Formula 1 Gulf Air Bahrain Grand Prix 2021Formula 1 

  • Thread starter Jimlaad43
  • 349 comments
  • 16,695 views
Red Bull fans need to cool it. A bit too conditioned by Max having one chance a year to stop Lewis driving to a pit stop lead in the first stint. Guys, this early season is looking different. It was Merc who had to do that work.

I was happy to see Lewis win a race that he really had to work for, but it was a shame to see Max throw away his last chance with some silly overdriving in the final moments. I think he could have got close enough to send another one otherwise.

Really thrilling race end to end I thought, what a pleasure to see McLaren battling Ferrari as if all is well in the world. Some great debuts for new teams and rookies up and down the grid but I say give rookie of the year to Tsunoda right now, he brought such a fantastic energy this weekend and I was glad to see him keep his chin up and make progress after a disappointing Q2. He has all the energy of someone we are gonna fall in love while he's in the AT - protect him from RB at all costs!

Great start to the season for my favoured McLarens too - a big statement from Lando, I thought. I have faith it won't take much more running for Ricciardo to extract a bit more from the car.
 
MaxAttack
Some great debuts for new teams and rookies up and down the grid but I say give rookie of the year to Tsunoda right now, he brought such a fantastic energy this weekend and I was glad to see him keep his chin up and make progress after a disappointing Q2. He has all the energy of someone we are gonna fall in love while he's in the AT - protect him from RB at all costs!
Click to expand...

I watched Tsunoda's post race interview with Sky. He said he got emotional when he overtook Alonso since that is his father's favorite driver and someone that Yuki has always looked up to. He seems like a great guy and I'm really rooting for him too.
 
Jubby
A top driver knows the limits. They know the lines. They know what they should do. They choose not to. To feign ignorance of the actual limit is deceptive. That's what Lewis was doing on ghe radio. A simple acknowledgement would be more becoming, like most drivers. He got caught and tried to blubber it away... which isn't a good look. This is the second time in recent history he tried this (Russia practice start). That is why I take exception to it.

I know racing drivers are supposed to find every edge and push every boundary, as they should. If he was trying to test the limits and justify his reason for going outside of the track limits, then okay. He didn't. He tried to dispute the limit. When you have all 4 wheels on/over the artificial turf, you're over the limit. Whether they enforced the racing limit does not mean the limit is not there. That's the purpose of the white lines and red/white kerbs and every professional (and most amateur drivers) know it. A 7 time WDC champion, and arguably the greatest, knows the limits and rules. To feign ignorance is deceptive (I shortened it to lying). To say he was confused, I feel is BS. Max knew it was out of bounds, which is why he had to be told it was "acceptable". Lewis is supposed to be the better driver. Again, let's not confuse monitoring/enforcement with the actual track limits.

Edit: To look at the tweet above shows over 20 instances, which is egregious. Everyone in this board knows that's beyond the track limit. A slip once or twice is a mistake. Nearly 30 times is intentional. You can't justify exceeding the limit like that, as per the article you indicated in the briefing.
Click to expand...
I pretty much have up on motor racing when I saw a GT3 race around Paul Ricard. The drivers were told by race control the the corner at the end of the mistral would not be monitored. Every car completely ignored the track and took a completely different line totally in the blue tarmac area. I switched the stream off and it was a while before I watched another race.
 
This whole "track limits" thing is mental.

All drivers were told T4 wasn't going to be monitored for track limits in terms of lap time during the race in the briefing before anyone set wheel on the track.

Verstappen and Hamilton both ran four wheels past the white line every lap during the race, as did literally every other driver.

Verstappen complained on the radio about it to Red Bull, as if to draw the stewards' attention to how far off Hamilton was going (and he was indeed going much further). Red Bull told him he could do that too, and he did - after asking how that was legal.

The stewards then told drivers to stop it, after half the race had already gone. Mercedes told Hamilton to do it as he had been doing in qualifying (two wheels past, not four), while Verstappen returned to four-wheels past as he had been before complaining about it.

That's all highly stupid. The Race Director shouldn't be redefining the conditions set in the pre-weekend driver briefing half way through a race, but...


... none of it has anything to do with Verstappen having to exceed track limits to complete his overtake, and being told to cede the place as per rule 27.3.
 
Last edited:
Famine
This whole "track limits" thing is mental.

All drivers were told T4 wasn't going to be monitored for track limits in terms of lap time during the race in the briefing before anyone set wheel on the track.
Click to expand...

I took that to mean that electronic monitoring wasn't in place and that a translation error had occurred in the multi-lingual paddock, but as the weekend developed it was clear that it wasn't even being considered. Until it was. Which, as you say, is highly stupid. Arguably there's an advantage there for one team over another, if they'd known it was coming*.

None of the drivers were allowed to overtake there, and that is indeed in a different rule, but it's still inconsistent. Many others have already posted here and elsewhere to point out the blindingly obvious: use the white lines. Or move them if they're in the wrong place. It's a bit sad for F1 that this issue keeps coming up but the solutions are all in their hands. They should get on with it.

*I'm not suggesting for a moment that that's what happened but the rules have to be fair and consistent to prevent inadvertent advantages being given
 
Famine
... none of it has anything to do with Verstappen having to exceed track limits to complete his overtake, and being told to cede the place as per rule 27.3.
Click to expand...
This is what I'm having trouble with though.

The rule is clear that you cannot complete an overtake by exceeding track limits... but what happens when the definition of track limits is changed for a specific turn, as the race director seemed to imply by saying "the defining limits are the artificial grass and the gravel trap in that location" during the race??

Regarding the decision to order Verstappen to relinquish the race lead, the race director said “It wasn’t for exceeding the track limits... it was for gaining a lasting advantage by overtaking another car off the racetrack.”.... now that I just don't understand. How can you be 'off the racetrack' but 'not exceeding track limits'?
 
Last edited:
Touring Mars
The rule is clear that you cannot complete an overtake by exceeding track limits... but what happens when the definition of track limits is changed for a specific turn, as the race director seemed to imply by saying "the defining limits are the artificial grass and the gravel trap in that location" during the race??

Regarding the decision to order Verstappen to relinquish the race lead, the race director said “It wasn’t for exceeding the track limits... it was for gaining a lasting advantage by overtaking another car off the racetrack.”.... now that I just don't understand. How can you be 'off the racetrack' but 'not exceeding track limits'?
Click to expand...
Well, the regs also say that "for the avoidance of doubt", the racetrack is defined by the white lines. So one can be off the racetrack (past the white lines) but also not outside of track limits as set by the race director.

We just tend to stick "track limits" and "racetrack" together, because it makes sense to. Apparently not in F1 :lol:
Tired Tyres
2 to 4 metres grass
Click to expand...
Tall, but pretty effective :D
 
Famine
Well, the regs also say that "for the avoidance of doubt", the racetrack is defined by the white lines. So one can be off the racetrack (past the white lines) but also not outside of track limits as set by the race director.

We just tend to stick "track limits" and "racetrack" together, because it makes sense to. Apparently not in F1 :lol:

Tall, but pretty effective :D
Click to expand...


I can't see the TV networks liking the grass blocking their cameras.
 
Tired Tyres
2 to 4 metres grass then 2 to 4 metres gravel followed by all the tarmac you want.
Click to expand...
Grass, then tarmac. Gravel too close to the exit of a high speed corner creates more problems than solutions. Gravel works well on slower corners, or far enough away behind tarmac that the cars should have lost some speed before then. Anthony Davidson's example of T1 at Silverstone is what tracks should be - tarmac after the white line until it reaches the point where an advantage could be gained by crossing the white line - where it becomes grass. Tarmac behind that means that cars can still make a mistake and rejoin safely later without gaining any advantage. I've spend 10 years marshalling watching gravel traps turn "safe" accidents into "unsafe" ones. They are rightfully outdated.
 
Touring Mars
This is what I'm having trouble with though.

The rule is clear that you cannot complete an overtake by exceeding track limits... but what happens when the definition of track limits is changed for a specific turn, as the race director seemed to imply by saying "the defining limits are the artificial grass and the gravel trap in that location" during the race??

Regarding the decision to order Verstappen to relinquish the race lead, the race director said “It wasn’t for exceeding the track limits... it was for gaining a lasting advantage by overtaking another car off the racetrack.”.... now that I just don't understand. How can you be 'off the racetrack' but 'not exceeding track limits'?
Click to expand...
The important phrase is the "lasting advantage" bit.

Measuring how much laptime Hamilton gained by going wide is a lot more subjective than overtaking another car. That's objectively a lasting advantage!
 
If drivers are allowed to go on a part of a track, they should also be able to go on it for overtaking, otherwise it doesn't make any sense.
 
kungtotte_
The important phrase is the "lasting advantage" bit.

Measuring how much laptime Hamilton gained by going wide is a lot more subjective than overtaking another.
Click to expand...

Add up the per-lap advantage over 56 laps and it's certainly a lasting advantage.
 
Liquid
Add up the per-lap advantage over 56 laps and it's certainly a lasting advantage.
Click to expand...
Like I said it's more subjective thing to measure. It'd be interesting to compare laptimes over the race for him to see how much time he could've gained.

And it wasn't 56 laps, they were told to stop about halfway through and they did.

Edit:

Found this. It's hard to argue that Lewis gained much if anything by his off track excursions. Max is faster than him at several points and towards the end when Lewis had stopped his laptimes are dropping, so how much ground he actually gained is very hard to measure objectively whereas it's pretty easy to measure an overtake!

Screenshot_20210329-201651-868.png
 
Last edited:
Max Verstappen might have 100+ races under his belt but he's still only 23. For a human being, that's still extremely young and incomplete. He has a lot of time yet to refine his attitude and maturity towards his racing and the circus that goes with it.
 
Judging by the post-race radio, it doesn't really sound like the current Max would have done that either if it wasn't an order by Race Control.
 
Roo
Sam Collins' take on the track limits debacle.
Click to expand...
Same problem as described above... how can it be considered being 'off the track' when the track limits were defined differently at that turn i.e. that the white lines didn't apply as defining track limits at turn 4?

kungtotte_
Found this. It's hard to argue that Lewis gained much if anything by his off track excursions. Max is faster than him at several points and towards the end when Lewis had stopped his laptimes are dropping, so how much ground he actually gained is very hard to measure objectively whereas it's pretty easy to measure an overtake!

View attachment 1000796
Click to expand...
All that graph shows is LH and MV's laptimes... but in order to assess whether LH gained an advantage, you would need to compare LH's actual laptimes with those he would have recorded by sticking to the track limits (as defined by the white lines), which is not really possible. But it is pretty clear that he was gaining an advantage by going wide at Turn 4 otherwise he wouldn't have been doing it.

I think it is fair to say that this issue needs to be avoided in the future and that making one-off exceptions on where, when and how track limit rules apply needs to stop.
 
Jezza819
F1 put together a short montage of Tsunoda's race.

Click to expand...


Great performance, puts me in mind of Kobayashi at Suzuka when nobody told him he couldn't overtake. Hopefully Tsunoda's star will shine a little longer - it certainly looked like some intelligent driving for a rookie. Head and shoulders above the Russian lad.
 
CLowndes888
This track limits issue will solve itself at Imola. Go over the white lines there and you'll go into the grass or gravel in most cases. It's far less forgiving than Bahrain and that's why we love it. Good tracks have consequences.
Click to expand...
As long as it's real grass and not that fake stuff they can get grip on. There have to be consequences for drivers making mistakes. A drive through for first offence would be a start.
 
Last edited:

Latest Posts

Back