FORMULA 1™ Magyar Nagydíj 2007

[Danoff]

They need to introduce ground effects and rely less on the aero downforce or something like that. This is what ChampCar and GP2 is doing. With ground effects, you can stay close to the car in front without losing grip.

I'm sure if it were advantageous teams would be doing it. In fact, I'm willing to bet that much of what goes on under the car is exactly that.

 

[Only_in_f1]

I noticed that Ron Dennis was barely hiding his anger at Lewis Hamilton before the race yesterday... he only just avoided referring to Lewis directly when he commented that (I paraphrase) "This is what happens when people don't stick to the game plan..."

This about Hamilton should have let Alonso through when they came out the pits?
I dont think he can blame Hamilton for that, correct me if im wrong but Alonso made a mistake and dropped way off the back of Hamilton into the clutches of Kimi and Hamilton didn't want to let both through and rightly so.

But maybe he should have let him through earlier.

I agree with what has been said about the grip when driving behind cars. It should be changed. When a driver who was driving in that race says it 'was boring' from his point of view because there was nothing he can do must mean something is wrong. The race its self was boring, you know when it is when all the replays are of cars going 2/3 foot off the track.

 

[Metar]

It is - to an extent. And from what I read about in analysis-sites, this specific type of ground-effects is the wrong type of ground-effects. I don't know exactly how it works, but with the raised nosecone, and with the front wing diverting air to the underbody, the efficiency of the diffuser is greatly improved. However, airflow under the body is very unstable while in the draft of another car, so it basically removes even more downforce. Again, this isn't ground-effects in the way it's commonly refered to - the Brabham Suckercar, the skirts, etc (because of flat underbody rules) - but it is, in a way, since it relies on faster, denser air passing below the car, aiding the diffuser to stick the rear better.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

So, who now thinks that the Mercedes-Alonso&Hamilton-are-really-good-friends advert was a good idea?

I'd be willing to bet it was shot close to the start of the season, if not possibly before then.

I dont think he can blame Hamilton for that, correct me if im wrong but Alonso made a mistake and dropped way off the back of Hamilton into the clutches of Kimi and Hamilton didn't want to let both through and rightly so.

Which makes sense on why Hamilton didn't slow down.

But maybe he should have let him through earlier.

If his boss tells him to do something, as long as it is legal, he should do it no matter how disadvantageous it is, or how incorrect the decision may be, but at least Hamilton has admitted that he disobeyed that order, and it is unlikely he will ever do that again any time soon.

However, that in no way excuses what Alonso did, and so far no "radio evidence" that Alonso was ordered to stay in the pits has ever been confirmed, or that it was some kind of team punishment for Hamilton. That was obviously damage control in hopes to keep both drivers at the front of the grid... and it's fairly clear the stewards saw right through it after listening to all the team radio chatter, and viewing video footage from the incident in the pits.

Frankly, Alonso should be grateful they didn't make him start from pit lane, like they made Schummy do in Monaco last year.

 

[Danny]

Well if they shot it now, they'd probably force a pretence of friendship, even if just to keep Ron Dennis happy.

After all that's gone on, I still want Alonso to win the Championship, if not Massa.

 

[Blake]

I'm sure if it were advantageous teams would be doing it. In fact, I'm willing to bet that much of what goes on under the car is exactly that.

Well ground effects are difficult to create with the flat floors that F1 cars have. Especially since they are raised so high due to the skid-block. The diffuser is really the only way to create ground effects and, although it creates some 40% of an F1 cars total downforce, it does not produce enough downforce relative to the downforce produced on-top of the car to allow cars to follow each-other closely.

The front-wing also produced ground-effects (the underside of the front-wing acting just like the diffuser), but this is almost nothing since the out-edges of the wings were raised twice in recent years.

But I think we’re talking about genuine ground effects with sculpted floors…

 

[Touring Mars]

This about Hamilton should have let Alonso through when they came out the pits?
I dont think he can blame Hamilton for that, correct me if im wrong but Alonso made a mistake and dropped way off the back of Hamilton into the clutches of Kimi and Hamilton didn't want to let both through and rightly so.
.

Hamilton did what he thought was best for himself, but by doing so he chose to ignore a direct instruction from the team boss. I don't know when the order was first given to let Alonso past - I'd assume pretty early in their out lap, but Hamilton refused to yield from the moment he got the instruction. He claims it was a split second decision, but there shouldn't have been a decision for him to make... the decision had already been made by Ron Dennis, and Hamilton should have obeyed the instruction, but he elected not to. Not only that, he threw a hissy fit about it afterwards too, and even had the brass neck to tell Dennis 'Don't ever ****** do that to me again.' - I'm sorry, but if Hamilton thinks he can call the shots and ignore the instructions from his boss from this point forward, he's sadly mistaken.

Knowing the reality, Alonso & Hamilton should be nominated for an oscar.

 

[Only_in_f1]

Hamilton did what he thought was best for himself, but by doing so he chose to ignore a direct instruction from the team boss.

And the order (I've heard) was given pits while waiting to go out, thats why Alonso was nearly side-by-side with Hamilton. So Hamilton was stupid to ignore the instruction.

Personally i think Alonso would have done the same,he doesn't want to give an inch to anyone, especially Hamilton. But your right he had no place to have a go at Ron Dennis.

 

[picklesam]

now that i think about it i think Ron Dennis shot himself in the foot by grabbing Alonso's physio...if he hadn't reacted the way he did the press/commentators wouldnt have made such a big deal out of it...and really there's no reason for Ron to get pissed anyway, hamilton had already set a time that ferrari could not top, his drivers are in the top 2 anyway, there's no need to react like he did unless he wants lewis to be on pole instead...


and as for the heated arguement with ron and lewis, i see it as a typical father/son arguement..

 

[livemusic]

Personally i think Alonso would have done the same,he doesn't want to give an inch to anyone, especially Hamilton. But your right he had no place to have a go at Ron Dennis.

I don't know if he would do the same. They've been exchanging this position in every race, I heard that's how it works. This weekend was Alonso's time to leave in front but Hamilton didn't obey.

 

[Only_in_f1]

I don't know if he would do the same. They've been exchanging this position in every race, I heard that's how it works. This weekend was Alonso's time to leave in front but Hamilton didn't obey.

Ah sorry didnt know that.

I think Alonso wouldn't want to let 2 cars through, that Hamilton might have had to do if he let Alonso through. (Alonso and Kimi)

 

[Touring Mars]

I feel very sorry for Ron Dennis - this is the first time in many years that McLaren have been right up there at the sharp end in every race, two superb drivers, tops of the constructor's championship, and yet the photo of him in today's Guardian said it all - he looks miserable. Obviously, the pressure is on when you're at the top, and small things can get blown way out of proportion - but Ron needs to stamp his 'authoritah' on the team quickly...

 

[GilesGuthrie]

I agree. The season break couldn't have come at a better time for Ron. He'll have an excellent opportunity to defuse the situation within the team. Practically everyone within McLaren in Hungary was to blame for the antics last weekend. It really should have been better handled.

 

[darkfinal]

If Lewis' dad didn't report that to the stewards, the FIA most likely wouldn't have investigated it.

 

[Sureboss]

I feel very sorry for Ron Dennis - this is the first time in many years that McLaren have been right up there at the sharp end in every race, two superb drivers, tops of the constructor's championship, and yet the photo of him in today's Guardian said it all - he looks miserable. Obviously, the pressure is on when you're at the top, and small things can get blown way out of proportion - but Ron needs to stamp his 'authoritah' on the team quickly...

Tbh, he often looks unhappy. Emotionless, on the Paxman scale (5 being unable to show any emotion whatsoever and thus being called the Paxman scale) I'd give him a 3.


*I in no way made up the Paxman scale....

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I agree. The season break couldn't have come at a better time for Ron. He'll have an excellent opportunity to defuse the situation within the team. Practically everyone within McLaren in Hungary was to blame for the antics last weekend. It really should have been better handled.

Couldn’t agree with you more. If Ron Dennis can turn the McLaren ship around and get these two drivers talking and on the same side, to go along with Hamilton's and Alonso's Oscar nominations, I’d even be willing to nominate Ron Dennis for the Nobel Peace Prize.

If Lewis' dad didn't report that to the stewards, the FIA most likely wouldn't have investigated it.

Huh? What do you mean by "that".

Are you saying that despite the fact that hundreds of F1 commentators and countless millions of TV viewers around the world witnessed Alonso sitting in the pits an extra 10 seconds after the lollipop was raised, and catching Ron Dennis' visceral grab of Alonso's physical therapist immediately afterwards... and that the result of Alonso's "extended" pit stop prevented Hamilton for getting in his light hot lap in... and despite all of this, the only reason the stewards were going to investigate this was because a driver's father complains??? Huh?





While trying to look up any news about how Hamilton's father may have been involved, I made a mistake of looking through the Formula 1 forum hosted by Telecino (Tele 5), the largest TV broadcaster in Spain not run by the state.

I have never read such racist comments in my life, and they weren't just from this week either, nor limited to only a few of the same members. If you look back even several weeks you'll see the same kind of disgusting derogatory remarks about black people, the British, and especially Hamilton and his father who they seem to take great delight in comparing them to monkeys.

If this is the kind of audience some Spanish media are trying to sell papers to, it's no wonder why some often sound so visceral and why they are many times filled with as much garbage as a NYC land fill, and as many lies as can be found in a weekly rag like the National Enquirer. 👎

 

[ExigeEvan]

Political correctness isn't as developed in Spanish culture. While I admit that that is no excuse for outwardly racist remarks, you must realise the culture first.

[EDIT] Then again you understand what is said so you probably know that already.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Political correctness isn't as developed in Spanish culture. While I admit that that is no excuse for outwardly racist remarks, you must realise the culture first.

[EDIT] Then again you understand what is said so you probably know that already.

Yes, my mother is Puerto Rican, and my brother in-law, Aitor is Basque.

I love the Basque country side, incredibly beautiful... and a great place for hill-climbing cycling, but the community is a bit rough around the edges if you know what I mean.

 

[Danoff]

Political correctness isn't as developed in Spanish culture. While I admit that that is no excuse for outwardly racist remarks, you must realise the culture first.

I'm going to have to remember that for the next time I offend someone with a non-PC remark.

"No, it's ok. You see, it's not part of my culture to be PC."

 

[darkfinal]

Huh? What do you mean by "that".

Are you saying that despite the fact that hundreds of F1 commentators and countless millions of TV viewers around the world witnessed Alonso sitting in the pits an extra 10 seconds after the lollipop was raised, and catching Ron Dennis' visceral grab of Alonso's physical therapist immediately afterwards... and that the result of Alonso's "extended" pit stop prevented Hamilton for getting in his light hot lap in... and despite all of this, the only reason the stewards were going to investigate this was because a driver's father complains??? Huh?

Right, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that. But still, the one to complain first to the FIA was him, and that's a very dirty move IMHO. What was he thinking about? Did he think they'd ban Alonso from the race, with McLaren still scoring points? I bet Hamilton Jr. wasn't the only one getting a few rough words from Ron.

Yes, my mother is Puerto Rican, and my brother in-law, Aitor is Basque.

I love the Basque country side, incredibly beautiful... and a great place for hill-climbing cycling, but the community is a bit rough around the edges if you know what I mean

For the love of god... I'm Basque, and my name's Aitor.

While trying to look up any news about how Hamilton's father may have been involved, I made a mistake of looking through the Formula 1 forum hosted by Telecino (Tele 5), the largest TV broadcaster in Spain not run by the state.

I have never read such racist comments in my life, and they weren't just from this week either, nor limited to only a few of the same members. If you look back even several weeks you'll see the same kind of disgusting derogatory remarks about black people, the British, and especially Hamilton and his father who they seem to take great delight in comparing them to monkeys.

If this is the kind of audience some Spanish media are trying to sell papers to, it's no wonder why some often sound so visceral and why they are many times filled with as much garbage as a NYC land fill, and as many lies as can be found in a weekly rag like the National Enquirer.

That's why I 'offered' you to come visit Spain someday, and talk about F1 here. I would even say we have the highest level of fascist patriotism per capita, honestly, no matter how ********ed a sportsman is - if he's spanish, he'll be the best in the world, and his/her competitors, a bunch of black/brit/frenchies/american morons, and so on... Hell, two days ago I almost got beaten down for trying to show someone that his super Alonso-biased opinion was simply wrong. Of course, that's the kind of people that have no idea about sports, other than they've heard in TV...

 

[Sureboss]

Couldn’t agree with you more. If Ron Dennis can turn the McLaren ship around and get these two drivers talking and on the same side, to go along with Hamilton's and Alonso's Oscar nominations, I’d even be willing to nominate Ron Dennis for the Nobel Peace Prize.





Huh? What do you mean by "that".

Are you saying that despite the fact that hundreds of F1 commentators and countless millions of TV viewers around the world witnessed Alonso sitting in the pits an extra 10 seconds after the lollipop was raised, and catching Ron Dennis' visceral grab of Alonso's physical therapist immediately afterwards... and that the result of Alonso's "extended" pit stop prevented Hamilton for getting in his light hot lap in... and despite all of this, the only reason the stewards were going to investigate this was because a driver's father complains??? Huh?





While trying to look up any news about how Hamilton's father may have been involved, I made a mistake of looking through the Formula 1 forum hosted by Telecino (Tele 5), the largest TV broadcaster in Spain not run by the state.

I have never read such racist comments in my life, and they weren't just from this week either, nor limited to only a few of the same members. If you look back even several weeks you'll see the same kind of disgusting derogatory remarks about black people, the British, and especially Hamilton and his father who they seem to take great delight in comparing them to monkeys.

If this is the kind of audience some Spanish media are trying to sell papers to, it's no wonder why some often sound so visceral and why they are many times filled with as much garbage as a NYC land fill, and as many lies as can be found in a weekly rag like the National Enquirer. 👎

Not surprising, it's rife in football stadia in Spain. And of course when the Spanish national coach racially abused Henry and still kept his job. (can't remember his name atm).

Racism is bone chilling.

 

[Only_in_f1]

Luis Aragones?
Its not right, there no place for it anywhere sport or daily life.

 

[darkfinal]

Luis Aragonés.... Another reason why I gave up on spanish soccer.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

For the love of god... I'm Basque, and my name's Aitor.

Seriously, or are you just yanking my chain? What are the odds of that? Although I have never asked him how common his name is in Spain... but there are not a whole lot of Basque, so there can't be too many Aitors that are Basque running around... especialy in Texas where Aitor now lives.

Now if you say you are also from the Gipuzkoa province... well then we are really lowering the odds!

Do you happen to know of any of the Zurutuza clan from the Goierri region?

 

[darkfinal]

Seriously, or are you just yanking my chain? What are the odds of that? Although I have never asked him how common his name is in Spain... but there are not a whole lot of Basque, so there can't be too many Aitors that are Basque running around... especialy in Texas where Aitor now lives.

Now if you say you are also from the Gipuzkoa province... well then we are really lowering the odds!

Do you happen to know of any of the Zurutuza clan from the Goierri region?

No, not exactly... I was born in Barcelona, and hence I consider myself half catalan, half basque, from father's heritage. So, I'm not Gupuzkoan... But hey, I'm Catalan. That's better!

And nope, Aitor is quite uncommon, at least outside Euskadi. I happen to be the only Aitor in my town, proven.

[/OFFTOPIC]

 

[The Cheef]

Heres the official McLaren statement the night before the race regarding the happenings that took place during qualifying.

Got it off http://www.mclaren.co.uk/latestnews/mclaren.php

"The process of managing two such exceptional talents as Fernando and Lewis is made more challenging by having a race winning car.

Every effort was made yesterday by the team to maintain our policy of equality; however in the heat of the battle there are occasions when the competitive nature of drivers sees them deviate from the agreed procedures.

During this intense and frenetic period of qualifying, decisions are necessarily made in seconds to enable the drivers and the team to position their cars on the track at the optimal moment.

We agree with the stewards, that when the team decided to hold Fernando for 20 seconds there were four cars on the circuit. However, we do not understand the relevance of this observation as the team needed to estimate where all the remaining cars would be in the final minutes of the session. Similarly the team does not agree with the statement of the stewards that the 20 second hold caused Lewis to be impeded. Tensions were undeniably high and the problem at Fernando’s first stop; the desire to enter a clear track and concerns expressed following the fitting of used tyres undoubtedly contributed to the delay in Fernando’s ultimate departure.

We do not believe that the findings of the stewards and the severe penalty imposed on the team are appropriate, and that our strenuous efforts to maintain the spirit of fair play and equality within the team have been misunderstood.

We are, however, now only hours away from an important race and are focusing all our efforts on achieving the best possible result for the drivers."

I like the part that says, "the team does not agree with the statement of the stewards that the 20 second hold caused Lewis to be impeded..." hahaha... yeah right...

 

[Touring Mars]

I'm inclined to agree with McLaren - if they had impeded another team, then fine - they should be penalised. But they made a team call based on the logic that they wanted to give Alonso the best chance of improvement, given that it was a 50/50 call and Hamilton already had provisional pole...

BTW, I also know a guy called Aitor, and he is Basque as well 👍

 

[Sureboss]

Luis Aragones?
Its not right, there no place for it anywhere sport or daily life.

That's the bloke.

So, 3 weeks till Turkey, is that enough for F1 to cool down a bit? It'll almost certainly take a step back once the EPL get's going again, right?

 

[Brett]

Heres the official McLaren statement the night before the race regarding the happenings that took place during qualifying. ( . . . )

Why can McLaren not talk about the additional ten seconds after those initial twenty seconds when Alonso just sat there after the lollipop was raised? The initial twenty seconds were not the problem, it was the additional ten seconds where he just sat there and did not move that was the impeding of Hamilton. It seems they just want to ignore that fact. I am basing this opinion off of what D-N posted earlier.

He waited exactly 10 additional seconds.
2:15 Alonso starts final pit stop.
2:08 (7 seconds) Pit Stop is completed, but lollipop man holds Alonso.
1:48 (20 seconds) Lollipop man finally lifts the lollipop, but Aonso doesn't budge.
1:38 (10 seconds) Alonso finally leaves.
1:55 Hamilton slowly moves in behind Alonso.
1:33 (22 seconds) Hamilton can finally start his pit stop.
1:27 (6 seconds) Hamilton completes his stop and quickly departs.
What's worse is that Alonso's delay was clearly not for traffic as there was a wide open track in front of Kimi had he left when his stop was finished. Instead, his "delay" caused him to come out right in front of Kimi on a hot lap, which meant he had to slow down and let Kimi pass.

 

[m7ammed]

here is how the stewards see it
Taken from ITV-F1.com

During the final minutes of qualifying, the car driven by Fernando Alonso remained in its pit stop position at the completion of his pit stop notwithstanding the fact that his team-mate Lewis Hamilton was waiting immediately behind him to commence his own pit stop.
The delay prevented Hamilton from being able to complete his final flying lap of qualifying.


The team principal, together with the team manager and both drivers, were called before the Stewards and asked to explain their actions.
Reference was made to video and audio evidence. The facts and the explanation given by the team are as follows:


At the commencement of the third period of the qualifying practice it had been agreed within the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes Team ("the team") that Fernando Alonso would leave the pit exit ahead of Lewis Hamilton in order to benefit from the possibility for purposes of fuel burn allowance of being able to complete an additional lap.


In the event, the car driven by Lewis Hamilton arrived at the pit exit before that of Fernando Alonso and when the pit lane opened he left in front of Alonso.


The team required Hamilton by radio communication to allow Alonso to pass in order that he might endeavour to complete his extra lap.


Because of the proximity of the Ferrari driven by Kimi Raikkonen, however, Hamilton declined to allow Alonso to pass despite repeated requests from the team to do so.


Reference to the radio communications passing between the team and its two drivers shows that the team told Hamilton at 14:56:44 to "box this lap" and required him to do a "hard in-lap" but advised him some 32 seconds later to "slow the pace a little, just lose a couple of seconds before the end of the lap because Fernando is pitting in front of you".


At 14:57:34, just 18 seconds later, Alonso was told that when he pitted "we are going to hold you for 20 seconds".


At 14:57:46 Alonso's car arrived at his pit stop position, his tyres were changed and the jacks removed just 6 seconds later.


The car then remained in position from 14:57:52 to 14:58:12 when the signal known as the "lollipop" was raised indicating that the driver was free to leave.


By this time Hamilton's car had arrived and stopped immediately behind that of Alonso.


Alonso, instead of leaving his pit in order that his team-mate Hamilton could complete his pit stop, remained in position for a further 10 seconds.
He then left the pit lane in sufficient time to reach the Control Line before the end of qualifying, completed a flying lap in which he set the fastest time and secured pole position.


Because of the delay caused by Alonso, Hamilton was unable to complete his pit stop in time sufficient to enable him also to complete a flying lap.
The team were asked to explain why, having indicated to Hamilton that he must stop at his pit on the next lap, they then informed Alonso whilst he was still on the track that when he also pitted on the next lap he would be held for 20 seconds.


The team stated that they frequently give estimates as to duration of pit stop to their drivers before they pit and that the reason the car was in fact held for 20 seconds was that it was being counted down prior to release at a beneficial time regard being given to other cars on the track.


Alonso was asked why he waited for some 10 seconds before leaving the pits after being given the signal to leave. His response was that he was enquiring as to whether the correct set of tyres had been fitted to his car.
When asked why this conversation did not take place during the 20-second period when his car sat stationary all work on it having been completed, it was stated that it was not possible to communicate by radio because of the countdown being given to him.


Reference to the circuit map shows that at the time Alonso was told he would be held for 20 seconds there were but 4 cars on the circuit, his own and those of Fisichella, Hamilton and Raikkonen.


All but Raikkonen entered the pits such that there can have been no necessity to keep Alonso in the pits for 20 seconds waiting for a convenient gap in traffic in which to leave.


The explanation given by Alonso as to why at the expiration of the 20 second period he remained in his pit stop position for a further 10 seconds is not accepted.


The Stewards find that he unnecessarily impeded another driver, Hamilton, and as a result he will be penalised by a loss of 5 grid positions.


The explanation given by the team as to why they kept Alonso stationary for 20 seconds after completion of his tyre change and therefore delayed Hamilton's own pit stop is not accepted.


The actions of the team in the final minutes of qualifying are considered prejudicial to the interests of the competition and to the interests of motor sport generally.


The penalty to be applied is that such points (if any) in the 2007 Formula 1 constructors' championship as accrue to the team as a result of their participation in the 2007 Hungarian Grand Prix wilt be withdrawn.
The team is reminded of its right of appeal.