeling I get too.

Edit : I very much like to listen to Mr Beardawalt. He may be a bit trollish at times, but his presentations are always clear and concise. Of course, he tends to repeat himself quite a bit over the interviews, but that is to be expected. He *is* PR-ing, after all.

 

[Griffith500]

Let me be clear, I enjoyed the presentation. My ears were pricked more by things that I expected to be taken out of context by that kind of person (not Dan), much as happened before GT5's release. I wouldn't go so far as to say Dan's being trollish; he's certainly toned it down a massive amount from the way he was before FM3 released, at any rate!

Anyway, I just wish fanboyism wasn't encouraged at all. It spoils everything.

As for PD, I would agree that maybe Sony would regard the GT label in that way, but the way I interpreted Kaz's (translated, by Sony) responses is that he is interested in what other people are doing, but he prefers to focus on his vision - call that what you will. Presumably, GT5 in its current state is far from that vision, one would hope. Certainly, the things he's said in the past would point to that.

As for not listening, the updates have shown that they do listen, even if that's in their own sweet time. Plus damage wouldn't be in the game (love it or hate it, that's not the point) if it weren't for listening.


I think it comes down to the fact that some core qualities that are in the one game are absent in the other. So I think it's safe to say that they're just different games; the approach is different, and the target market is (subtly) different, too. The fun is to be had in discussing those differences in themselves, rather than trying to assert one game's supremacy over the other.

 

[Terronium-12]

I don't get what GT4 has to do with it? (Genuinely)

More to do with the assertion that GT follows it's own formula that doesn't seem to be influenced by anything else. If it is (I'm referring to 5 now) then...wow. Stop seeking influence.

I'm irked because I feel they shouldn't be using the updates simply as a way to coax back players at all, certainly not in the way it looks like it's going to play out. Just release the stuff if it's ready, don't mess everyone about and play silly willy wanging games with the competition. It only fuels the fanboy "debate", which nobody wants (except the fanboys, perhaps).

I'm confused. What are you talking about here?

Parts of GT5 may have been better, but overall GT5 comfortably trumps it, as it should be. Actually, they're different games - they set out to do different things. For better or for worse, in sickness and in health etc. That argument's been worn out, too.

I wouldn't say comfortably at all. I played Prologue far longer than the full-on release and it doesn't even have anywhere near the same amount of content. To me, there's something really, really wrong with that.

 

[JDMKING13]

I think it comes down to the fact that some core qualities that are in the one game are absent in the other. So I think it's safe to say that they're just different games; the approach is different, and the target market is (subtly) different, too. The fun is to be had in discussing those differences in themselves, rather than trying to assert one game's supremacy over the other.

That's what 'i'm talking about man great post. 👍

Edit @ Terronium-12 I really cannot believe you think GT5 Prologue is on GT5 level, just because you played it more.

 

[Terronium-12]

And I can't believe you're questioning my opinion. I enjoyed Prologue more, so what? Move on.

 

[JDMKING13]

And I can't believe you're questioning my opinion. I enjoyed Prologue more, so what? Move on.

I'm sorry about questing your opinion, I thought that's what people normally do on a forum. Then usually that's backed up by the person giving some type of logic response. Honestly I don't understand what I need to move on about, but no problem. I was just confused because of your conversation with Griff you made it seem like GT5P is a close comparison to GT5, so I was pondering the reason. When you said you played it more that was kinda weird, but no problem.

 

[HeadsoupBob]

And I can't believe you're questioning my opinion. I enjoyed Prologue more, so what? Move on.

Funny, now that I think about it, so did I! I pretty much covered all the content in Prologue, but GT5 gave up after around level 15. The thought of sitting through so much loading just to get a race going has held me off going back completely.

 

[HBK]

My ears were pricked more by things that I expected to be taken out of context by that kind of person (not Dan), much as happened before GT5's release.

I dunno, I find it pretty ... human. It might just be a PR move to appeal to some of the fanboys, but I think it's actually a bit more "honest" than that. They are working so hard (both Turn10 and PD) I find it only natural that they would want to showcase what they did right, those strongpoints they're really proud about.

I'm not saying that's always a good thing, especially when it could backfire so much (Dan's overly pretentious "definitive" statement, or Kaz's ridiculing Forza "not being a true sim" when GT clearly is not either).

But I find, just, human, that they would say thing like "we do this and they do not".

 

[NLxAROSA]

Edit @ Terronium-12 I really cannot believe you think GT5 Prologue is on GT5 level, just because you played it more.

Well, I feel the same as T-12, and I can explain why. While GT5 trumps over GT5P in many areas, it also lacks severely in just as much, degrading the overall experience. GT5P was coherent, focused and quality was high (or at least at the same level) on almost every aspect. GT5 is not coherent, not focused (trying to do everything, but excel at none) and quality is extremely high in some areas and extremely low in other areas (many times even making steps backward from previous iterations!), making the whole end result messy. Though granted, other games/sims suffer from this as well; it's like racing game/sim developers have no way of doing something 'mediocre', features are either executed extremely well, or extremely crappy.

I for one am looking forward to see how FM4 will turn out and how it will compare to GT5, but I will reserve judgement until it's out.