Force-Feedback and Rumble are two different things!!

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This is getting utterly rediculous.

One jackass on this very forum, someone who clearly doesn't know the difference between rumble and force-feedback, makes an uninformed post and now the entire gaming community is in an uproar because news sites are posting that PS3 racing wheels won't have force-feedback.

For the longest time, people have been referring to rumble as "force-feedback", so that everyone thinks they're the same thing.

Those of us who have played with a DFP know what force-feedback is. It's when the wheel fights you, when it turns of it's own volition, jerking this way and that, in order to better simulate the feedback one would experience from the steering wheel of a car.

I've read the patents that Immersion is suing Sony over. They mention NOTHING OF THE KIND. Immersion's patents, and their entire lawsuit, is based SOLEY on the rumble feature of the DS/DS2 controllers. The patents specifically describe small motors attached to offset weights that produce a vibration when the motors are activated.

That's it. Rumble. Vibration. Immersion has NO say in Logitech's force-feedback technology. They are two COMPLETELY different technologies. The ONLY similarity between the two is that the console has to send information back to the controller. That's all. And I seriously doubt Immersion has patented something like that, something that's done entirely through software and a couple of wires. If they have, they've yet to mention it in their lawsuit.

So let's be clear about this: When Sony says that they don't support "force-feedback" in the controllers, they're talking about the RUMBLE feature of the old DS/DS2. They are NOT talking about the full-bore force-feedback of Logitech's wheels.

To sum up, the PS3 WILL support force-feedback in wheels, as we all know and love. Don't let the internet fool you because people are too stupid to see the difference between an apple and an orange.
 
This is from the G25 manual:

4bqynts.jpg


"Force Feedback powered by Immersion Touchsense Technology and Logitech Force Feedback Technology. Protected by one or more of the Immersion Corporation patents listed in the included Installation Guide. Logitech patents pending."
 
Media bias.

A link to a post at a video game forum is not a news story. It's hilarious that large blogs such as Kotaku and Joystiq would run a "story" from a post at NeoGAF (which links to a post here at GTP). Even with it's anti-Sony rhetoric, Joystiq seems to be the most accurate, yet still runs the story with those inaccuracies in the headline. This is not too dissimilar from what happens with large news agencies such as Reuters and the Associated Press. They send out bulletins and the news media (CNN, Fox News, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc.) picks it up and runs it as news. It then filters down to blogs, news websites, Internet postings, radio, all the way down to your local news paper. Yet, if the original Reuters or AP story is false or fabricated, the damage is already done. Few, if any, will retract or correct the previous story.

Will Joystiq post a correction? No.

Will 1UP remove their post? No.

Will anyone pay attention to the corrections posted here at GTP or any other website? No.

Will countless fanboys have more ammunition for their flame-wars, sponsored by inaccurate information on popular gaming websites? Yes.
 
Jedi2016
This is getting utterly rediculous.

One jackass on this very forum, someone who clearly doesn't know the difference between rumble and force-feedback, makes an uninformed post and now the entire gaming community is in an uproar because news sites are posting that PS3 racing wheels won't have force-feedback.

For the longest time, people have been referring to rumble as "force-feedback", so that everyone thinks they're the same thing.

Those of us who have played with a DFP know what force-feedback is. It's when the wheel fights you, when it turns of it's own volition, jerking this way and that, in order to better simulate the feedback one would experience from the steering wheel of a car.

I've read the patents that Immersion is suing Sony over. They mention NOTHING OF THE KIND. Immersion's patents, and their entire lawsuit, is based SOLEY on the rumble feature of the DS/DS2 controllers. The patents specifically describe small motors attached to offset weights that produce a vibration when the motors are activated.

That's it. Rumble. Vibration. Immersion has NO say in Logitech's force-feedback technology. They are two COMPLETELY different technologies. The ONLY similarity between the two is that the console has to send information back to the controller. That's all. And I seriously doubt Immersion has patented something like that, something that's done entirely through software and a couple of wires. If they have, they've yet to mention it in their lawsuit.

So let's be clear about this: When Sony says that they don't support "force-feedback" in the controllers, they're talking about the RUMBLE feature of the old DS/DS2. They are NOT talking about the full-bore force-feedback of Logitech's wheels.

To sum up, the PS3 WILL support force-feedback in wheels, as we all know and love. Don't let the internet fool you because people are too stupid to see the difference between an apple and an orange.
Click to expand...


You miss the point, other Immersions patents include Force feedback (see Zeros post), it may not be the same Patent they are suing over, but Sony will not get licensing for it for any of their products until all legal issues are resolved, that could take a while!!!!Or do you seriously think Sony will jump into bed with immersion to get one patent while fighting them over another?
If u include me as a j/ass (clearly a bitter old man, remember anger leads to the dark side! ;-) ), of course i understand the difference between feedback and rumble, both would be nice to have, but i could live without the rumble!! But until Sony either conceeds to immersion or gets a judgement overturned which imho is very unlikely, we will have neither from any Sony Product! maybe PD or kaz should jump to EA!:crazy:
End result Gamers, in paricular, racers lose!! Collectors who play with hand controllers wont find this much to worry about though.
 
Soo...

Kotaku/Joystiq linked to 1UP who linked to NeoGAF who linked to this post on our very own GTP.

How hilarious.

And even more hilarious (maybe even sad) is seeing the Immersion patents in the G25 manual.

Oh God please help us.
 
The Immersion technology used by Logitech is on the software side, the programs needed to communicate back and forth with the controller/wheel/whatever.

Immersion's lawsuit is ONLY in regards to the physical motors inside the DS2 controller that makes it vibrate. It has nothing to do with their other technology.

And since it's only software, there's nothing to stop a developer from licensing that software on their own. We already know that PD has the software, they've already used it.
 
I agree with Jedi - there's more than one way to skin a cat. If Sony/PD cannot use "X" patent from Immersion, they will just design their own software to do it. Also, with as closely as logitech and PD seem to work, I highly doubt we would get a fell version of GT without FF. That's like making a flight simulator without the ability to use a joystick when one of the major participants in the development of the game is a joystick manufacturer. It would be a step backwards.

Furthermore, I find it funny that the original source of the information is a post on GTP, and yet we always insist on a NEWS SOURCE to verify information. It seems like circular reasoning to accept any of this as fact, just because a lazy journalist plucked a post from GTP to write a story.
 
Jedi2016
The Immersion technology used by Logitech is on the software side, the programs needed to communicate back and forth with the controller/wheel/whatever.

Immersion's lawsuit is ONLY in regards to the physical motors inside the DS2 controller that makes it vibrate. It has nothing to do with their other technology.

And since it's only software, there's nothing to stop a developer from licensing that software on their own. We already know that PD has the software, they've already used it.
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Exactly which is why EA are able to make use of it.
However PD owned and GT distributed by SONY, will still require licensing from immersion for the software in their games.
Sony while in the midst of lawsuit action arent about to get licensing to use it through their software neither are PD as they are under the wing of SCE.
If Sony lose their appeal, Software producers that havent met immersions licensing could also face Lawsuits.
The issue is complicated, but just because immersion have thus far only gone for big fish in Sony for breach of the rumble tech, doesnt mean at a later date they wont go for developers who have impinged on any of their patents, although The more likely circumstance is that all developers would simply fall into line and pay for immersions licensing,and immersion would control what that costs. but until the issue is finally decided one way or another, we the gamers lose out!

Minnesota that sexactly what got Sony into court in the first place and Sony lost to immersion.
Sony believed there rumble System was significantly different and therefore wasnt the same as immersions patented sytem, but the courts decided otherwise and that the end rumble result was similar enough.
So the software would have to do feedback significantly different to immersions patented system if they were to go that route, the end result of the feedback would also have to be significantly different, and therefore probably feel wrong, then im sure immersion would once again be tempted to challenge that through court if there was any similarity especially if they win the current case outright.
The Software would also not be allowed to make use of the ff of the logitech wheels, which do use immersions patented ff systems, because the software would be making use of immersions patents.as i said a very complicated issue indeed!
The only clear path for Sony right now would be to pay immersion, and if Sony lose there appeal that will be the only option, if they dont wont to risk more expensive legal action.
 
Also - Sony doesn't need licensing to sell a product - sony is the one who licenses other products for use with the play station. (the code may infringe upon Immersions's patents, but that's already happened once, so it could happen again.)

Finally - Sony doesn't even make racing wheels - logitech, madcatz, etc make wheels for playstation. As long as those companies get a license to use Immersion's patented technology, nothing will stop them from developing a FF Wheel for PS3.
 
We already have feedback wheels that can be used for PS3 (dfp and g25) its just that Sonys developers cant make use of it.
Sonys developers need licensing therefore PD. No Sony owned developer will be allowed by Sony to negotiate with immersion until all legal issues are resolved, it just wont happen for all sorts of possible legal ramifications. Sony will be holding tight reigns over this matter until the case is resolved if they have any sense.
Its all about law and money pure and simple, the lawyers could not care less about gamers right now.
Just because you impinge on someones patent once and nothing came of it doesnt mean you will get away with it again, especially if Sonys appeal goes against them.
 
GTXLR
Exactly which is why EA are able to make use of it.
However PD owned and GT distributed by SONY, will still require licensing from immersion for the software in their games.
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No, they don't. As I will mention later, you do not need to use the software to use FF. PD could just as easily write their own software to sync up with the code in GT5.
GTXLR
So the software would have to do feedback significantly different to immersions patented system if they were to go that route, the end result of the feedback would also have to be significantly different, and therefore probably feel wrong, then im sure immersion would once again be tempted to challenge that through court if there was any similarity especially if they win the current case outright.
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I think it is hilarious that you seem to thing the only way to do any kind of feedback is through Immersion. I have 4 third party controllers that make no mention of Immersion at all in any way on any documentation of the product, yet work find in the rumble department, with two of them working far better.
GTXLR
The Software would also not be allowed to make use of the ff of the logitech wheels, which do use immersions patented ff systems, because the software would be making use of immersions patents.as i said a very complicated issue indeed!
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Again, the SOFTWARE IS PATENTED. NOT THE HARDWARE. The software doesn't have to be used.
 
Also consider that, in order to use the DFP with GT4, PD had to have Immersion's software. Or their own proprietary software used to communicate with the DFP. Either way, it's outside the boundaries of the lawsuit.
 
^^^to the above posts, I cant find a license for immersion in GT4 so maybe you are right on that, also i know that it isnt part of the current lawsuit, but that doesnt mean they are free and clear in this highly contentious issue.
Its not what i want nor what i think could, would or should be done, its just how the the state of affairs are right now.
Feel free to think otherwise, but please state why you feel that there is no feedback with the DFP in the updated GTHD demo in the U.S or F1, if you think everything is that easy to work around.

Remember Sony means big money for immersion, most any other product manufacturer on the market is not going to be worth the lawyers fees to pursue!

To me, its a simple business decision, in that Its just that Sony are being called to book by immersion, and its already cost huge amounts of money to Sony.
Sony dare not at this time do anything which would add more fuel to immersion's case.
Currently its the reason Sony dont have rumble controllers or force feedback in any Sony produced titles, whatever the unofficial or officailly stated reasons are.
I dont think you will see any Sony Branded Software making use of any rumble/ff system until the legal issues are solved and challenge anyone to prove otherwise.
If you think PD/Sony are going to try and bend those rules again while going through the litigation I think you need to think again.
Sony refuse to budge on the issue, where microsoft conceeded, and as a result Sony will not deal with immersion for other licenses, nor would they leave themselves open to even more potential proceedings, by trying to work around them. Once the appeal is finished and case law analysed, then the lawyers and developers will be able to try and work around it.
But for now, as a result PS3 gamers currently lose out.

It is for this reason that all gamers regardless of what you believe, should be making noise about the issue, if everybody is apathetic about it Sony will simply drag this on and on and you deserve what you get. They need to know that its gamers want this issue Sorting out, we demand the best from their expensive products, the Consumer is king, demand what you want, dont suffer what could be fixed and in a system this high spec should be expected, Sony need to know that some will turn there backs and some will outright laugh in Sonys face. Being number one in the console industry is a fickle place to be, you've got to deliver if you want to stay there and be ahead of the competition!
Sony are already behind in many areas right now and the crown is slipping! And the competion are squaring up for the fight.



edit: Tornado are any of the products you mention with superior rumble, force feedback wheels?

Edit2: it seems i may not have to worry, if SCEJ are using feedback technology maybe SCEE ps3's will also get it too. It seems the legal battle only affects SCEA. Immersion hold far less patents in europe and japan. If that is the case will you all still be so content with the situation while the rest of the world makes use of their DFP and G25 with force feedback.
Read into this what you will.

!!!!!STOP NOTICE!!!!!!
I conceed, Forget everything i said about the patents/software and hardware in regard to PS3, its all to do with Sony and immersion court case PS2 dual shock, no deals can or will be done until either Sony drops the appeals (immersions stipulation to sony for providing rumble/ff tech for ps3), the judgement is overturned or Sony pays out if they lose again.

Edit3:
heres some reading you might like to peruse: http://www.businessweek.com/innovat...964.htm?chan=innovation_game+room_top+stories
SCEA stubborn? Nah! watch out Nintendo!

Edit 4:
I put it to you that (imo) currently SCEJ with ps3 and GTHD is not infringing on any of immersions patents in japan, the fact that there is no rumble controller and no case pending, which was the only issue .The only reason U.S users are unable to use forcefeedback in the DFP and G25 in any of Sonys software in the U.S is because of the on going unsettled legal dispute, because immersion will not deal with SCEA unless they stop there appeals.
This would explain the updates of the japanese version of GTHD: It removed access to feedback technology for Consoles which were made for the U.S. but still allows japenese consoles to access the feedback.
The release of the original Demo hadnt made allowance that some u.s users would make Japan accounts and download the japenese Version of the demo, this was quickly realised and updated to prevent any users in the u.s from accessing the feedback in the japanese demo.
So my fingers are crossed that the SCEJ situation will be the same siuation in europe.
 
Maybe we should send a formal letter to 1UP (or anyone else who linked to them) asking them to correct their story?
 
Its innacurate because The Sony Spokesman wont declare the real reason gamers in the u.s are unable to benefit from forcefeedback, instead they choose to talk nonsense.
IMO formal letters to Sony might be more useful.
 
So what is the plan people? I vote we beg Sony to license the Immersion technology in a SIXAXIS DUAL SHOCK III controller and we the consumer will wear the cost...thereby allowing tactile feedback in all games and most importantly to us...GT5! I want feedback in the Clutch pedal already...

I have this bad feeling Sony are playing hardball with Immersion and saying..."you won't let us use rumble in our controllers so we wont let any of your licensees use any of the Immersion tactile features (licensed FFB in Logitech wheels for example)" thereby denying Immersion of royalties from Sony Console based games. Childish tit for tat at our expense...this is my humble paranoid upset opinion mind you...
 
dbarrade
So what is the plan people? I vote we beg Sony to license the Immersion technology in a SIXAXIS DUAL SHOCK III controller and we the consumer will wear the cost...thereby allowing tactile feedback in all games and most importantly to us...GT5! I want feedback in the Clutch pedal already...

I have this bad feeling Sony are playing hardball with Immersion and saying..."you won't let us use rumble in our controllers so we wont let any of your licensees use any of the Immersion tactile features (licensed FFB in Logitech wheels for example)" thereby denying Immersion of royalties from Sony Console based games. Childish tit for tat at our expense...this is my humble paranoid upset opinion mind you...
Click to expand...

They won't be able to have a SIXAXIS Dualshock. The vibration will interfere with the gyros and other motion sensing parts.
 
Ebiggs
They won't be able to have a SIXAXIS Dualshock. The vibration will interfere with the gyros and other motion sensing parts.
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Then how come the Wii has it?

The rumble isn't in the Sixaxis because of legal issues, not because it wouldn't work. Hell, Immersion had prototype controllers that had the Sixaxis tech (or something similar) with rumble and said if Sony paid up the fees, they'd help put rumble in the Sixaxis.
 
Ebiggs
They won't be able to have a SIXAXIS Dualshock. The vibration will interfere with the gyros and other motion sensing parts.
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What Duck said. Do you REALLY think that Sony would actually come out and say that the reason it's not there is because of a lawsuit? Come now.. you don't actually believe that BS about interefering with the motion sensors, especially when Immersion says it will work, and Nintendo already has it?
 
Here is the link to the Immersion controller to rival the SIXAXIS

https://edimensional.com/product_in...d=118&osCsid=dbfad8a0ff038b30ad8999345a396d48

This looks as tacky as it sounds:

Featuring Immersion TouchSense Force Feedback Technology! The G-Pad Pro is the world's only motion sensing gamepad with built-in rumble.

Experience dramatically increased realism and interactivity with any type of racing or flying game, even first person shooters and role playing games. Adjust the sensitivity on-the-fly so you can game in your own style. You can even turn the motion sensing on or off with the touch of a button. Available now, the G-Pad Pro includes features you won't find even in the next generation systems including force feedback, macro support for rapid multi-key execution (PS2), a compact and comfortable design and an internal LED for a custom look.
 
By most accounts it sounds like Sony is acting like a bunch spoiled brats at the expense of us, the consumers. :grumpy: It's high time somebody beat some sense back into the cocky juggernaut, lest it squanders what's left of its lead in the home gaming console market.
 
L8 Apex
By most accounts it sounds like Sony is acting like a bunch spoiled brats at the expense of us, the consumers. :grumpy: It's high time somebody beat some sense back into the cocky juggernaut, lest it squanders what's left of its lead in the home gaming console market.
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I'd like to see you fork out 91 million for rumble.
 
You dont read much do you? PS3 "games" do have force feedback. GT5 is 1 year or so off, there's been no offcial word on the rumor that started here.
 
No, you're the one that obviously doesn't read much, it appears that even a short sentence is too much for you. Let me put it to you in simpler terms, maybe this way you'll understand my post (I doubt it to be honest):

The rumour may or may not be true, all I said is: if there is no FF I'm not buying the PS3/GT5. That's all! Since in this world most people, well, OK, some people are responsible for their actions I get to chose what I want to do and be responsible for it.;)
 
What rumor are you talking about? no Force Feeback in all PS3 games or in GT5? I'm just tired of seeing posts like yours after the facts of Force Feeback being present in PS3 games. You simplified your statement and thats what you get. There is FF in PS3 games bottom line. I'm helping you understand a fact not a rumor.
 
Cobra_UK
No FF no GT5/PS3 for me...
Click to expand...
LaBounti
You dont read much do you? PS3 "games" do have force feedback. GT5 is 1 year or so off, there's been no offcial word on the rumor that started here.
Click to expand...
Cobra_UK
No, you're the one that obviously doesn't read much, it appears that even a short sentence is too much for you. Let me put it to you in simpler terms, maybe this way you'll understand my post (I doubt it to be honest):

The rumour may or may not be true, all I said is: if there is no FF I'm not buying the PS3/GT5. That's all! Since in this world most people, well, OK, some people are responsible for their actions I get to chose what I want to do and be responsible for it.;)
Click to expand...
LaBounti
What rumor are you talking about? no Force Feeback in all PS3 games or in GT5? I'm just tired of seeing posts like yours after the facts of Force Feeback being present in PS3 games. You simplefied your statement and thats what you get. There is FF in PS3 games bottom line. I'm helping you understand a fact not a rumor.
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CobraUK, if you used commas, your sentence would read "No FF, no GT5/PS3 for me...", that would make more sense, and there wouldn't be any confusion.

LaBounti, Cobra is saying that if GT5 doesn't have force feedback (which I doubt), he's not going to buy a PS3 (probably since GT5 is the biggest reason he'd get one in the first place).

Some PS3 racing games do have force feedback. However, I doubt there'll be as many FFB compatible racing games as there were last-gen.
 

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