Formula 1 Eni Magyar Nagydíj 2012

[Sureboss]

Rubbin' isn't racing? I'm sorry but when you have two drivers racing for the same piece of tarmac, contact will sometimes happen. It's inevitable. Sure, avoiding contact seems easy enough when you're watching from your sofa. But in reality it's not so simple. Although some of his incidents this year have been ridiculous this, in my opinion, wasn't one of them.

That was less rubbin' and more bumping off the track to gain a position. All other points are valid, however, it is still his responsibility to overtake fairly, he obviously didn't plan on oversteering in to di Resta, it was still an unfair move, regardless of being deliberate or not. If he'd just backed off the throttle a bit and let di Resta pass him he'd have not lost 15s in the pits.

Not the most entertaining of races, but nice to see Lewis win and Lotus to pick up two podiums. Ferrari could be in the unusual position of winning the WDC and finishing fourth in the constructors. Anyone know if that would be a new record?

 

[hawkeye122]

I haven't heard anything about traction control, it was the engine mapping, decreasing torque at lower RPM and delivering a smoother torque output so they can get on the throttle earlier in low-grip situations and as the throttle is open for more time around the circuit, the exhaust is throwing out more gas more of the time, which is aimed at the diffuser.

Reducing maximum torque, allowing more liberal usage of the throttle? Sounds like traction control, albeit, a really low-tech form of it.

 

[csmeteora9]

Lol, but with P.Maldonado contact will always happen 👎
That I'm sure is why the penalty was given.

Uh huh. Which is why I said...

Although some of his incidents this year have been ridiculous this, in my opinion, wasn't one of them.

That was less rubbin' and more bumping off the track to gain a position. All other points are valid, however, it is still his responsibility to overtake fairly, he obviously didn't plan on oversteering in to di Resta, it was still an unfair move, regardless of being deliberate or not.

It was unfair yes, but not intentional. So a penalty was harsh in my opinion. This is a personal view but I believe he should have been forced to let Paul retake the position instead.

 

[hawkeye122]

It was unfair yes, but not intentional. So a penalty was harsh in my opinion. This is a personal view but I believe he should have been forced to let Paul retake the position instead.

Noone intentionally drops plates on the kitchen floor... But after 9 or 10, my Mum sacked me from doing the dishes.

The first one I dropped "Oh no worries"
Second time "Ok, come on now. Shame on you"
Third time "Alright, you owe me for that one"


Purely a metaphor, but still.

 

[DaxCobra]

Reducing maximum torque, allowing more liberal usage of the throttle? Sounds like traction control, albeit, a really low-tech form of it.

Traction control is where something reacts to wheel slip, this is just engine mapping.

 

[hawkeye122]

Traction control is where something reacts to wheel slip, this is just engine mapping.

Hence the "Low tech"...

Right, and they had the mapping set-up to give lower torque (Reduce wheelspin).

Niky mentioned it too. I'm not the only one who sees it this way.

And here, so did the BBC

The FIA's concern in Germany was that Red Bull were using reduced torque settings for a given engine speed. It felt these could act as a form of traction control, limiting wheelspin out of corners.

And Speed, the USA's F1 broadcaster...

In the wake of the Hockenheim controversy about Red Bull's reportedly legal traction control

And Autosport

This suggests that the maximum torque demand seen in the middle of the rev range is lower than the FIA knows the engine to be capable of from previous races. This would mean that the relationship between throttle pedal position and torque demand is therefore not linear, creating a traction control-style effect.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Rubbin' isn't racing?

Good Lord, man - which backwoods hamlet did you wander out of? This isn't stock car racing that we're talking about. It's Formula 1. There's no place for "rubbin'" with an apostorphe and no g in the sport. The fact that you think there is shows that you are uniquely unqualified to assess the situation. Formula 1 cars are finely-tuned pieces of performance engineering that do not tolerate rough treatment. They are not backyard specials being driven by local yokels in an outtake from The Dukes of Hazzard. Contact can - and frequently does - end with cars in the wall, an outcome nobody wants. And yet you welcome it with such gay abandon and no thought for the consequences of such reckless on-track behavior, as if Formula 1 is a full-contact sport intended to cater to the bloodlust of spectators who only watch motorsport for the spectacle of collisions that end in thirty million dollars' worth of carbon fibre disintegrating in the blink of an eye, that I cannot help but wonder if the race in Hungary was your first experience of a Grand Prix. If it was, you will be sorely mistaken.

"Rubbin'", indeed. I suppose you think The Fast and the Furious is not only the pinnacle of entertainment, but cinema's greatest achievement.

 

[DaxCobra]

It's like saying a knife and a gun are the same thing...

Sure Traction Control and the Red Bull engine mapping are attacking the same problem, but Traction Control is run off of sensors, and it will react according to what the car is doing, and depending on the type of traction control, it will cut the throttle back, or limit boost (on Turbo/SC cars) etc.

The Engine Mapping doesn't change to react to wheelspin...

 

[hawkeye122]

It's like saying a knife and a gun are the same thing...

Sure Traction Control and the Red Bull engine mapping are attacking the same problem, but Traction Control is run off of sensors, and it will react according to what the car is doing, and depending on the type of traction control, it will cut the throttle back, or limit boost (on Turbo/SC cars) etc.

The Engine Mapping doesn't change to react to wheelspin...

Fine, you're right, and the Super moderator, myself, and the worlds Motor Racing news outlets are wrong.

Red Bull were "Controlling" the amount of "Traction" they were getting(Or not getting). Since TC is banned, they did it at the ECU.

The FIA said it was a form of Traction Control.

Please, keep arguing with me.

 

[TheBook]

It was unfair yes, but not intentional. So a penalty was harsh in my opinion. This is a personal view but I believe he should have been forced to let Paul retake the position instead.

The penalty was not for intentional contact. It was for avoidable contact. Had Maldonado not barged in from three car lengths back, he would have avoided hitting di Resta. Penalty sounds fair to me.

 

[evertV12]

What a nice race for Hungary. Senna beating Maldonado and some other hotshots.
All three thumbs up for HAM, RAI and PIC. Really you guys raced like no other.

 

[homeforsummer]

It's like saying a knife and a gun are the same thing...

Sure Traction Control and the Red Bull engine mapping are attacking the same problem, but Traction Control is run off of sensors, and it will react according to what the car is doing, and depending on the type of traction control, it will cut the throttle back, or limit boost (on Turbo/SC cars) etc.

The Engine Mapping doesn't change to react to wheelspin...

It's different in execution to dedicated traction control or McLaren's old 'brake steer' from the late 90s, but the end result is the same: It's reducing wheelspin. It is therefore a form of traction control.

 

[DaxCobra]

But that's not the definition of traction control...

I am beyond caring anyhow.

 

[hornet_burnout]

So it's reduced wheel spin by "anticipation"?

Like ABS, but before the actual lock up.

 

[Sureboss]

Uh huh. Which is why I said...


It was unfair yes, but not intentional. So a penalty was harsh in my opinion. This is a personal view but I believe he should have been forced to let Paul retake the position instead.

Only the team could have told him to let him move back, I'm not aware that the stewards can do that (well, apart from a "Tell him to give back or we'll give a penalty") and they wouldn't have told him off their own back because that's now how F1 works, unfortunately. Intention is irrelevant, he's still responsible for his actions. It's yet another incident from a very poor racing driver.

 

[homeforsummer]

But that's not the definition of traction control...

I am beyond caring anyhow.

It doesn't matter what your definition is. It is artificially controlling traction. Ergo, it is traction control. McLaren's brake steer wasn't "traction control" either, but it stopped the inside wheel spinning out of corners... a bit like traction control. It too was banned.

 

[Blaze_409]

"Prince Stompy Foot" needs a vacation...That guy was angry before the weekend even started.

Also I think we now know how Raikkonen and Grosjean think of eachother...
Grosjean was totally dismissive of Raikkonen's pass and kept blaming Schumacher's blocking for costing him 1.5 secs. What about his terrible pitstop and the fact that everyone had to deal with traffic.
Raikkonen showed Grosjean the way off the track.

They are virtually polar opposites in demeanor. No surprises with the ontrack action.
I was sure they were going to crash into each other until they didnt lol.

 

[hornet_burnout]

"Prince Stompy Foot" needs a vacation...That guy was angry before the weekend even started.

Also I think we now know how Raikkonen and Grosjean think of eachother...
Grosjean was totally dismissive of Raikkonen's pass and kept blaming Schumacher's blocking for costing him 1.5 secs. What about his terrible pitstop and the fact that everyone had to deal with traffic.
Raikkonen showed Grosjean the way off the track.

They are virtually polar opposites in demeanor. No surprises with the ontrack action.
I was sure they were going to crash into each other until they didnt lol.

Kimi is the Alfa here. And Romain was once the young dog that was gonna conquer all and that didn't go too well. Now, he respects every crap his team and team mate throw at him cause he just wants to score consistently and stay in F1.

Obviously I'm exagerating, but you get the picture. Grosjean has conquered in this year the respect of drivers, team, sponsors, fans even.
(those are harder to turn... many still see him as a crasher when he only went off once on his own this year)

He will keep this as long as it gives him the results it's giving, even if he has lost (or more acurately, been deprived of winning) a lot this year because of his team.

Thing is, he is not a (F1) World Champion nor has the money to go around complaining, moping and/or crashing like "others" do, and he now knows it, and knows the consequences of doing so as a rookie, in the flesh.

He is doing it right 👍

Now next year, although depending on the transfers and his position in the food chain, he may start showing his claws a bit. But he will never be as agressive as Hamilton for instance. It's not even in his nature I guess, and he'll crash and fail miserably if he tries to go that way.

Now if someone could explain this to Pastor... very slowly... and from a safe distance...

 

[failing_finn]

kimi is the alfa here. And romain was once the young dog that was gonna conquer all and that didn't go too well. Now, he respects every crap his team and team mate throw at him cause he just wants to score consistently and stay in f1.

At least Lotus treated Kimi and Romain equally, team orders are so unsportmanslike.

now if someone could explain this to pastor... Very slowly... And from a safe distance...

Pastor knows his value.

 

[neljack]

At least Lotus treated Kimi and Romain equally, team orders are so unsportmanslike.




Pastor knows his value.

So do the oil company paying for his Williams seat

 

[The Outlaw]

Kimi is the Alfa here. And Romain was once the young dog that was gonna conquer all and that didn't go too well. Now, he respects every crap his team and team mate throw at him cause he just wants to score consistently and stay in F1.

Obviously I'm exagerating, but you get the picture. Grosjean has conquered in this year the respect of drivers, team, sponsors, fans even.
(those are harder to turn... many still see him as a crasher when he only went off once on his own this year).

I'd reckon that he's had a few more than that. From what I recall, there was Malaysia & Monaco (some may argue that it was not his fault, but he moved over further than was neccesary at the start). Then he had Spain (where he sliced Perez' tire) & GB where he took out Di Resta's rear tire and damaged his front wing in the process (requiring a pit stop). I know some of these may seem petty, but they are example of incidents that either cost someone else their race, or his own - just like many of Maldonado's

Now next year, although depending on the transfers and his position in the food chain, he may start showing his claws a bit. But he will never be as agressive as Hamilton for instance. It's not even in his nature I guess, and he'll crash and fail miserably if he tries to go that way.

His driving and overtaking in GP2 (particularly 2011 - where he had some really impressive overtaking moves) would show otherwise. He certainly seems to be a very aggresive driver not only in terms of pure speed, but also when it comes to on track battles (maybe not so much with his teammate). I think his current problem when it comes to picking up good results on a consistant basis, simply boils down to his lack of experience at this level, and maybe a bit of over enthusiasm now that he is back to prove himself as worthy of a drive... especially now that he has a car that is more than up to the task.

Lastly, I don't think Hamilton is the greatest example to use as the model for controlled aggression (what your statement implies), as we've seen him "crash and fail miserably" plenty of times over the past few years. I think Alonso is a better example of someone who is very aggresive, but who makes very few mistakes in the process.

 

[SagarisGTB]

I'd reckon that he's had a few more than that. From what I recall, there was Malaysia & Monaco (some may argue that it was not his fault, but he moved over further than was neccesary at the start). Then he had Spain (where he sliced Perez' tire) & GB where he took out Di Resta's rear tire and damaged his front wing in the process (requiring a pit stop). I know some of these may seem petty, but they are example of incidents that either cost someone else their race, or his own - just like many of Maldonado's

To blame the incident at the start in Monaco on Grosjean is misguided. Some argue it was a racing incident and some argue it was Alonso's fault. In either case, you can't blame Grosjean for moving left to avoid contact when Alonso tried to go through a gap that wasn't there. Never Grosjean's fault when everything was happening so fast, you can only blame the one who started the chain reaction.

Malaysia, Spain and Silverstone are the only 3 incidents where part of the blame can be placed on Romain.

 

[Bye Ya]

Can someone please explain to me how Maldonado has so much financial backing? Why the hell would anybody put stock into this guy? He's completely incompetent.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

He's got the whole country behind him or at least the President.

 

[Bye Ya]

He's got the whole country behind him or at least the President.

But... why?

 

[Blaze_409]

I thought it was particularly funny when prince stompy foot yelled at his team to "do something" as if they could just tractor beam him into the lead.

 

[GTPorsche]

But... why?

Could say the same for Milka Duno. Another Venezuelan with(or at one point) had major financial backing from Venezuelan oil conglomerates.

 

[Bye Ya]

Could say the same for Milka Duno. Another Venezuelan with(or at one point) had major financial backing from Venezuelan oil conglomerates.

Human beings are a funny lot. You'd think they'd invest such large sums of money into competent individuals, but instead they just do the irrational.

 

[daan]

I thought it was particularly funny when prince stompy foot yelled at his team to "do something" as if they could just tractor beam him into the lead.

It would have been made so much better if, after Button pitted, they came back on and said, "We did something. Happy now?"

 

[hornet_burnout]

I'd reckon that he's had a few more than that. From what I recall, there was Malaysia & Monaco (some may argue that it was not his fault, but he moved over further than was neccesary at the start). Then he had Spain (where he sliced Perez' tire) & GB where he took out Di Resta's rear tire and damaged his front wing in the process (requiring a pit stop). I know some of these may seem petty, but they are example of incidents that either cost someone else their race, or his own - just like many of Maldonado's

Throw in there China then, when he raced side by side with Maldonado and the latter draw the shorter straw and a damaged front wing.

There is no way that compares to punting drivers off track or crashing into a pile of cars on T1, coming from last (Monaco)

His driving and overtaking in GP2 (particularly 2011 - where he had some really impressive overtaking moves) would show otherwise. He certainly seems to be a very aggresive driver not only in terms of pure speed, but also when it comes to on track battles (maybe not so much with his teammate).

My point is that he may be as Hamilton is currently or Alonso. In the future. But he is not being so, nor will be as Hamilton was in his "dark period". Even the incidents you referred were just that and he keeps trying to avoid contact (hence Monaco).

I think his current problem when it comes to picking up good results on a consistant basis, simply boils down to his lack of experience at this level, and maybe a bit of over enthusiasm now that he is back to prove himself as worthy of a drive... especially now that he has a car that is more than up to the task.

He is producing results, IMO just enough for the current moment in his career. He's trying to gain experience without being a liability or moping around cause he's not nr 1 (like Senna...). Could be better? Yes. But I still think he is doing it right, despite the 4 DNF (I think you can only blame one on him).

We should applaud and respect guys like him, and give them the benefit of the doubt. Not "others".