Formula 1 Eni Magyar Nagydíj 2012

[TheCracker]

Can someone please explain to me how Maldonado has so much financial backing? Why the hell would anybody put stock into this guy? He's completely incompetent.

He's got the whole country behind him or at least the President.

But... why?

Human beings are a funny lot. You'd think they'd invest such large sums of money into competent individuals, but instead they just do the irrational.

Because he's a Formula One race winner, GP2 Champion (with more race wins in the series then anyone else has) and would have been a Formula Renault 3.5 champion, if it hadn't been for a technical infringement. His current run of form in F1 may make him look 'incompetent' but his pedigree clearly points to the fact that he isn't.

 

[hornet_burnout]

That's the path he took to F1, but not the only reason to be in it. Money did help him into F1 and it has been helping him along to build his pedigree (as many others) for years.

The reason he still is and will be in F1 and not replaced by Bottas, despite his "run of form" is because of money, not because he is a good racing driver. And the reason he is having this "run of form", is because he is not in the fastest car (except the one race he won leading from the start) and is forced to race among other drivers. His GP2 Title (with more race wins in the series then anyone else has) was won with merit and speed granted, and the money to be in the best car. Winning from the front or passing in the pits, avoiding his weakness: racing among others without crashing.

The answer to why he gets so much of it (money) is politics, and Chavez, and him (and his father) being involved in it and the "National Hero" thing, and he is fast enough to be spending it on F1.

The only way he will ever be out of money to be in F1 is if he becomes utter and completely useless as a driver. Which he is not, and wont ever be.

He is a fast driver, just not a good racer (yet, hopefully).

He got into Williams (a top team, though still struggling) and if he gets a faster car (with the help of his money), one that will allow him to run with the lead and win races, he can even be WDC in a couple of years.

But don't discard the importance money had, does and will continue to have in his racing career.

 

[TheCracker]

I think the talk of drivers been in F1 because of money is a moot point these days. 90% or more are only in F1 because of the money they bring or brought up until the point they made the move to F1.

 

[hornet_burnout]

Very true. It's a delicate balance between driver quality and driver money (and/or influence) these days.

Bottas seams to have both now:
http://www.planetf1.com/driver/3213/7952400/-Bottas-decision-up-to-Williams-

 

[Peter.]

Human beings are a funny lot. You'd think they'd invest such large sums of money into competent individuals, but instead they just do the irrational.

Incompetent, maybe. Talented, absolutely. That's the investment.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

The only good thing about his incidents is that they have been relatively low speed.

 

[csmeteora9]

The reason he still is and will be in F1 and not replaced by Bottas, despite his "run of form" is because of money, not because he is a good racing driver. And the reason he is having this "run of form", is because he is not in the fastest car (except the one race he won leading from the start) and is forced to race among other drivers. His GP2 Title (with more race wins in the series then anyone else has) was won with merit and speed granted, and the money to be in the best car. Winning from the front or passing in the pits, avoiding his weakness: racing among others without crashing.

Pastor is a good racing driver but at the present, he is too reckless. Excluding his incident in Hungary, I can not defend him for most other incidents he has been involved in this season. I say most as I feel his incident with Lewis in Valencia was 50/50.

Regardless of this however some of your 'theories' here are clearly inspired out of hate, rather than logical thinking. While I agree that he is there because of his backing, you don't win by luck. You have this belief he led from start to finish in Spain and that it was an easy win. Except he didn't, and it wasn't. Alonso passed Pastor at the first corner and so Maldonado had to keep Fernando within his sights. Since the Ferrari and Williams were very even in race pace, it wasn't a case of let the car keep up with Alonso and reap the rewards later. Ferrari has a poor pre-season yes, and come Melbourne the car was still a dog. But by the time they arrived in Barcelona they'd made quite a bit of progress and were on par with Williams. McLaren and Red Bull were quicker than the pair of them however come qualifying, both shot themselves in the foot. My point is this. Pastor was required to make an effort and he did what he needed to do. He maintained a manageable gap to Alonso, which did require him to push the car as Alonso was doing so too. He put in quick in and out laps when he needed to and resisted pressure from Alonso towards the end of the race. And in case you still want to deny that Fernando was anywhere near Pastor at the end of the race...

Toward the end of this video shows Fernando close behind...


An onboard view of Alonso chasing Maldonado...


Alonso never got close enough to attempt a pass, that is true. However he was close enough to apply pressure on Maldonado; you don't need to be right of a drivers gearbox and threatening to pass in order to apply pressure. Fernando was applying pressure by decreasing the gap too Maldonado (Alonso's tyres were in better condition than Pastor's at the closing stages, so Alonso pushed and put in some great laps), but Pastor kept calm and made no mistakes. He could have crumbled under the pressure of knowing that Alonso was getting nearer but he didn't. You don't win anything just by being lucky; you need to be a good enough driver and have enough talent as well.

Pastor has shown the same sort of pace he had in Spain since his victory. However most of the time he seemed set for a good result, he has screwed up and hit another car. He has the talent to be quick but I have no gripes with anyone who says he is a dangerous overtaker. Habits can be changed however, even that of a racing driver. Andrea de Cesaris for example, was infamous for ending his race in a barrier. That was toward the beginning of his career however and later on, he was a lot better at bringing the car back to the garage as it had left it; in one piece. He had also turned into a rather skilled overtaker. Flaws can be rectified, so there is hope for Pastor yet. However the changes need to be made now!

One last thing. You say Pastor had the best car in GP2, right? Except all the drivers have the best car in GP2, because all the cars are the same. The only differences are the set-up's of each car, which are made to suit the style of the driver. All components however, are identical.​

 

[hornet_burnout]

I do not hate Pastor. I hate that he's been driving like and idiot and you can't say that he hasn't can you?

Spain (again...):
- he held Alonso off side by side (rather well) then stayed ahead and managed his tyres (team spent the whole race telling him to save tires in the first 2/3 of the track)
- Alonso still had a doggish of a car, one that couldn't keep up when Pastor pushed in the last sector, to stay away from DRS.
- Did he do a good job? Yes. Very good. He showed everyone what he can do best.

GP2
The same way he won that F1 race, is how he won GP2. And GP2 cars are all the same, yes... Just like Nascar or IRL cars are all the same. It's just that some are more "the same" than other.

Flaws can be rectified, so there is hope for Pastor yet. However the changes need to be made now!

Been saying that for months... Like his speed, he needs to shape up. But all people see is "hater"

One can like a driver and still say he is driving like an idiot if that is true...

 

[TheCracker]

One last thing. You say Pastor had the best car in GP2, right? Except all the drivers have the best car in GP2, because all the cars are the same. The only differences are the set-up's of each car, which are made to suit the style of the driver. All components however, are identical.​

It's never quite as straight forward as that in spec series racing. A driver with a big budget will still have an advantage over one who can only just scrape together a budget. If you have a team with two drivers, one with endless pockets and one very shallow ones, one of these drivers will have the best mechanics and engineers looking after their car, they'll also have access to new parts and components when needed (as opposed to semi-worn or repaired parts, which can include the chassis) they may also have access to the 'poorer' driver's telemetry and set-up details, which may not always be reciprocated.

 

[csmeteora9]

I do not hate Pastor. I hate that he's been driving like and idiot and you can't say that he hasn't can you?

Spain (again...):
- he held Alonso off side by side (rather well) then stayed ahead and managed his tyres (team spent the whole race telling him to save tires in the first 2/3 of the track)
- Alonso still had a doggish of a car, one that couldn't keep up when Pastor pushed in the last sector, to stay away from DRS.
- Did he do a good job? Yes. Very good. He showed everyone what he can do best.

GP2
The same way he won that F1 race, is how he won GP2. And GP2 cars are all the same, yes... Just like Nascar or IRL cars are all the same. It's just that some are more "the same" than other.




Been saying that for months... Like his speed, he needs to shape up. But all people see is "hater"

One can like a driver and still say he is driving like an idiot if that is true...

Well I do like Pastor but I agree he's been driving like an idiot; which is what I was basically saying when I said I can not defend him in most of his incidents. The reason I like him is that I believe if he sorts himself out (which as you say, he needs too), he'll have the potential to bring some more great results to Williams; a team which I want to see closer to the front and a team which will likely keep him for a while longer, due to the sponsorship he brings. To be honest it tires me a little how people will judge an incident he has on his previous scrapes. In Hungary he caught over steer and accidentally collided with Di Resta while correcting. I'm sure Charlie Whiting could have requested him to let Paul back through; he's done it before with other drivers, hasn't he?

It's never quite as straight forward as that in spec series racing. A driver with a big budget will still have an advantage over one who can only just scrape together a budget. If you have a team with two drivers, one with endless pockets and one very shallow ones, one of these drivers will have the best mechanics and engineers looking after their car, they'll also have access to new parts and components when needed (as opposed to semi-worn or repaired parts, which can include the chassis) they may also have access to the 'poorer' driver's telemetry and set-up details, which may not always be reciprocated.

👍

Although he wasn't the only driver on the grid with money, so surely he wouldn't have been the only one with this advantage?

 

[lbsf1]

I had a long disscusion about maldonaldo with some mates from karting and we came to the conclusion that he is a fast driver however makes some bad decisions.

He won GP2 albeit in the best car, however you don't do that without being seriously skilled. People say that you can only get to f1 with money, that is true, however no bad driver will ever be in F1, you need lots of skill to do well in lower championships to even progress to near f1. Ugi Edai (can't spell his name, however he was that crap super aguri driver) was so bad in f1, yet then went and won Super GT in Japan, no doubt he is a good driver however not to f1 standard.

Maldonaldo is much better than Edai, is performances show that. He however lacks experience and ends up getting himself in positions where he takes people out. I don't believe he does it intentionally (apart from maybe Spa last year), he does it out of inexperience. Give him a couple more years in F1 and hopefully he will have gained the knowledge and racecraft to realise the situations before they happen, at the moment he goes for them without the foresight to see what happens.

There are so many hugely funded drivers, ones that arn't good don't even make it out of karting. Maldonaldo is hugely tallented, had he had a couple more years in feeder series, instead of being turbocharged into F1 because of his backing then when he did get to f1 (and I have no doubt he would get there by skill merit) he may have gained the extra racecraft and thus be not in this situation of critisism. Maldonaldo is technically a pay driver, however (pretty much) every driver in the grid has had the huge sponsorship to get there and needs to be almost a pay driver to get into the teams in f1 and lower series to win, however to get that sponsorship you are either hugely lucky or skilled, and the lucky ones will run out of luck far before f1.

 

[Akmuq]

If Maldonado could stop driving like an idiot and taking himself as well as others out, he could eventually be World Champion in my opinion.

 

[csmeteora9]

If Maldonado could stop driving like an idiot and taking himself as well as others out, he could eventually be World Champion in my opinion.

Providing he stops driving his car like a bulldozer, it's possible. Although personally I feel the likes of Perez and Grosjean are more likely bets for future champions.

 

[Ardius]

One last thing. You say Pastor had the best car in GP2, right? Except all the drivers have the best car in GP2, because all the cars are the same. The only differences are the set-up's of each car, which are made to suit the style of the driver. All components however, are identical.​

Just to add to the points that Cracker made on this:
While every driver may have the same car in GP2, a car will naturally suit certain driving styles over others, not to mention the tyres and circuits, etc etc.

I actually think spec series are the most confusing guage of talent because some drivers will really struggle with one car but dominate with another. A driver can be amazing in say a Formula 3 car but struggle in a GP2 car.

That said, Maldonado was at least decent in GP2. Winning the championship does mean he has to be pretty good, although he did it after spending several years in the series, which makes it less impressive than say Hulkenburg winning his rookie season. (today's comparison would be Valsecchi, he's a front runner this year but hes very unimpressive compared to Calado who regularly beats him and is a rookie).

And then we have to consider the fact that even if you're good in every series before F1, F1 is a completely different ball game. Jan Magnussen was nothing in F1 whereas Kobayashi has turned into quite the surprise compared to his GP2 days.

Anyway, as has been said numerous times already, its pretty damn obvious Maldonado has the speed and ability to be an F1 champion. He just lacks the wheel-to-wheel racecraft.

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

Also apparently Maldonado now that he won the spanish GP is very impatient and not happy when the car dont perform as well as he wish. Apparently now that he won he want to win all race and is pushing too much, that's the rumor I heard. That could explain some of his "moves".

 

[hornet_burnout]

Either one likes him or not, if he gets a top car, within Williams (if they evolve) or if he gets something the likes of a current Lotus, RBR or a Mac (current best pace cars) he's gonna win races and even a WDC.

What I think he needs to understand (I honestly think he doesn't) is that to win he "just" has to be fast. This is not go cart bump-to-pass racing anymore. He won GP2 by being consistently the fastest in that last season. He won one F1 race by being (2nd) fastest on qually and then being consistently (mostly on last sector, as needed) fast all race long. He should've got it by know...

He didn't ever win by "vigorously imposing" himself through the pack. Ever. He is not a Hamilton or Grosjean from 12th to 2nd or 18th to 4th kind of guy. He won in F1 by imposing himself on Alonso on the first lap (start squeeze and initial side by side action) cleanly, WITHOUT touching him, and then being faster ahead.

Think about it:
- Current F1 is not easy on overtakes. Faster drivers easily don't win cause they get stuck behind other "not as fast". Acknowledged talents such as Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and the "hero of overtakes" Button can't do much when not leading or passing in the pits.
- The way Maldonado won as he did in GP2. And his F1 race.

It's like adding 2+2! Keep your nose clean as in Germany, then strike when the chance comes like in Spain.

He has what it takes to succeed. But also what it takes to fail.

 

[csmeteora9]

Just to add to the points that Cracker made on this:
While every driver may have the same car in GP2, a car will naturally suit certain driving styles over others, not to mention the tyres and circuits, etc etc.

I actually think spec series are the most confusing guage of talent because some drivers will really struggle with one car but dominate with another. A driver can be amazing in say a Formula 3 car but struggle in a GP2 car.

Actually you have a very good point there. 👍 My mistake. Of course I was thinking they can make the car to their liking with set-up changes but as you've basically said yourself, that doesn't work for every car & driver combination.

Either one likes him or not, if he gets a top car, within Williams (if they evolve) or if he gets something the likes of a current Lotus, RBR or a Mac (current best pace cars) he's gonna win races and even a WDC.

What I think he needs to understand (I honestly think he doesn't) is that to win he "just" has to be fast. This is not go cart bump-to-pass racing anymore. He won GP2 by being consistently the fastest in that last season. He won one F1 race by being (2nd) fastest on qually and then being consistently (mostly on last sector, as needed) fast all race long. He should've got it by know...

He didn't ever win by "vigorously imposing" himself through the pack. Ever. He is not a Hamilton or Grosjean from 12th to 2nd or 18th to 4th kind of guy. He won in F1 by imposing himself on Alonso on the first lap (start squeeze and initial side by side action) cleanly, WITHOUT touching him, and then being faster ahead.

Think about it:
- Current F1 is not easy on overtakes. Faster drivers easily don't win cause they get stuck behind other "not as fast". Acknowledged talents such as Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and the "hero of overtakes" Button can't do much when not leading or passing in the pits.
- The way Maldonado won as he did in GP2. And his F1 race.

It's like adding 2+2! Keep your nose clean as in Germany, then strike when the chance comes like in Spain.

He has what it takes to succeed. But also what it takes to fail.

Well he has the speed, which is what you seemed to deny at first. If that's not the case then I do apologize. It's as you say; he's quick but not consistently so. On some occasions he'll be right up there in qualifying while other times, he'll be mired in the midfield. It's on those occasions that he's been involved in numerous mid-race 'sumo matches'. By making sure he starts further up the grid frequently he'll be a lot more likely to keep his nose clean and bring home a good result. Although the more ideal solution would be to sort out his overtaking difficulties for good.

 

[hornet_burnout]

No apology needed. I've been saying I like his speed since the beginning of the season. It's just there's a lot more to criticize than to praise unfortunately.

And last race I'd side with you as unintentional, as I ended up conceding in his incident in Australia against Grosjean. But that was race 1. It's race 9 and it's still happening... hard to believe him now when he says "I just lost my rear". He said that in Australia, he said that in Silverstone against Perez, heck he said he "lost his rear" when he hit Perez on FP in Monaco at slow pace. Even if he does, it is hard to accept that it could happen almost every other race (or roughly one out of three).

It really mustn't.

 

[RacerMPower]

I don’t think Maldonado did much wrong with Di Resta, compared to Monaco and Valencia. He clearly caught Di Resta out, was well alongside him and barley made contact. That level of contact didn’t need a penalty. Di Resta was going to lose the position anyway. His move at Valencia was far more ridiculous.

 

[csmeteora9]

No apology needed. I've been saying I like his speed since the beginning of the season. It's just there's a lot more to criticize than to praise unfortunately.

And last race I'd side with you as unintentional, as I ended up conceding in his incident in Australia against Grosjean. But that was race 1. It's race 9 and it's still happening... hard to believe him now when he says "I just lost my rear". He said that in Australia, he said that in Silverstone against Perez, heck he said he "lost his rear" when he hit Perez on FP in Monaco at slow pace. Even if he does, it is hard to accept that it could happen almost every other race (or roughly one out of three).

It really mustn't.

Currently his pure speed really is being shadowed by his incidents, which is a real shame. I believe he lost the rear at Silverstone but that in my mind, was caused by him being overly aggressive in his defence. Sergio had the better line going into the corner and was marginally ahead, meaning the most likely outcome was that he would emerge in front. But of course, Pastor didn't grasp this fact. Or at least it seems. In the end he ended up carrying a little too much speed into the corner, ran wide, lost grip and over steered into the Sauber. Honestly I think Sergio's pass was a done deal (or would have been) before they arrived at the corner, as he was in the perfect position to perform the undercut on the Williams. Pastor should have realized this, stuck close behind Sergio after he had passed and then used what ever DRS he had left to try and retake the position on the Hanger Straight. But he didn't. And he paid the price.

As for Monaco? He caught a little over steer on the exit of the previous corner, but was that the cause of the collision? I seriously doubt it.

 

[Blaze_409]

How and why did Nico Rosberg become one of the most forgettable race winners/drivers this season. Maldonado is easily more memorable. I couldn't tell you what place Rosberg finished off the top of my head for any race except China where he won. Yet I can recite Maldonado's finishes lol. I've heard it was a common sentiment about Rosberg but I never really understood what that meant until now. Granted Maldonadao and Schumi are making mistakes Rosberg is having clean races and not even getting points.

 

[Ardius]

Rosberg doesn't make headlines, doesn't hit anybody or pull out any stand-out performances. He just drives the car to the positions its expected to reach. His race win was good but was expected considering the car's performance that weekend. Not to mention he doesn't have many fans to bring it up for him in discussions every now and then.
Its kind of like Kovalainen - its easy to forget he won a race as his stint at McLaren was pretty invisible.

Whereas Maldonado is either crashing into everything or putting the car higher than its expected to be. Thats obviously going to be a lot more memorable.

The only reason people remember Schumacher more is because he already has the fame and fanbase. People follow him more closely as a consequence.

This applies to the Toro Rosso drivers at the moment too - no one really tends to talk about them much because they're rarely doing anything particularly noteworthy - whether that be driving well or driving badly.

 

[Blaze_409]

This applies to the Toro Rosso drivers at the moment too - no one really tends to talk about them much because they're rarely doing anything particularly noteworthy - whether that be driving well or driving badly.

Toro who?

 

[hawkeye122]

The difference is neither of the Torro Rosso drivers are very good. Kovalinen and Rosberg can put in the occasional "Oh hey, thats right, I forgot he was decent"

 

[peter_vod69]

The difference is neither of the Torro Rosso drivers are very good.

Really? You can make that assessment based entirely on performances in what would readily be acknowledged as the worst of the midfield cars?

You must be a fantastic judge.

 

[hawkeye122]

Really? You can make that assessment based entirely on performances in what would readily be acknowledged as the worst of the midfield cars?

You must be a fantastic judge.

Name a spectacular result either of them have had in the last 2 years.

 

[peter_vod69]

Name a spectacular result either of them have had in the last 2 years.

Both STR drivers are former British F3 champions, and have had success in several junior Formulae. Almost anyone who is good enough to be in F1 would be good enough to be a winner if the car allowed it.

 

[m8h3r]

Both STR drivers are former British F3 champions, and have had success in several junior Formulae. Almost anyone who is good enough to be in F1 would be good enough to be a winner if the car allowed it.

Even Karthiekyan?

Post (1)666, good job I'm not superstitious

 

[PeterJB]

Even Karthiekyan?

Post (1)666, good job I'm not superstitious

Yes, even Karthikeyan. He is very consistent and makes few mistakes, even if he is consistently out-paced and out-qualified by de la Rosa. He has never raced a car even worthy of points. The only reason he has those 5 points under his belt is because he was racing five other people. But he does have two years testing experience with Williams and three years racing experience in A1GP. Plus a good twelve years of single seaters before that. I think he'd be more than capable of winning races if given a Red Bull.

 

[m8h3r]

Yes, even Karthikeyan. He is very consistent and makes few mistakes, even if he is consistently out-paced and out-qualified by de la Rosa. He has never raced a car even worthy of points. The only reason he has those 5 points under his belt is because he was racing five other people. But he does have two years testing experience with Williams and three years racing experience in A1GP. Plus a good twelve years of single seaters before that. I think he'd be more than capable of winning races if given a Red Bull.

I would like to imagine he could win in the right car it's just the way he is like 19-1 at the end of the season with his team mate that throws me off.