Formula 1 Mercedes-Benz Großer Preis von Deutschland 2019Formula 1 

  • Thread starter Jimlaad43
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baldgye
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Thank you for posting that, it answers the question I posed in my previous post about whether other cars were in the same situation as Hamilton - on slicks in the rain. It appears they were, and all were able to get around the corner, which suggests to me that Lewis was driving too quickly for the conditions.

baldgye
I'm not missing what you are saying, I'm fundamentally disagreeing with the notion that its 'ok' and 'not ok' to crash. There isn't anywhere I've seen in the rules any mention of 'do not crash', only; do not drive to slowly or dangerously, Lewis didn't do either in my opinion
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This is the crux of the matter. I think, by crashing, Lewis demonstrated that he was driving dangerously, in that he wasn't in complete control of the car. If he wasn't driving dangerously he wouldn't have crashed, but he did, so he was.

baldgye
and the stewards opinion.
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And that's what concerns me more than anything Hamilton did. I feel it was sufficiently dangerous to at least warrant an investigation, yet the race director decided it wasn't worth looking at. If I was a driver, or a marshal, I'd be very worried about the precedent that sets.

It does appear to me that Leclerc (and all the drivers) need reminding of a basic rule of working alongside moving vehicles, something I do on a daily basis in my job: always keep an eye on the oncoming traffic.

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As an aside, I'm not sure if an incident goes to the stewards if the race director doesn't tell them to investigate it; I'd be interested to know who decides what's worthy of an investigation and what isn't.
 
GroupB
Sometimes when I read a lot of these well-reasoned arguments for/against a driver’s actions, I eventually start thinking that the bottom line is that the poster basically likes/doesn’t like the guy. The incident is secondary to pre-existing biases.
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If anything, it makes it very easy to spot the die-hard fans. When nearly everybody agrees on something and a few people fight a serious uphill battle it doesn't take really an Einstein to work out why that's the case.
 
I cannot disagree more with the notion that Hamilton deserves a penalty for crashing, that is just pathetic. He was tip toeing around on the wrong tires for the conditions and made an error.

And I’m not even a fan of the guy.
 
Roo
Thank you for posting that, it answers the question I posed in my previous post about whether other cars were in the same situation as Hamilton - on slicks in the rain. It appears they were, and all were able to get around the corner, which suggests to me that Lewis was driving too quickly for the conditions.
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The slicks had zero grip at that point, which raises the question why did Bottas overrule his team and stay out on them (and an harder compound than Hamilton's)? His team were waiting in the pitlane with his inters when Lewis turned up uninvited. Staying out an extra lap put him behind Verstappen and Hulkenberg.

As things turned out staying out saved him from being parked behind the 1 minute pitstop but he didn't know that at the time.
 
Jimlaad43
Under Safety Car and yellow flags, drivers are Instructed by the flags to not crash, whether intentional or not.
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I can't agree with that and I don't see how you can either.

FIA Sporting Regulations Appendix H
4.1.2 (b): Yellow flag: This is a signal of danger and should be shown to drivers in two ways with the following meanings: - Single waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be prepared to change direction. There is a hazard beside or partly on the track. - Double waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be prepared to change direction or stop. There is a hazard wholly or partly blocking the track. Yellow flags should normally be shown only at the marshals’ post immediately preceding the hazard. In some cases however the Clerk of the Course may order them to be shown at more than one marshals’ post preceding an incident. Overtaking is not permitted between the first yellow flag and the green flag displayed after the incident. Yellow flags should not be shown in the pit lane unless there is an incident of which the driver should be made aware.
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Hamilton didn't appear to be travelling substantially faster than any other car, for every driver on slicks through that corner there was a lot of luck involved - and millimetric accuracy in avoiding a slide. There is no instruction forbidding a crash under yellows, it's just that in normal circumstances it wouldn't happen. As we see at wet races in many disciplines very wet corners buck the trends of normality and if one car goes off at a particular spot the risks are high that another will.

The question you should be asking is why Leclerc wasn't instructed to stay in his car for his own safety and why a full safety car was called so that he could leave exit the gravel trap with no other cars around. I do get the point you're trying to make but, yeah.
 
MikeV27
I cannot disagree more with the notion that Hamilton deserves a penalty for crashing, that is just pathetic. He was tip toeing around on the wrong tires for the conditions and made an error.

And I’m not even a fan of the guy.
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It's Lewis Hamilton...it's why people are whinging so much. He can do nothing right and is not allowed to have an accident. This is the GTP way. If it had been Stroll or some other ignored driver it wouldn't have generated a tiresome chest-thumping argument over the last several pages.
 
TheElbows
It's Lewis Hamilton...it's why people are whinging so much. He can do nothing right and is not allowed to have an accident. This is the GTP way. If it had been Stroll or some other ignored driver it wouldn't have generated a tiresome chest-thumping argument over the last several pages.
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I'll be straight forward here. I don't care who it is. I'm not upset with a driver for going off in bad conditions. I'm upset that Leclerc's car wasn't cleared out any quicker.
 
TenEightyOne
I can't agree with that and I don't see how you can either.
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The yellow flag is an instruction. This is literally the first thing marshals are taught when we do flag training...

All the flags are instructions (except the blue flag, but even that is now an instruction in F1). That is the whole point of them. Drivers must slow down and drive in a way that doesn't put anyone in danger under yellow flags, and anything that can be percieved as dangerous driving (overtaking, spinning, crashing, even abusing track limits) in that area is reported instantly to Race Control by the relevant marshals. What I can't see is how there are people in this thread who think it's fine for drivers to crash into drivers, marshals or recovery trucks.

If you want to read the flag rules, I suggest you do because it is never fine to crash under yellow flags.
http://www.flagmarshal.com/fia-rules/
 
The tide is turning? Compare the points scored in the first 8 races vs the last 3 races.
And we know that RedBull 'always' performs better after the summer break. Also this year?

https://www.gpfans.com/en/standings/2019/

haha those orange glasses work perfect :lol:. But it will also be more enjoyable to keep watching the F1 for the rest of the season for all motorsport enthusiasts.

PS despite the discussions over the Hamilton incidents well or not being penalized. Don't forget he was very ill and forgot a session in the gym.
If I was that sick I would have a good excuse to call my boss for sick leave. And that's why he is in a F1 car and I'm just a bench watcher :dopey:

Let's prepare for a dry race in Hungary.

Ooh and it seems that according Dr Helmut Pierre will not be replaced by another driver (at least not this season)
 
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TheElbows
It's Lewis Hamilton...it's why people are whinging so much. He can do nothing right and is not allowed to have an accident. This is the GTP way. If it had been Stroll or some other ignored driver it wouldn't have generated a tiresome chest-thumping argument over the last several pages.
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Actually I made the exact same point about Grosjean doing the exact same thing five years ago at the Hungarian Grand Prix.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/2014-pirelli-hungarian-grand-prix.313925/page-19#post-9921218


Is this discussion the source of your pithy, fire-and-forget message about GTP heaping hate on a driver?
TheElbows
Enjoyable race, if only because of the chaos. As usual pretty disappointed with the GTPlanet forum regulars. The amount of whinging and bitching and general hate for drivers is pretty pathetic.

Normally I read these threads after the race just to see how everyone reacted. Nice to see that adults can't actually comment on a race without hurling childish insults because someone they don't like did well, or someone they don't like didn't so well.

Way to disappoint. Fun race though.
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Only I did ask you to point out where the "whinging and bitching and general hate for drivers" was as, despite actively participating in the thread during the race and moderating two posts at the time (but not for that reason), I hadn't seen any, and you didn't do so...

... and the discussion of whether a driver should be penalised for crashing under what should be neutralised race conditions for the safety of personnel on track (including their own) doesn't appear to be whinging, bitching, or general hate for a driver unless you assume everyone discussing it who is in favour of a penalty is doing so solely out of hate for the driver - which is faintly nuts.
 
Famine
Actually I made the exact same point about Grosjean doing the exact same thing five years ago at the Hungarian Grand Prix.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/2014-pirelli-hungarian-grand-prix.313925/page-19#post-9921218

... and the discussion of whether a driver should be penalised for crashing under what should be neutralised race conditions for the safety of personnel on track (including their own) doesn't appear to be whinging, bitching, or general hate for a driver unless you assume everyone discussing it who is in favour of a penalty is doing so solely out of hate for the driver - which is faintly nuts.
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Especially as I am quite obviously a Hamilton fan. Penalties are supposed to applied and discussed without bias, hence why the Canada mess happened because a lot of bias appeared in some of the arguments both ways.
 
baldgye
Ok mate, I'm done this is utterly pointless.
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There's not much of a clash of opinions here.

There are facts, such as Hamilton crashing under the safety car(fact), Hamilton being the only person to crash at that corner on that lap(fact), from which you can deduce that he was not driving his car in a controlled manner(fact), which is against the rules that determine how you drive your car under a safety car(fact).

Then there's your opinion, which you are very much entitled to, that seems to overlook all these facts to come to a conclusion that suits you. I wont suggest you are biased, but I gotta say man, the facts are heavily stacked against your interpretation.
 
DesertPenguin
Now Lewis wants the footage for the Netflix show to not be used because he was feeling sick all weekend and c'mon really he's being such a sore loser over this
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i'd just love to have a whole episode of footage of me feeling like utter dog and basically having the worst weekend of the year all over Netflix so everyone can point and laugh at me and make conspiracies about me faking it...

you're right, what a prima donna
 
MaxAttack
i'd just love to have a whole episode of footage of me feeling like utter dog and basically having the worst weekend of the year all over Netflix so everyone can point and laugh at me and make conspiracies about me faking it...

you're right, what a prima donna
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A true champion will admit that somedays, they just don't have it.

So far all we've heard about it since the GP, are constant remarks about how sick he was. I'm surprised he's not wanting any of the F1 YouTube channel stuff removed too, where we can look at all of the incidences how many times we want to.
 
Mercedes being filmed at their home Grand Prix the one weekend they do badly.

QONVIyz.gif
 
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MaxAttack
i'd just love to have a whole episode of footage of me feeling like utter dog and basically having the worst weekend of the year all over Netflix so everyone can point and laugh at me and make conspiracies about me faking it...

you're right, what a prima donna
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Please tell me you're being sarcastic, otherwise just wow...
 
I'm not sure if Hamilton even has a say in what gets put into the show, he might just have to suck it up.
 
MikeV27
I'm not sure if Hamilton even has a say in what gets put into the show, he might just have to suck it up.
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He almost definitely does have a right to stop the release of something that uses his likeness. That's how it works, unless Lewis has signed a contract giving the production company free reign, which isn't impossible but i highly doubt.

Releasing a production for profit using someone's likeness without their permission - especially a walking brand like Lewis - is a big no no.
 
MatskiMonk
Gotta protec that 40 million pound ego.
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Sounds like it, Grosjean had it worse and yet he still made an appearance.

MaxAttack
He almost definitely does have a right to stop the release of something that uses his likeness. That's how it works, unless Lewis has signed a contract giving the production company free reign, which isn't impossible but i highly doubt.

Releasing a production for profit using someone's likeness without their permission - especially a walking brand like Lewis - is a big no no.
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Something tells me they would make the main figures of the team sign some sort of document to be on the show. They also had signs in the in the Mercedes team areas saying "Netlfix filming, enter at your own risk if you don't want to be in the show." or something like that.

edit: these were probably everywhere in the Merc areas.

516ccdbym2d31.jpg
 
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MaxAttack
When you consider how much media an F1 driver does, I can understand not wanting an hour long "my crappiest weekend" special out there.
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When you consider his wage and lifestyle, which is effectively afforded to him by fans of the sport, I don't think anyone should give a **** what he wants.
 

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