Formula 1 Mercedes-Benz Großer Preis von Deutschland 2019Formula 1 

  • Thread starter Jimlaad43
  • 666 comments
  • 17,039 views
1,877
United Kingdom
Bury St Edmunds
GTP_Caine
Courtesy of formulaspy.com:

This regulation states that “The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.”

This is believed to stem back from radio calls made to the driver during the formation laps, concerning car information that isn’t permissible under the rules.

With the team officially summoned before the stewards on Sunday evening, the FIA summons documents says that their offence is “related to clutch torque application during race starts, as defined in the informational Appendix to the 2019 Formula One Sporting Regulations.”

If the Alfa drivers are penalised, it could result in points finishes for Mercedes’ Lewis Hamilton and Williams’ Robert Kubica.
 

TenEightyOne

I'm Slow, But I'm Wide!
Premium
20,678
TenEightyOne
TenEightyOne
30s penalty for each Alfa. That puts Hamilton 9th and Kubica 10th and suggests that there's no built-in cheat in the Alfa.

A point for Williams! :)

I don't think they care too much, they just do their thing. The main problem was just the weather (and maybe still a bit of Hamilton not feeling well)

Toto has been critical of the team undertaking the fancy dress as it was a distraction, it's reasonable to think that the presence of film cameras in settings that are normally highly confidential might also be a problem.
 

PzR Slim

Premium
6,806
England
Europe
GTP_Slim
PzR Slim
30s penalty for each Alfa. That puts Hamilton 9th and Kubica 10th and suggests that there's no built-in cheat in the Alfa.

A point for Williams! :)



Toto has been critical of the team undertaking the fancy dress as it was a distraction, it's reasonable to think that the presence of film cameras in settings that are normally highly confidential might also be a problem.
And after all that Hamilton increases his lead. Crazy race!
 

NotThePrez

Wa-psh-wa-psh-pssh!
Premium
2,469
United States
St.Pete, FL
NotThePrez
NotThePrez
Obviously he's unhappy about the dressing-up side of the weekend but I wonder to what extent the presence of the Netflix team has affected team communications and attitudes?

I was initially making a joke, but being serious for a minute, I wouldn't be surprised if the Netflix presence, since Mercedes themselves gave the green light for Netflix to follow them, just exponentially increased the tension and pressure in the room when things started to go haywire.
 

PzR Slim

Premium
6,806
England
Europe
GTP_Slim
PzR Slim
I was initially making a joke, but being serious for a minute, I wouldn't be surprised if the Netflix presence, since Mercedes themselves gave the green light for Netflix to follow them, just exponentially increased the tension and pressure in the room when things started to go haywire.
Wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't see the light of day.
 

Touring Mars

Moderator
24,420
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
GTP_Mars
After such an exciting, weather-impacted race, there's always calls for 'artificial' rain/sprinklers etc., but it's the random, unpredictable nature of the weather that really makes the excitement factor ramp up.

As such, I have a few suggestions based on today's race:
  • Drop races where it never rains
  • Move European races away from mid-season to increase chance of wet races
  • Hold a Grand Prix in Scotland
  • Hold a Grand Prix in Wales
  • Install drag-strips (or ice rinks) next to all F1 tracks
 

PzR Slim

Premium
6,806
England
Europe
GTP_Slim
PzR Slim
After such an exciting, weather-impacted race, there's always calls for 'artificial' rain/sprinklers etc., but it's the random, unpredictable nature of the weather that really makes the excitement factor ramp up.

As such, I have a few suggestions based on today's race:
  • Drop races where it never rains
  • Move European races away from mid-season to increase chance of wet races
  • Hold a Grand Prix in Scotland
  • Hold a Grand Prix in Wales
  • Install drag-strips (or ice rinks) next to all F1 tracks
Nah. These races are good from time to time but if they happened more often the luck, chance and randomness would begin to take away from the spectacle rather than add to it. Surely we all still want the best driver in the best car to win the championship. Verstappen won today but he had his own spin, if he'd been slightly less lucky it could have been race over for him.
 
938
Switzerland
Zürich
Currently watching the Channel 4 highlights. Had no idea how disorganised the Mercedes pit garage were when Hamilton came in for his replacement wing. Headless chickens spring to mind.

Also amused by Coulthard's take on Hamilton's penalty... "a load of bollards!"

Well in defence of Mercedes' pit crew Hamilton binned it right at the final corner before the pit lane, so when he entered the pits no one knew and there was no time for any preparation.

I totally agree with Coulthard's take on the penalty for two reasons:
  1. Hamilton didn't know how damaged the car was, so to take it around for another lap would have been irresponsible at best given what the car could have left on the track, especially in the prevailing conditions
  2. Driving the car backwards to get round the bollard would have been an unacceptable safety risk to oncoming traffic. He almost certainly would have got a penalty for this as well had he have done so.
The stewards screwed up on this IMO. Hamilton was in a rock and a hard place with this and IMO he made the right choice, unless people think he should have stopped and retired thus causing another incident requiring a safety car.
 
1,193
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
I totally agree with Coulthard's take on the penalty for two reasons:
  1. Hamilton didn't know how damaged the car was, so to take it around for another lap would have been irresponsible at best given what the car could have left on the track, especially in the prevailing conditions
  2. Driving the car backwards to get round the bollard would have been an unacceptable safety risk to oncoming traffic. He almost certainly would have got a penalty for this as well had he have done so.
The stewards screwed up on this IMO. Hamilton was in a rock and a hard place with this and IMO he made the right choice, unless people think he should have stopped and retired thus causing another incident requiring a safety car.
I can't comment on whether the stewards were right to dish out the penalty, but agree with you that Hamilton did the right thing by returning to the pits the way he did. Incredible that he managed not to get beached in the gravel in the first place; there's no way I would've wanted him to go out the same way that Leclerc did.
 

Jimlaad43

GeoGuessr God
Premium
9,877
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Well in defence of Mercedes' pit crew Hamilton binned it right at the final corner before the pit lane, so when he entered the pits no one knew and there was no time for any preparation.

I totally agree with Coulthard's take on the penalty for two reasons:
  1. Hamilton didn't know how damaged the car was, so to take it around for another lap would have been irresponsible at best given what the car could have left on the track, especially in the prevailing conditions
  2. Driving the car backwards to get round the bollard would have been an unacceptable safety risk to oncoming traffic. He almost certainly would have got a penalty for this as well had he have done so.
The stewards screwed up on this IMO. Hamilton was in a rock and a hard place with this and IMO he made the right choice, unless people think he should have stopped and retired thus causing another incident requiring a safety car.
They gave the penalty to him for the wrong reason.

He should have been penalised for crashing under the Safety Car - and more importantly crashing at the post the crash was at. Everyone is lucky that the marshals had retreated and were waiting for clearance to go out again. Imagine what would have happened if there were people out on track - or worse, a truck craning the car away there. Hamilton was lucky to avoid killing a marshal or being killed himself.
 

PzR Slim

Premium
6,806
England
Europe
GTP_Slim
PzR Slim
They gave the penalty to him for the wrong reason.

He should have been penalised for crashing under the Safety Car - and more importantly crashing at the post the crash was at. Everyone is lucky that the marshals had retreated and were waiting for clearance to go out again. Imagine what would have happened if there were people out on track - or worse, a truck craning the car away there. Hamilton was lucky to avoid killing a marshal or being killed himself.
Yeah, how irresponsible of him to chuck it off at that point of the race...
 

Jimlaad43

GeoGuessr God
Premium
9,877
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
That was the first wet race since Hungary 2014 that wasn't won by Lewis Hamilton.
Japan 2014, Britain 2015, Monaco 2016, Britain 2016, Brazil 2016, China 2017, Singapore 2017 and Germany 2018 were all Lewis victories.
 

Roo

Premium
6,802
United Kingdom
Hampshire, UK
GTP_Roo
Yeah, how irresponsible of him to chuck it off at that point of the race...

@Jimlaad43 actually raises a good point that I hadn't considered at the time: there would've been yellow flags out at the site of Leclerc's accident, telling the drivers to slow down. That Hamilton hadn't slowed down enough - had he done so he wouldn't have crashed - should've been what he got a penalty for, and I'm sure that would've been much more severe than the 5 seconds he got for missing the bollard.
 

PeterJB

Compulsive Handwasher
Premium
8,664
United Kingdom
Corsham
lipming
My God that was splendid, exactly what we needed!

Verstappen: I think he is doomed to win all his races from behind after a lousy start, possibly as an antidote to Vettel's Red Bull wins?

Vettel: What's that, Hamilton fans? This is how you silence the critics, he unfortunately wasn't going to win with one of the front-runners not making an mistakes but that was faultless, one of his best races, the Vettel of old I remember from his Toro Rosso and Red Bull days.

Kyvat: Great to get STR's first podium in 11 years, but I still don't think he should get promoted again, this was a freak result.

Stroll: Drives like that make up for being completely invisible 90% of the time!

Sainz: So good to see McLaren competitive again, Sainz is really proving his worth.

Albon: Not sure how he ended up back in 7th, but that pass on Gasly was very important for his future.

Grosjean: Hit his team mate again, but apparently the cars not quite as lost as it looked.

Magnussen: His tyre choice could've been inspired but was just a bit too early, but two collisions in two races with his team mate does not bode well.

Hamilton: Well well well. 90% of the time Lewis is unbeatable, but when he flops no one flops harder. This performance made Vettel's retribution for last year all the better.

Kubica: He got a point! Probably the only one this year, and like Sirotkin only cause of penalties, but it still counts!

Russell: Got very excited when he was in 7th...until he pitted in. Say what you want about Williams' pace, but they have an impeccable reliability and finishing record and they keep themselves out of trouble, this will serve them well if there are any more chaotic races.

Gasly: Passing Vettel once at Silverstone won't save you this time, he's basically finished.

Bottas: Not quite as finished as Gasly but not far off, this was disappointing as unless Max or Vettel are on the podium in all remaining races no one else can challenge Hamilton. I'm thinking Albon to Red Bull and Ocon to Mercedes next year...

Huelkenberg: Nico is rapidly running of of chances to get a podium, it was a genuine possibility today.

Leclerc: He has a point about that drag strip...they should install one at every track, but like Vettel last year he could've won today so that's a shame.

Norris: Dunno why he retired but he said he's a fan of the wet so wouldn't have expected much anyway.

Ricciardo: Looked alright till the engine blew, probably secretly wishes he was still at Red Bull.

Perez: Gone from challenging Alonso for a wet win to being the first to crash, after nine seasons Perez is fading fast.
 

Jimlaad43

GeoGuessr God
Premium
9,877
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Say what you want about Williams' pace, but they have an impeccable reliability and finishing record and they keep themselves out of trouble, this will serve them well if there are any more chaotic races.
They're the only team with a 100% finishing record so far. When you're at the back, this and great pitstops are really the only thing you can do and you just have to hope for a crazy race like this one to sneak a lucky point.
 

PzR Slim

Premium
6,806
England
Europe
GTP_Slim
PzR Slim
Roo
@Jimlaad43 actually raises a good point that I hadn't considered at the time: there would've been yellow flags out at the site of Leclerc's accident, telling the drivers to slow down. That Hamilton hadn't slowed down enough - had he done so he wouldn't have crashed - should've been what he got a penalty for, and I'm sure that would've been much more severe than the 5 seconds he got for missing the bollard.
How do you know he didn't slow down by an acceptable amount but still crashed? After all, it's often said an F1 car is very tricky to drive at very slow speeds in such conditions. See Vettel last year.
 
1,970
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Race Recap:

🤬 What a 🤬 race.

I can't even.

Good thing I'm not alone. I couldn't come up with anything either having just watched the highlights. Wow! :eek:

Hamilton only made on big mistake, and that's what colored the rest of his race, with all the damage to the car.

Bottas is the bigger problem. With a dominant car he should have made short work of Stroll rather than binning it behind him.

But much of this can be down to the Mercedes not being able to handle the changing conditions.

-

In fact, all top three cars showed weaknesses today. Red Bull's horrid traction issues in the wetter parts of the race. Ferrari's turbos. Merc's lack of front end grip in that last corner.

A lot of it down to the lack of data in running in these conditions.

Perhaps the FIA should just wipe everyone's engineering hard drives each Friday.

This is the sort of argument I've had time and again with friends when they were moaning that F1 had lost its way: the less prepared the teams are, the more interesting the race could be. When a weekend goes "according to plan", then the form book usually remains unaltered, barring the odd break down/crash. But if there's any interruption of any kind in that preparation, then said form book is re-written, if only for that race.

If F1 wants to create "exciting" racing, then one of the things it could do is reduce the amount of time teams have in preparation for when it counts on Sunday. If there has to be practice then get rid of FP1 and FP2, but reduce FP3 to just 45 minutes instead of an hour and keep it on Saturday morning: less time in-between sessions. Yes, the weather can't be controlled, but if the time spent on circuit across the weekend can be reduced, then there's less data to work from, and a good chance that not everyone will have found the optimum set-up for their cars in time for race day (or indeed qualifying), meaning that situations like today's race in Germany are more likely to arise.

True, a lot of things would have to align for that particular outcome to happen again, but if teams are not fully prepared, it at least opens the door for a larger amount of variables to take place.

There are obviously clear instructions from Liberty that when the crowd starts cheering an incident or an overtake, the audio engineer is to crank the audience channel to 11.

Just like MotoGP tends to do whenever Rossi makes a pass. Haven't heard/seen much of those lately... :rolleyes:
 

Jimlaad43

GeoGuessr God
Premium
9,877
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
How do you know he didn't slow down by an acceptable amount but still crashed? After all, it's often said an F1 car is very tricky to drive at very slow speeds in such conditions. See Vettel last year.
As somebody who's stood in gravel traps with cars flying into them, I can tell you that it doesn't matter how slow you go, if you spin off, you clearly weren't going at acceptable speeds. Crashing under the Safety Car is the ultimate no-no.
 

Liquid

Fission Mailed
Premium
24,467
Slovakia
Bratvegas
GTP_Liquid
How do you know he didn't slow down by an acceptable amount but still crashed? After all, it's often said an F1 car is very tricky to drive at very slow speeds in such conditions. See Vettel last year.

I'm sure he slowed down relative to his previous race pace but if he crashed, he didn't slow down enough.
 
6,063
Palestine
Palestine
BALD_GYE
Well in defence of Mercedes' pit crew Hamilton binned it right at the final corner before the pit lane, so when he entered the pits no one knew and there was no time for any preparation.

I totally agree with Coulthard's take on the penalty for two reasons:
  1. Hamilton didn't know how damaged the car was, so to take it around for another lap would have been irresponsible at best given what the car could have left on the track, especially in the prevailing conditions
  2. Driving the car backwards to get round the bollard would have been an unacceptable safety risk to oncoming traffic. He almost certainly would have got a penalty for this as well had he have done so.
The stewards screwed up on this IMO. Hamilton was in a rock and a hard place with this and IMO he made the right choice, unless people think he should have stopped and retired thus causing another incident requiring a safety car.

Indeed I felt it was a tad silly that they gave him the penalty, as Lecerc escaped without one for his pit lane issue
 
2,791
Netherlands
Netherlands
PaMu1337
Indeed I felt it was a tad silly that they gave him the penalty, as Lecerc escaped without one for his pit lane issue
The ruling for the bollard makes sense, but it should probably include an exception for cases like this. Still, even with the penalty it was probably faster to do this, then to drive around (were it not that they botched the pitstop)