Formula 1 STC Saudi Arabian Grand Prix 2021Formula 1 

  • Thread starter Jimlaad43
  • 950 comments
  • 37,265 views
14,338
United Kingdom
Not so Great Britain
I'm glad the FIA highlight that they acknowledge neither driver wanted to cross the DRS line first, because the notion that a 7 time champion, 100+ time race winner, didn't over take because he was confused is absolutely ludicrous. Both drivers were aiming to cross the DRS line second and excuses made suggesting Lewis didn't have the skill, opportunity, space or presence of mind to over take a slowing car are about as partisan as the feint praise for opposition cars or the false indignation around the safety of Max's driving.
 
22,804
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Next season they're probably going to need an actual rule around giving the place back because this isn't the first time we've seen shenanigans and drivers trying to do it "strategically" because it's not a rule, just a race director instruction.
 
Last edited:

MagpieRacer

Premium
13,672
England
Wymondham, Norfolk
Seagull_Racer
Whatever people thought if the incident is up to them but there’s some seriously bad takes on the whole thing here and in other social media outlets. Very narrow minded views being bounded around as fact and unbelievably poor founded assumptions.

Anyone writing that Max is gonna do a Senna and launch it at Hamilton, are absolutely kidding themselves. Both drivers have it in them to potentially do something stupid, both of them have it within them and we’ve seen it from both at various points in their racing careers.

The chances of it happening? Zero. Absolutely nil.
 
22,804
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Whatever people thought if the incident is up to them but there’s some seriously bad takes on the whole thing here and in other social media outlets. Very narrow minded views being bounded around as fact and unbelievably poor founded assumptions.

Anyone writing that Max is gonna do a Senna and launch it at Hamilton, are absolutely kidding themselves. Both drivers have it in them to potentially do something stupid, both of them have it within them and we’ve seen it from both at various points in their racing careers.

The chances of it happening? Zero. Absolutely nil.
Literally doing it on purpose as an "attack", probably not. Doing it as a "I'm gonna legitimately try to pass and if we crash, so be it", very high chance. That has already happened several times between them, most of the time HAM backing off to prevent the crash. A lot of recent VER actions have been "You've got more to lose than me because I'm ahead, you back out", including this race.
 
Last edited:

Liquid

Fission Mailed
Premium
25,548
Slovakia
Bratvegas
GTP_Liquid
Anyone writing that Max is gonna do a Senna and launch it at Hamilton, are absolutely kidding themselves. Both drivers have it in them to potentially do something stupid, both of them have it within them and we’ve seen it from both at various points in their racing careers.

The chances of it happening? Zero. Absolutely nil.

doubt.png


As the driver leading the championship, assuming there are no punishments, Verstappen has nothing to lose in a no-compromise overtake.
 
2,828
Austria
Austria
GTP_SnowCrash
Literally doing it on purpose as an "attack", probably not. Doing it as a "I'm gonna legitimately try to pass and if we crash, so be it", very high chance. That has already happened several times between them, most of the time HAM backing off to prevent the crash. A lot of recent VER actions have been "You've got more to lose than me because I'm ahead, you back out", including this race.
That's certainly true, but that's always the prerogative of the driver being ahead in the championship.

On the other hand, if Verstappen hadn't been harpooned by a certain Mercedes in Hungary (and not to bring up the Silverstone incident), this championship would have been long over by now. So I say he's well entitled to that.
 

MagpieRacer

Premium
13,672
England
Wymondham, Norfolk
Seagull_Racer
Literally doing it on purpose as an "attack", probably not. Doing it as a "I'm gonna legitimately try to pass and if we crash, so be it", very high chance. That has already happened several times between them, most of the time HAM backing off to prevent the crash. A lot of recent VER actions have been "You've got more to lose than me because I'm ahead, you back out", including this race.

View attachment 1098070

As the driver leading the championship, assuming there are no punishments, Verstappen has nothing to lose in a no-compromise overtake.
These are kind of my points. The general assumption is that Verstappen is the only one capable of doing this. Hamilton has every inch the capability to go no holds barred as Verstappen does, and has done frequently. And arguably has less to lose than Max given that he has 7 WDC to Max' 0 but that bit is just my opinion on that.

That other part of my point which I perhaps should have been clearer on is again the attacks from people on the final race theories are implying that Verstappen would deliberately aim to take Hamilton out or that Bottas would aim to take Verstappen out are just so far off the mark, and there's a big difference in my mind between an attempt to take someone out and a legitimate overtake where no one backs down.
 

Liquid

Fission Mailed
Premium
25,548
Slovakia
Bratvegas
GTP_Liquid
I don't think many people are saying that it will happen, just that on balance, Verstappen is more likely of the two to do so.
 

PeterJB

Compulsive Handwasher
Premium
9,009
United Kingdom
Corsham
lipming
Max and Lewis aren't stupid. They both know they risk disqualification if they collide (plus a serious hit to their credibility) and there's also no guarantee of you ending your opponent's race anyway. Lewis would have to guarantee he can damage Max's car without damaging his own, and Max would have to guarantee he can at least terminally damage Lewis' car, and his own if needs be, whilst also making it look like an accident.

With the new modifications at Yas Marina the old turn 8 is now the main choke point, which of course is where Hülkenberg got flipped upside down three years ago. At the end of the day it's probably going to be a big anti-climax. Lewis has his rocket engine, and his car never breaks down, and Max's engine is seven races old and and two of three tight chicanes that tend to favour Red Bull are now gone, so we'll probably just get an Abu Dhabi 2014 where Max breaks down and Lewis cruises to victory.
 

Jimlaad43

GeoGuessr God
Premium
11,003
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
These are kind of my points. The general assumption is that Verstappen is the only one capable of doing this. Hamilton has every inch the capability to go no holds barred as Verstappen does, and has done frequently. And arguably has less to lose than Max given that he has 7 WDC to Max' 0 but that bit is just my opinion on that.

That other part of my point which I perhaps should have been clearer on is again the attacks from people on the final race theories are implying that Verstappen would deliberately aim to take Hamilton out or that Bottas would aim to take Verstappen out are just so far off the mark, and there's a big difference in my mind between an attempt to take someone out and a legitimate overtake where no one backs down.
By "frequently", you've managed to find something other than Silverstone then that Lewis was penalised for?

If frequently means "happens a lot and more than the rival", then you're going to have to do a lot of explaining to find when Lewis has driven dirty this season enough times to overcome Max's poor driving at: Imola turn 1, Spain Turn 1, every corner in the first laps of the Sprint and GP up until Copse at Silverstone, Monza chicane, Brazil T1 Vs Bottas, Brazil T4, Jeddah T1 twice, Jeddah back straight.
Find me 13 examples of Lewis driving like a cock in that space of time and I'll agree with your statement. (Excluding Copse because I've counted that one in the 14, hence why it's 13)
 
Last edited:
22,804
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
When attempting a pass HAM has on occasion done the "squeeze the other driver on exit" thing most drivers do and he goes for moves that aren't really on sometimes (Silverstone, Albon in Brazil) but I've no recollection of him doing anything like VER while defending a move. He usually defends cleanly and fairly. Let's not forget they brought in a rule a few seasons ago to stop people doing the VER, moving very late in defence, although ironically since then VER himself has stopped doing that. Now his move seems to be braking too late to catch back up and force the other driver into yielding or crashing.

That's really the different for me, in defence. Not attack.
 

MagpieRacer

Premium
13,672
England
Wymondham, Norfolk
Seagull_Racer
By "frequently", you've managed to find something other than Silverstone then that Lewis was penalised for?

If frequently means "happens a lot and more than the rival", then you're going to have to do a lot of explaining to find when Lewis has driven dirty this season enough times to overcome Max's poor driving at: Imola turn 1, Spain Turn 1, every corner in the first laps of the Sprint and GP up until Copse at Silverstone, Monza chicane, Brazil T1 Vs Bottas, Brazil T4, Jeddah T1 twice, Jeddah back straight.
Find me 13 examples of Lewis driving like a cock in that space of time and I'll agree with your statement. (Excluding Copse because I've counted that one in the 14, hence why it's 13)
You new to F1 or we just ignoring the 14 years that have gone before this season?

Naive if you think Hamilton is a clean racer. As I said, both have the capability and both have done so in the past. F1 isn't just the 2021 season. Precedents can be set anytime through history, not just your narrow minded view of this battle.
 

Jimlaad43

GeoGuessr God
Premium
11,003
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
You new to F1 or we just ignoring the 14 years that have gone before this season?

Naive if you think Hamilton is a clean racer. As I said, both have the capability and both have done so in the past. F1 isn't just the 2021 season. Precedents can be set anytime through history, not just your narrow minded view of this battle.
I asked for examples and recent ones at that. Lewis has done plenty of silly things in the past, with 2011 being pretty bad, and a few subtle squeezes on Rosberg being borderline silly, but those moves have been par for the course with Max this year and all this season has been is Max driving like an idiot in braking zones, and the two crashes were the times Lewis didn't decide to get out of a crazy Dutchman's way.

I asked you to show recent examples and all you've done is go for vitriol, insults and no evidence. I'm waiting very patiently for you to bring up evidence to shut me up.
 

MagpieRacer

Premium
13,672
England
Wymondham, Norfolk
Seagull_Racer
I asked for examples and recent ones at that. Lewis has done plenty of silly things in the past, with 2011 being pretty bad, and a few subtle squeezes on Rosberg being borderline silly, but those moves have been par for the course with Max this year and all this season has been is Max driving like an idiot in braking zones, and the two crashes were the times Lewis didn't decide to get out of a crazy Dutchman's way.

I asked you to show recent examples and all you've done is go for vitriol, insults and no evidence. I'm waiting very patiently for you to bring up evidence to shut me up.
It is completely and utterly pointless with you. There's plenty of examples some of which you have already mentioned, but given that you clearly hate Verstappen, he will always be at fault regardless of whether Hamilton was or not. So just go back to your own examples and look at them from a neutral perspective (impossible for you I know). Also, to label the Robserg incidents as "subtle squeezes" and "borderline silly" is a slight understatement. 2016 the perfect example of the lack of sportsmanship Lewis can have in a title fight situation.

Anyway:

Imola turn 1: Like seriously? Ver has the corner and takes the corner, Ham tries to stick with him and goes off, racing incident if you can even classify that as an incident.

Spain Turn 1: Again, is this even being classed as an incident? Late brake into the corner, elbows out? Behave, again can't even class that as a racing "incident", it's called racing.

Every corner in the first laps of the Sprint and GP up until Copse at Silverstone: Now you're having us on. Sprint race, great racing from both, lightning start from Max, broke the tow down the Wellington, legally, held position. GP? incredible wheel to wheel racing before the crash, racing incident, neither at fault imo, Ham could have backed off slightly but like I've said above, Hamilton is as likely to go all in as Max. Lewis took the pen, lacked sportsmanship afterwards.

Monza chicane: 50/50. Perfectly entitled to go for the move, Lewis perfectly entitled to defend it, sausage kerb on the left made that accident look far worse than it ought to have been. Ver took the penalty anyway and did lack some sportsmanship afterwards.

Brazil T1 Vs Bottas: What happened here sorry? If you're classing the overtake here as an incident or poor driving from Verstappen then I'm sorry but I don't know what you want this sport to be.

Brazil T4: Both go deep on the brakes, both go off, I questioned whether Lewis would make the corner with how late he braked anyway. We'll never know. Stewards were the biggest fault here by not penalising Verstappen showing a lack of consistency vs other incidents.

Jeddah T1 twice: Indeed, stuff was happening at T1 all weekend in F2 at the starts. F1 was inevitable, happened to be Max and Lewis, was penalised both times in terms of giving places back, role reversal would have seen exactly the same happen. But they were ambitious moves no less. Turn 1 antics are always less policed at race starts anyway but that still doesn't change anything. Had he not ceded position at the first restart he would have been penalised and the second one is below.

Jeddah back straight: Bit more open to interpretation this one, does Max brake harder than he needed to? Absolutely, telemetry proves it, no doubts there, does Lewis muck up passing him by slowing down and not driving into enormous gap left to the left of Max, absolutely. Both should have been penalised as it was poor driving from both parties.

It's all an absolute masterclass in creating nonsense out of nothing. Both drivers have had big flashpoints and blame apportioned for large incidents, other than that we've had hard racing and crap stewarding.
 

Jimlaad43

GeoGuessr God
Premium
11,003
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Given that you clearly hate Hamilton, he will always be at fault regardless of whether Verstappen was or not.

So, me claiming Austin and Suzuka 2015 were "subtle squeezes" is an understatement but Imola and Barcelona were "elbows out"? Do you not see why I can't take anything you've typed there seriously when every statement is hypocritical compared to the last one?

Was Lewis deserving of a penalty at Silverstone? Yes. When I saw the crash my reaction was always "Lewis needs penalising". Does that mean he was fully to blame? Absolutely not as Max didn't need to squeeze as much as shown by the many overtakes that have happened into the corner without collision.



You still haven't found examples of Lewis frequently driving into other cars. I'm a very evidence based guy and am happy to change my opinion on things is presented with good evidence that backs up a claim. So far all I've had is skating around the question or rewriting the truth.
 

MagpieRacer

Premium
13,672
England
Wymondham, Norfolk
Seagull_Racer
Given that you clearly hate Hamilton, he will always be at fault regardless of whether Verstappen was or not.

So, me claiming Austin and Suzuka 2015 were "subtle squeezes" is an understatement but Imola and Barcelona were "elbows out"? Do you not see why I can't take anything you've typed there seriously when every statement is hypocritical compared to the last one?

Was Lewis deserving of a penalty at Silverstone? Yes. When I saw the crash my reaction was always "Lewis needs penalising". Does that mean he was fully to blame? Absolutely not as Max didn't need to squeeze as much as shown by the many overtakes that have happened into the corner without collision.



You still haven't found examples of Lewis frequently driving into other cars. I'm a very evidence based guy and am happy to change my opinion on things is presented with good evidence that backs up a claim. So far all I've had is skating around the question or rewriting the truth.
I haven’t said anywhere that I favour or dislike either driver. You’re the one calling out those 2015 incidents, ignoring Bahrain, Spain, Abu Dhabi. Given that you didn’t specify which of the many Rosberg incidents you were supposedly citing and then deciding afterwards. Also if you’re declaring them subtle squeezes and then calling about Verstappen for unsportsmanlike driving then your hypocrisy is just as bad. There’s no truth to rewrite. I’ve given my takes on your Verstappen is to blame for everything tirade and you even cited one of those examples of Lewis driving into another car yourself. So that’s now theoretically 2-1 to Hamilton in driving into Max (Silverstone, Jeddah to Monza) thereby more frequent no?
 

Jimlaad43

GeoGuessr God
Premium
11,003
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
How many times has Max had to jump out of Lewis' way this season compared to the amount Lewis has had to jump out of Max's?

Also I'm sure Max was the one who got the penalty in Jeddah and Monza, so surely by your reckoning that's 2 penalties for Max compared to 1 for Lewis.
 

MagpieRacer

Premium
13,672
England
Wymondham, Norfolk
Seagull_Racer
How many times has Max had to jump out of Lewis' way this season compared to the amount Lewis has had to jump out of Max's?

Also I'm sure Max was the one who got the penalty in Jeddah and Monza, so surely by your reckoning that's 2 penalties for Max compared to 1 for Lewis.
Correct. From Lewis driving into Max twice. You wanna keep going round in circles? Neither driver is a saint. You can keep telling yourself Hamilton is but neither are. Been proven this season and many other seasons besides. My initial point stands, both drivers are as likely to cause an incident as the other.
 
1,160
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
evildave333
Correct. From Lewis driving into Max twice. You wanna keep going round in circles? Neither driver is a saint. You can keep telling yourself Hamilton is but neither are. Been proven this season and many other seasons besides. My initial point stands, both drivers are as likely to cause an incident as the other.
The post truth generation. Opinion is more important than fact.
 

MagpieRacer

Premium
13,672
England
Wymondham, Norfolk
Seagull_Racer
If contact is the only metric by which you decide that driving is bad, no wonder your takes on the two drivers have been so poor
No, but you asked me to specify the frequency of Hamilton driving into people (repeatedly). You didn’t ask for the frequency of drivers being near each other.
 

Jimlaad43

GeoGuessr God
Premium
11,003
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
No, but you asked me to specify the frequency of Hamilton driving into people (repeatedly). You didn’t ask for the frequency of drivers being near each other.
So you're now backtracking?

To which you still haven't given me any more. I gave 14 examples of Max getting too close to other cars, you have merely given your own theory on those and not brought any in.

In fact I brought up even more examples of Lewis driving into other cars. So what is going on? As I said, I am happy to change my opinion if you are able to find this evidence. But you haven't, so why should any of us listen to you any more?
 

Pupik

old hand
Staff Emeritus
18,158
United States
Randomlandia
Welcome to the post-post-post-responsibility generation of F1 drivers.

Anytime a driver only has 2-3 questionable overtakes in a season, that's pretty good. But yet, bad. And that's why they're questionable...there's enough difficulty and distraction in driving a modern F1 car that we can allow a hiccup or two.

However, Verstappen had more than that in a single race.
 
Last edited:

Blitz24

Chromalusion Member
Premium
17,324
United States
NJ/USA
Blitzbay
Blitzbay
Welcome to the post-post-post-responsibility generation of F1 drivers.

Anytime a driver only has 2-3 questionable overtakes in a season, that's pretty good. But yet, bad. And that's why they're questionable...there's enough difficulty and distraction in driving a modern F1 car that we can allow a hiccup or two.

However, Verstappen had more than that in a single race.
A possibly simple solution to fix a DRS cheeky move would be to disable DRS (or give orders that DRS is disabled) to the driver who is forced to give back the position until the lap AFTER the position is relinquished.
 

MagpieRacer

Premium
13,672
England
Wymondham, Norfolk
Seagull_Racer
A possibly simple solution to fix a DRS cheeky move would be to disable DRS (or give orders that DRS is disabled) to the driver who is forced to give back the position until the lap AFTER the position is relinquished.
Far too simple for the FIA. 😂