Formula 1: Formula One Santander Italian Grand Prix

[wajdi1977]

Because haters gonna hate.

Vettel won this race. Easy.

Vettel will be crowned a fourth-time world champion this year. Easy.

Vettel will go on to become one of the, if not the, most succesful drivers in this sport's history. Easy.

Suck it up haters.

👍👍👍👍👍👍.........

 

[JGreens]

Y'know what I love about Formula BMW?

I don't know, perhaps the fact it's for juniors? Whoop de doo.

 

[Danny]

I don't know, perhaps the fact it's for juniors? Whoop de doo.

Again.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Because it's him - his style, attitude, personality, quips, titles and victories that are affecting the product. It's not Red Bull that is the problem, it is him. Personally. People do not like him. They don't like his quips on the radio, they don't like his cold personality, they don't like how he suddenly got gifted the seat at Red Bull and the lack of race-craft battles and overtakes and moves that were 50/50, or the lack of passion in the car, they don't like how he always qualifies well and simply disappears leaving the fans watching the scraps for 2nd or 3rd when they want battle and competition for the victory, for the title. They want action. And I agree, one hundred percent with them. It is him. It is not the car, it is not Horner, or Newey or even Marko, or the money they spend on the team, it is him. He doesn't have the arrogance of Schuey, or the self-assured confidence Hakkinen had, he doesn't have the passion of Alonso or the speed of Kimi, he has nothing, nothing personally notable about him that makes him special, talented, gifted other than what his car can do. It is him, Personally, that is solely responsible for this slump we are in.

Cold personality. Was your big brother an up and coming driver and did Vettel kill his dreams, cry us a river J Greens.

First you say I said it, now you say you're paraphrasing what I said.

Said it before the last post too, I'm not all of a sudden saying it, and you clearly don't understand what I've said. I'm paraphrasing that you said the winner is Newey rather than Vettel. If you're going to say something at least stand by it instead of trying to spin your BS.

Hmph, I'd call driving that Red Bull basically cheating, it's so far ahead of the competition - what was he today, eleven seconds ahead of Alonso, and people have the gall to call it a race.

Hamilton won his race by that same gap...that's the reality of grand prix racing. Also you've been asked to provide evidence about a claim you made, show us proof that RBR are actually cheating or have been penalized as such while Vettel was at the wheel. Follow the AUP, like the rest of us.

👍👍👍👍👍👍.........

This from the guy that thought we were all bashing Vettel when the only person you should be angry at is J Greens.

 

[Third Reign]

Obviously it was the team, they won all races, Newey must have done the settings!

/sarcasm

There may be something like freedom of speech, but some people overuse the privilege.

I find it very disrespectful on how people react to podium ceremonies lately. Has public manners decline so far that it is socially acceptable to collectively boo someone out for doing nothing offensive? Sure I dislike the fact that racing in F1 has gone somewhat stale, but I have all the more respect for someone pulling off such a stunt and frequently dominating races start to finish.

F1 has always been the best driver in the best car. Trying to belittle a pilot due to personal taste is extremely immature. Vettel's tone of voice is much different in english than german. Judge someone on his capabilities with a foreign language? I think such actions are childish. My experience is that most english native speakers sound snobbish when they talk german, that's purely due to accent, nothing about personality.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I don't know, perhaps the fact it's for juniors? Whoop de doo.

Yep, and he was a Junior like all the others.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

The only reason why I want Vettel to keep winning is so I can use up all my consecutive picks in the Fantasy F1 thread. Other than that, I agree with Greens. I've completely blocked Vettel out of my mind every time I watch a race and he is in the front. Its a 2 tiered sport gentlemen. Tier one has one participant, tier two has 21 others.

 

[G91V]

This is my opinion:

There are many "racing performance" levels in F1 basing on the speed, agressiveness in the track, regularity, control... Which build my racer's ranking.

In Level 1 are Alonso and Kimi.
Level 2 is empty (Kubica, former member)
And level 3 features the other drivers (Hamilton, Vettel, Rosberg maybe)

Leaving the different car performances and their engineers, what makes F1 much more boring this year than 2012 or 2010 is the lack of equality.

Brazil 2012 was the best race I've ever seen in years, and the constant leaderboard change made the event even better.

Based on the basis that every racer has done a lot of work to reach this status, I think there will be always better and worse riders, in and out of the track.

And we cannot argue like in here. Let's respect each other and keep showing our opinions.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

This is my opinion:

There are many "racing performance" levels in F1.

In Level 1 are Alonso and Kimi.
Level 2 is empty (Kubica, former member)
And level 3 features the other drivers (Hamilton, Vettel, Rosberg maybe)

Leaving the different car performances and their engineers, what makes F1 much more boring this year than 2012 or 2010 is the lack of equality.

Brazil 2012 was the best race I've ever seen in years, and the constant leaderboard change made the event even better.

Based on the basis that every racer has done a lot of work to reach this status, I think there will be always better and worse riders, in and out of the track.

And we cannot argue like in here. Let's respect each other and keep showing our opinions.

What are your levels based on?

 

[Famine]

While the very pointiest end of today's race may have been predictably dreary, the rest wasn't.

If anything it should hammer home the fact that the four other World Champions are simply brilliant to watch and for each other to be around. Give Kimi, Lewis, Fernando and Jenson equal machinery and set them going. I'd watch it until they had to stop through exhaustion.

 

[G91V]

What are your levels based on?

Post edited. Sorry for my terrible expressiveness

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Post edited. Sorry for my terrible expressiveness

My question is are you placing Alonso higher than Hamilton and Vettel, or are the levels based on something else?

 

[JGreens]

I find it very disrespectful on how people react to podium ceremonies lately. Has public manners decline so far that it is socially acceptable to collectively boo someone out for doing nothing offensive?

There's public manners and then there's paying a lot of $$$ for a poor product and feeling like you just got ripped off. I do not blame them at all. I sit and think after a race like that - thank god I didn't waste my money and time bothering to pay up and go all the way over there to watch THAT for all of what, two hours, when I can get better value at the Cinema or the local Racetrack.

 

[Blitz24]

There's public manners and then there's paying a lot of $$$ for a poor product and feeling like you just got ripped off. I do not blame them at all. I sit and think after a race like that - thank god I didn't waste my money and time bothering to pay up and go all the way over there to watch THAT for all of what, two hours, when I can get better value at the Cinema or the local Racetrack.

Then go not watch. Trust me nobody will miss your conspiracy theories, anti-Vettel garbage, or your general poor attitude if you aren't here.

 

[Ardius]

This was a good race.

Meh. There a few nice battles and overtakes but they were all very short. Even Hamilton and Raikkonen's races weren't particularly interesting to watch, at least for me anyway.
Highlights were Alonso around the outside of Webber and Hamilton's couple of nice overtakes, inside and outside of people around Curva Grande.

Nothing else really of note really happened. :/

 

[Pupik]

Y'know what I love about Formula BMW? I love how all the cars are identical so the races come down to driver skill.

Gosh, I hope no-one carelessly leaves something lying around that shows you have no idea what you're talking about.

Oh no!

I don't know, perhaps the fact it's for juniors? Whoop de doo.

Again.

Don't be silly, he's taking the racing line.

Of course, the exhaust sound is the same one all the time...

 

[BHRxRacer]

As predicted, Vettel won the race from lap 3. As always. Fun race to watch though if you forget Vettel's in it. Shame Rosberg missed FP3 and Hamilton messed up his qualifying a little bit, otherwise at least 1 Merc would've been on the podium.

Stars of the race: Alonso, Hulkenberg, Massa, Webber, Hamilton

Star of the race or not though, Alonso just lost the respect he gained from me lately. I've always thought he was a selfish crybaby but I changed my mind when I saw him a bit more mature with Ferrari. Apparently it was only because Massa was put in his bag. I hope Ferrari get Hulkenberg and Kimi for next year, then Massa settles for force india or something. Alonso can go **** himself, or go back crying to Renault/Lotus again.

I hope merc's new parts at Singapore get them anywhere near the RBs otherwise it'll be a typically boring race. I hate that track.

I've also provided the fact that Vettel has driven from the back to finish on the podium but still logic defeats you.

You better not be referring to Abu Dhabi last year.

Nope. The year 2000 is when Schumi's Ferrari was leaps and bounds ahead of the rest, and after this year was when he won the most of his WDC, he won WDCs before this yes but after this year is when Ferrari completely dominated everything. So when he said "since 2000", that's what LMSCorvette was hinting at, Schumi having the best car and winning everything.

[Comments Removed by Moderator] I'm sick of hearing this, seriously. He NEVER had the fastest car until 2004. The Mclaren was faster. Remember those cars designed by Newey? The same guy designing the RBs now?

Oh, and he should've won 1998, 1999 and other seasons I won't mention to avoid stirring more ****.

Because haters gonna hate.

Vettel won this race. Easy.

Vettel will be crowned a fourth-time world champion this year. Easy.

Vettel will go on to become one of the, if not the, most succesful drivers in this sport's history. Easy.

Suck it up haters.

I am also sick of hearing this. I'll say it again, this whole "haters gonna hate" crap was started by Paris Hilton.

 

[IceMan PJN]

There's public manners and then there's paying a lot of $$$ for a poor product and feeling like you just got ripped off. I do not blame them at all. I sit and think after a race like that - thank god I didn't waste my money and time bothering to pay up and go all the way over there to watch THAT for all of what, two hours, when I can get better value at the Cinema or the local Racetrack.

I missed most of this thread, but from what I can tell someone criticized the poor conduct from the booing crowd and then you defending the poor crowd character by spinning it as them booing a bad race. They didn't boo a product; they booed Vettel specifically. They don't have the right.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

As predicted, Vettel won the race from lap 3. As always. Fun race to watch though if you forget Vettel's in it. Shame Rosberg missed FP3 and Hamilton messed up his qualifying a little bit, otherwise at least 1 Merc would've been on the podium.

It really wasn't Hamilton's fault as much of the press has shown and expressed.

You better not be referring to Abu Dhabi last year.

Why? You gonna punch me through the internet tubes that run under your house?

I wish all of you would say that in person so I could punch you in the face. I'm sick of hearing this, seriously. He NEVER had the fastest car until 2004. The Mclaren was faster. Remember those cars designed by Newey? The same guy designing the RBs now?

Um Rory Byrne is as good or better than Newey this has been expressed many times and proved directly in 2002 and 2004. Some would even argue 2001.

 

[dsgerbc]

There's public manners and then there's paying a lot of $$$ for a poor product and feeling like you just got ripped off. I do not blame them at all. I sit and think after a race like that - thank god I didn't waste my money and time bothering to pay up and go all the way over there to watch THAT for all of what, two hours, when I can get better value at the Cinema or the local Racetrack.

You're fighting a losing battle here from the start. People who would agree with you mostly gave up on this season and don't post. Just compare post count for treads on latest races vs. the beginning of the season.

 

[BHRxRacer]

It really wasn't Hamilton's fault as much of the press has shown and expressed.

I did say a little bit.

Why? You gonna punch me through the internet tubes that run under your house?

No, but if it was Abu Dhabi 2012 then you'll have lost whatever credibility you have left because not only was his car 20x faster than everyone's that race, half the guys ahead of him retired.

Um Rory Byrne is as good or better than Newey this has been expressed many times and proved directly in 2002 and 2004. Some would even argue 2001.

I don't like including 2002 but I have in the past, so I'll let that go.

To quote myself:

From 1998 to 2001 the Mclaren was much faster than the Ferraris. He almost took 1998 but he got unlucky in Japan and Coulthard took him out in Spa. He broke his leg in 1999, points per race he would've won it if you consider his performance. In 2000 he still didn't have the fastest car and won it fair and square. 2001 he did get a little lucky Mika had his engine blown up every race, but he still didn't have the fastest car. 2003 was close like you said. He got a little lucky again this time it was Kimi whose car retired a few more times than usual.

2002-2004 are the only two seasons where Ferrari was faster than everyone by a considerable amount. You can say he had a couple of Vettel seasons there.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

No, but if it was Abu Dhabi 2012 then you'll have lost whatever credibility you have left because not only was his car 20x faster than everyone's that race, half the guys ahead of him retired.

No it wasn't, the car that was the fastest that weekend was the McLaren like most of the season, however if the team isn't there to make it happen then McLaren only has themselves to blame. Even if people don't care to admit, Webber had an equal oppurtunity season with Vettel in 2009 and Vettel still bested him. Webber had the Chance again in 2010 and was beat yet again. I'd say full time love was given to Vettel come 2011.

I don't like including 2002 but I have in the past, so I'll let that go.

To quote myself:

It's subjective, but racing is a multi tier and multi component system. You could be as fast as you want but if the construction of the car compromises the longevity it clearly isn't the fastest car over an entire race weekend. Point still stands people who hated Michael then for his continuous winning, attitude in the press, on track antics and the feeling he and Ferrari were constantly trying to cheat the system at weak points are all the same reason you hypocrites hate Vettel now. What's more amusing is you just don't like the parallel, because that is sacrilege to Schumi's credit.

 

[BHRxRacer]

No it wasn't, the car that was the fastest that weekend was the McLaren like most of the season, however if the team isn't there to make it happen then McLaren only has themselves to blame. Even if people don't care to admit, Webber had an equal oppurtunity season with Vettel in 2009 and Vettel still bested him. Webber had the Chance again in 2010 and was beat yet again. I'd say full time love was given to Vettel come 2011.

What does any of that have to do with the single grand prix in question?

What grand prix were you referring to in which Vettel came from the very back to the podium?

It's subjective, but racing is a multi tier and multi component system. You could be as fast as you want but if the construction of the car compromises the longevity it clearly isn't the fastest car over an entire race weekend. Point still stands people who hated Michael then for his continuous winning, attitude in the press, on track antics and the feeling he and Ferrari were constantly trying to cheat the system at weak points are all the same reason you hypocrites hate Vettel now. What's more amusing is you just don't like the parallel, because that is sacrilege to Schumi's credit.

I don't have to repeat myself every thread. My beef with Vettel isn't the fact that he's winning. It's that he doesn't deserve it, and that he's a **** of personality.

And as far as antics go, there are many types of ***holes. Guys like Senna were scumbags on the track, and just like Sebastian he gave the impression he'd still celebrate a victory if he was the only one racing. However he appeared to be a much kinder, mature adult when he wasn't racing. Can't say the same for Vettel. Schumacher on the other hand, "cheated" in his career or not, never once came off as a selfish arrogant prick. Furthermore, he's ALWAYS been a genuinely GREAT driver on a single lap, through the race and wheel to wheel no matter what car he was put in.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

What does any of that have to do with the single grand prix in question?

What grand prix were you referring to in which Vettel came from the very back to the podium?

It has plenty for one it dispels the silly notion that Vettel's car was nth times faster than anyone else. When it wasn't also even if cars broke down from attrition he still had to drive from last place to a podium, in a field that was arguably stronger than this years. If you actually read the thread you'll see what races and season I refer to as showing Vettel had/has talent and speed.

I don't have to repeat myself every thread. My beef with Vettel isn't the fact that he's winning. It's that he doesn't deserve it, and that he's a **** of personality.

We don't follow your mundane life and hate for Vettel, I doubt anyone cares or knows why you hate the guy beyond reminding us like you've just done. Why doesn't he deserve it? Also you just proved my point somewhat in the parallels of Schumi hate being just like current Vettel hate.

And as far as antics go, there are many types of ***holes. Guys like Senna were scumbags on the track, and just like Sebastian he gave the impression he'd still celebrate a victory if he was the only one racing. However he appeared to be a much kinder, mature adult when he wasn't racing. Can't say the same for Vettel. Schumacher on the other hand, "cheated" in his career or not, never once came off as a selfish arrogant prick. Furthermore, he's ALWAYS been a genuinely GREAT driver on a single lap, through the race and wheel to wheel no matter what car he was put in.

Do you know anything about Vettel off the track to make such a statement? Vettel too has proven all of that as well the point I make with cheating which you fail to comprehend any time you decide to talk F1, is that just like people call Michael a cheat, they also call Vettel one, JGreens is prime example of doing such. Schumi came off as a jerk through most of his career on the track and off the track in interviews and was blasted in the media plenty of times for it. The Senna part I agree with you on, though I wouldn't call him a scumbag.

All in all you seem to have a chip on your shoulder for no reason.

 

[Seismica]

I'm sick of hearing this, seriously. He NEVER had the fastest car until 2004. The Mclaren was faster. Remember those cars designed by Newey? The same guy designing the RBs now?

Wait, the 2002 Ferrari wasn't the fastest car on the grid? I think you're going a bit far by insinuating Schumi never had the fastest car before 2004. He was always able to compete at the front, for poles etc. the car was either on par with or faster than the Mclaren, and when it wasn't it had better reliability. The year he broke his leg he had the fastest car too, so rightly he should have got 8 championships. Also, I think you underestimate Hakkinen's ability.

To translate this to the Vettel discussion, nobody can deny that Vettel is an amazing talent and clearly one of the all time greats. But you also can't deny that he has had the car underneath him each year he has won it. Meanwhile the likes of Alonso and Hamilton have kept him honest in cars that are either not as fast, consistent or reliable enough to seriously challenge the Red Bull. 2012 was the turning point in my opinion, because the Red Bull wasn't the dominant car on pace. What it did have is bulletproof reliability and it was consistently challenging at the front at every circuit. But this isn't enough to win, you need a fantastic driver to take the car home and get good points at every circuit. Vettel's 2012 championship put's his abilities beyond doubt.

I don't like Vettel, I think he's become a little arrogant and behaves like a petulent child at times. But he's a cracking driver. the argument that he's only good because he's in the fastest car isn't valid, no more than it was with Schumi. A fast car is the most basic pre-requisite for success in this sport, you can't win a championship in a slow car without a bit of good luck (Though you can win the odd wet race, which Vettel proved in 2008, as Button proved in 2006 etc.).

 

[SagarisGTB]

Wait, the 2002 Ferrari wasn't the fastest car on the grid? I think you're going a bit far by insinuating Schumi never had the fastest car before 2004. He was always able to compete at the front, for poles etc. the car was either on par with or faster than the Mclaren, and when it wasn't it had better reliability. The year he broke his leg he had the fastest car too, so rightly he should have got 8 championships. Also, I think you underestimate Hakkinen's ability.

Many people overestimate Hakkinen's ability as well, it goes both ways.

The Ferrari also clearly wasn't on par with the McLaren in (most of) 1998, and chunks of 1999. I think Schumacher's level in that era (say 1998-2001) often flattered the cars he was driving. For example, in 2001 Ralf and Coulthard were often on Schumacher's pace in supposedly inferior cars and regularly outpaced Barrichello. The Williams and McLarens of that era were better than many give them credit for, they gave opportunities to inferior drivers to compete with the superior Ferrari pairing.

But the Ferrari was clearly the fastest car in 2002, I wouldn't disagree with that.

 

[daan]

Can we get back to discussing the actual 2013 Italian Grand Prix? Thanks.

 

[SVT Cobra GT]

To translate this to the Vettel discussion, nobody can deny that Vettel is an amazing talent and clearly one of the all time greats. But you also can't deny that he has had the car underneath him each year he has won it. Meanwhile the likes of Alonso and Hamilton have kept him honest in cars that are either not as fast, consistent or reliable enough to seriously challenge the Red Bull. 2012 was the turning point in my opinion, because the Red Bull wasn't the dominant car on pace. What it did have is bulletproof reliability and it was consistently challenging at the front at every circuit. But this isn't enough to win, you need a fantastic driver to take the car home and get good points at every circuit. Vettel's 2012 championship put's his abilities beyond doubt.

I don't like Vettel, I think he's become a little arrogant and behaves like a petulent child at times. But he's a cracking driver. the argument that he's only good because he's in the fastest car isn't valid, no more than it was with Schumi. A fast car is the most basic pre-requisite for success in this sport, you can't win a championship in a slow car without a bit of good luck (Though you can win the odd wet race, which Vettel proved in 2008, as Button proved in 2006 etc.).

I would agree with most of that. Vettel has to have some talent to take a great car to victories and championships. I doubt that any Tom, Dick and Harry standing in the grandstands could do that. I admit it does frustrate me when he wins by a country mile and does it regularly but I would say that about any driver if they were doing it. If it becomes a forgone conclusion then it's not worth watching. I have seen races where Vettel has either won or earned a podium and had a huge scrap with loads of people to get there. For me his 2010 championship was the most deserved as he never lead the championship until he won it and he kept placing highly when the car didn't break down.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Guys we've been told to move on.

 

[BHRxRacer]

Wait, the 2002 Ferrari wasn't the fastest car on the grid? I think you're going a bit far by insinuating Schumi never had the fastest car before 2004.

Read my 2nd post

Can we get back to discussing the actual 2013 Italian Grand Prix? Thanks.

I suggest you make a separate thread for general F1 discussions or something, moving all the off-topic posts there.