Formula One 2011 Airtel Grand Prix of India

[The Outlaw]

The same crap (in a slightly different fashion) seems to happen at Red Bull, so big friggin deal. Then you got Vettel blabbering about how he's going to try and help Mark pick up a win in the remaining races...my ass

 

[Centura]

The same crap (in a slightly different fashion) seems to happen at Red Bull, so big friggin deal. Then you got Vettel blabbering about how he's going to try and help Mark pick up a win in the remaining races...my ass

I'm pretty sure you mean Horner. Webber doesn't even want to be gifted wins and said so in India.

 

[The Outlaw]

Yea, it was Horner who said that.

 

[niky]

If all you need to do is compromise the lead car's line, then you would get everyone late breaking on the inside of corners to push the lead car of the racing line. If they hold their ground, it would be their fault for a collision and that doesn't make any sense.

He's far behind you when you apex, he hits you. He gets a penalty. Nice, isn't it?

In this case, Hamilton was already there. Massa had to cede the apex.

Hamilton put Massa in a really difficult position; Surrender the place or let him hit your car. In my opinion, putting another driver into a position like that qualifies as dirty driving. If you do an overtake right the other driver shouldn't have to change his line at all (Or if he does, it should only be when he's staring at the back of your car on a corner exit).

That would make every single overtake into and out of a corner this season "dirty".

 

[Seismica]

He's far behind you when you apex, he hits you. He gets a penalty. Nice, isn't it?

In this case, Hamilton was already there. Massa had to cede the apex.

He wasn't at the apex though, he was over half a car length behind when they hit the braking zone.

It's simple geometry, to make the apex Massa has to turn in earlier than Hamilton. To get to the apex first Hamilton has to be far enough alongside so that the other driver has to concede the corner. Massa didn't have to concede the corner, he was ahead and he had the racing line.

Hamilton braked early, to back out. Just like at Singapore, he didn't back out quite enough. He caused the contact, but it was an error of judgement, there was no malice and he wasn't being overly aggressive like he was at Monaco. As others have said, this is the definition of a racing incident. Massa should not have been penalised.

That would make every single overtake into and out of a corner this season "dirty".

Yes, but there are different levels of dirty overtakes. There seems to be an accepted level of dirtyness; i.e. pushing the other driver offline is often necessary to overtake. We saw at Korea on lap 1 Button getting pushed wide 2 or 3 times at hairpins meaning he had to yield. But the low speed nature meant he could pull back onto the racing line after the other car has passed the apex.

At a corner like this you're not pushing them offline, you're pushing them off the circuit completely because it is high speed and there is a chicane with a patch of grass right after it. Alonso or Button (Infact, most drivers) would have thought better of this and would have backed out soon enough to avoid a collision.

I still believe that Massa's drive-through is not an indication that he was at fault, but more a consequence of the fact his car escaped the collision undamaged whereas Lewis lost 30+ seconds having to return to the pits to replace his front wing. Had it been the other way around, I'm 100% certain that Lewis would have got the penalty. Penalties should not be given on the basis of the consequences. Penalties should be given for who was at fault, regardless of the consequences for either driver. Massa was certainly not at fault. I don't think Lewis was either, he simply made a mistake.

EDIT: A distinction needs to be made between fault and mistake. For the purposes of my argument, mistake implies that it was accidental, whereas fault implies that the move was intended but the other driver didn't concede. Lewis did try to back out, he just misjudged the braking zone on the dirty line. He braked a good 10-20 metres earlier than Massa.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I guess the fact that when you watch the videos out there for this wreck and see Massa looking in his mirrors that means nothing, especially knowing quite well (more than any other driver too) how Lewis passes. Also this is the problem that I have with F1 fans that mainly watch F1 (or that's what it seems like), you expect this proper "oh sir let me give you room to pass" Driver 2: "why thank you sir I'm glad you weren't planning to block". It's racing why don't you try and watch some of it outside of F1, the sport gets turned into an Elitist Circus by not all the organization but groups of fans as well.

It's still auto racing and at the end of the day people are there to win, forcing someones hand is the name of the game in racing not going single file and waiting for long straight where you can activate DRS and sail past. That's not racing that is simply convenience, which doesn't help someone in fifth move up to first. Also how is it that Webber and Hamilton fight it out tire to tire and block each other and force a pass on the other?

 

[Seismica]

I guess the fact that when you watch the videos out there for this wreck and see Massa looking in his mirrors that means nothing, especially knowing quite well (more than any other driver too) how Lewis passes. Also this is the problem that I have with F1 fans that mainly watch F1 (or that's what it seems like), you expect this proper "oh sir let me give you room to pass" Driver 2: "why thank you sir I'm glad you weren't planning to block". It's racing why don't you try and watch some of it outside of F1, the sport gets turned into an Elitist Circus by not all the organization but groups of fans as well.

Well Hamilton said after the race he tried to back out. Massa said he saw lewis back out in his mirror (Presumable when Hamilton braked earlier for the corner) which told Massa that the way was clear. I don't get how people can blame Massa for this, it was an overtaking move that Lewis didn't fully commit to and as a result they collided. Neither driver's fault really, Hamilton has shown in the past that he can show restraint, be intelligent and pull back to follow the racing line, letting the other driver defend and compromise his entry.

In Korea it was different between Hamilton and Webber, they would pull back behind the other car before a corner and try and get a cleaner exit, you know, like they used to do in GP2/F3 etc. At no point did any of them dive up the inside of a high speed corner when they were half a car length behind. Turn 5/6 where Webber made his move on Hamilton is a relatively slow complex that allows multiple lines. Where Hamilton collided with Massa, it was a fast corner leading to a tight-ish chicane where there was only one line. Part of racecraft is reading the circuit and planning your overtaking manoevres, not just barging past when your front wheels are in line with their rears.

 

[axletramp]

But surely Hamilton wasn't diving up the inside, he had always been alongside since activating his KERS. If anything he braked early and backed out of a dive. As I understand it the stewards saw that Hamilton was going to make the corner (under control, braking in time, no locking up, etc) albeit on a tighter inside line. It was Massa who was left with the decision on what was going to happen. Either he turned in for the apex and risked a likely collision or he chose a wider line to avoid any contact and could continue to fight. He chose the former and was penalised.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Well Hamilton said after the race he tried to back out. Massa said he saw lewis back out in his mirror (Presumable when Hamilton braked earlier for the corner) which told Massa that the way was clear. I don't get how people can blame Massa for this, it was an overtaking move that Lewis didn't fully commit to and as a result they collided. Neither driver's fault really, Hamilton has shown in the past that he can show restraint, be intelligent and pull back to follow the racing line, letting the other driver defend and compromise his entry.

In Korea it was different between Hamilton and Webber, they would pull back behind the other car before a corner and try and get a cleaner exit, you know, like they used to do in GP2/F3 etc. At no point did any of them dive up the inside of a high speed corner when they were half a car length behind. Turn 5/6 where Webber made his move on Hamilton is a relatively slow complex that allows multiple lines. Where Hamilton collided with Massa, it was a fast corner leading to a tight-ish chicane where there was only one line. Part of racecraft is reading the circuit and planning your overtaking manoevres, not just barging past when your front wheels are in line with their rears.

He didn't dive, your words to me (and others) seem to explain a kamakazi move by Hamilton, Lewis broke early because it looks like Massa saw him there prior to the turn and still choose to keep going over. I can see it in the vid just as you can, and even if Massa didn't see him he should still get a penelty for avoidable collision, just like Lewis should have with Kobiyashi and virtually doing the same thing that Massa did. I clearly see Lewis along side of Massa before the turn due to the slipstream, Massa goes right with Lewis taking the insideline to the left and thus as I said prior one brakes earlier due to the other driver "pretending" that the car to the inside isn't there. I say that because Massa looked in the mirrors not just once but a few times.

For anyone not to attribute some of this to their history this season and seasons past, well I'm sorry but though they are world class racing drivers they are still human. Massa is probably still angry at Lewis and the tabloids don't help cause it sells to have these two at each other, the WDC and WCC is over so what does Massa or Lewis care...drivers from all autosports have been known to wreck someone for past collisions that they didn't appreciate. Is it that too farfetched somewhat see that here or is F1 just too elitist for that to ever happen? I mean not to come off rude to you Seismica I just feel like alot of people think these types of things shouldn't happen in F1, but in reality it will happen, it's racing and you throw everything out there to win or at least get further up the chain, and if you don't then why are you out there. To play follow the car in front? Sorry that's not racing, that's not the stuff I grew up with watching Shumi, Montoya, Villenuve and Kimi.

 

[Seismica]

But surely Hamilton wasn't diving up the inside, he had always been alongside since activating his KERS. If anything he braked early and backed out of a dive. As I understand it the stewards saw that Hamilton was going to make the corner (under control, braking in time, no locking up, etc) albeit on a tighter inside line. It was Massa who was left with the decision on what was going to happen. Either he turned in for the apex and risked a likely collision or he chose a wider line to avoid any contact and could continue to fight. He chose the former and was penalised.

He didn't dive, your words to me (and others) seem to explain a kamakazi move by Hamilton, Lewis broke early because it looks like Massa saw him there prior to the turn and still choose to keep going over. I can see it in the vid just as you can, and even if Massa didn't see him he should still get a penelty for avoidable collision, just like Lewis should have with Kobiyashi and virtually doing the same thing that Massa did. I clearly see Lewis along side of Massa before the turn due to the slipstream, Massa goes right with Lewis taking the insideline to the left and thus as I said prior one brakes earlier due to the other driver "pretending" that the car to the inside isn't there. I say that because Massa looked in the mirrors not just once but a few times.

I didn't mean for it to sound like Lewis dived in on the inside (reading it back, it did imply that). Nevertheless, he didn't have the line and when he tried to back out it was too late. I feel neither should have got a penalty as it was a racing incident, but if anyone was at fault it was lewis as a) He was the overtaking drive b) He wasn't on the racing line and c) He should've used his judgement and backed out sooner, but then again hindsight is a wonderful thing. You can't go around punishing every little mistake a driver does, neither is the guilty party, it isn't clear cut like it was in Monaco. Mark Webber has some good words on this:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95863

 

[Ardius]

Webber also believes it was a racing incident, no penalty needed:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/15569488.stm

 

[tibiquera]

When they braked, Massa was half a car length in front, when they started turning Massa was 2/3 ahead. I think he should give space, but I don't think it makes sense to punish him. It was a kind of situation where nobody had preference going into the turn and both went for the same gap. Just a racing incident in my opinion. I have a feeling the penalty wouldn't be given if it were any other drivers.

 

[Azure Flare]

 

[Pezzarinho17]

When they braked, Massa was half a car length in front...

It was far less than this, Hamilton was as good as alongside Massa when he braked (of course in braking earlier he was much further back at instant of impact).

I would place more blame with Massa, but I don't think he deserved the penalty given how far into the grey area the collision was. There wasn't much else Hamilton could do though other than back out of the move earlier or not attempt it at all - both surely not expected from any racing driver...

I also believe that if Hamilton had attempted the same move on anyone else, or if Massa was defending from anyone else that there would have been no collision.... Feud needs an end or it will greatly affect both of their careers.

 

[tibiquera]

It was far less than this, Hamilton was as good as alongside Massa when he braked (of course in braking earlier he was much further back at instant of impact).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaVaOFDy3C4&feature=related

Look at this video at 17 seconds and you'll see that Hamilton was perhaps 2/5 behind when he braked. On the accident Massa's rear wheel hits Hamilton's front wheel, so that gives you an idea how far behind Hamilton was.

 

[Seismica]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaVaOFDy3C4&feature=related

Look at this video at 17 seconds and you'll see that Hamilton was perhaps 2/5 behind when he braked. On the accident Massa's rear wheel hits Hamilton's front wheel, so that gives you an idea how far behind Hamilton was.

If this was a slow corner with a long braking zone, that pass was inevitable.

The shorter the braking zone, the further forward you have to be in relation to the other car. He tried to back out just as Massa was turning in (Massa checked his mirror and saw Lewis brake, which gave him the all-clear in his mind). It was just very unfortunate timing, had Hamilton braked a fraction later Massa would have had to respond. If he had braked a fraction earlier, the collision would have been avoided altogether. A drive-through penalty would have been unfair for either of them.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I didn't mean for it to sound like Lewis dived in on the inside (reading it back, it did imply that). Nevertheless, he didn't have the line and when he tried to back out it was too late. I feel neither should have got a penalty as it was a racing incident, but if anyone was at fault it was lewis as a) He was the overtaking drive b) He wasn't on the racing line and c) He should've used his judgement and backed out sooner, but then again hindsight is a wonderful thing. You can't go around punishing every little mistake a driver does, neither is the guilty party, it isn't clear cut like it was in Monaco. Mark Webber has some good words on this:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95863

Just checking with you mate, cause that's how I read it but now that you've cleared it up, I see what you mean. Yes Hamilton should have either backed out sooner or stuck with it and just had both cars touch side to side. However, Massa still has some blame (from me) cause in the video you can see him looking in the mirror more than once and seeing Lewis there. I think Massa to some extent expected Lewis to get a penalty because of the fact that he was trying to overtake. Thus that is probably why he didn't give up the spot. The wreck reminds me a bit of Senna/Prost Ferrari and Mclaren...ewww.

EDIT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaVaOFDy3C4&feature=related

Look at this video at 17 seconds and you'll see that Hamilton was perhaps 2/5 behind when he braked. On the accident Massa's rear wheel hits Hamilton's front wheel, so that gives you an idea how far behind Hamilton was.

No it doesn't...all you've done is twisted the video to see what you want, and it clear that Lewis is along Massa with the front of his front right tire just slightly behind Massa's front left tire. The front wheel hit Massa's side pod, not rear tire, thus showing a halfway point or closer to it. The reason for this if you listen close is because Lewis backed out seeing that the gap was closing due to Massa not wanting Lewis to pass. The point of impact is not a true indicator of where Lewis was in respect to Felipe going into that turn. Lewis however, should have broke earlier seeing that Massa was not going to allow a pass in that area to begin with.

EDIT 2:

Here is a good article about Hamilton and his being called to the Stewards office over the years.
Here you'll see that this year really isn't different than years past...well beside that fact that 9 of the incidents are Hamiltons fault this year which is more than years past. (according to the stewards that is)

 

[That90sGuy]

Why can't Hamilton and Massa just get along?

 

[Seismica]

I'm just waiting for the inevitable punch-up between Hamilton and Rob Smedley.

I think Massa is a bit passive, but Smedley is from Middlesbrough, he's used to that sort of thing.

 

[Bigbazz]

Lewis's pass on Massa was the same situation as the 1989 Japanese GP where Senna tried to pass Prost up the inside.

Most people consider that one to be Ayrtons fault.

 

[tribolik]

Massa should have left him some space and not go for the apex like he did... Lewis had his car more than 2/3 into the side of Massas car at some point... Massa could still have a better corner exit if he didnt try to block Hamilton... and this is coming from someone (me) that doesnt like Hamilton one bit at least not since his performances this year...

I really enjoy reading how people think they know better than the stewards that have more tools (and experience) at their disposal to judge this incidents.

 

[Seismica]

Massa should have left him some space and not go for the apex like he did... Lewis had his car more than 2/3 into the side of Massas car at some point... Massa could still have a better corner exit if he didnt try to block Hamilton... and this is coming from someone (me) that doesnt like Hamilton one bit at least not since his performances this year...

I really enjoy reading how people think they know better than the stewards that have more tools (and experience) at their disposal to judge this incidents.

The Stewards have been known to make mistakes, from time to time. There is a great deal of opinion involved in judging an incident like this, so the decision can always be questioned. Having the same opinion as the Stewards doesn't necessarily make you right as many respected people associated with the sport that have no affiliation to Mclaren have questioned the decision. I do not believe Massa should have recieved a penalty for taking the racing line on a fast corner which is clearly not a usual overtaking point. The burden is on the attacking driver to get past cleanly. It was a racing incident.

Someone once said that Senna used to put other drivers in positions where they had the choice whether to collide or not. This is what Hamilton is doing, and it is not clean racing (In my opinion). If any incidents occur from it, the defending driver should never be penalised as it was the attacking driver that set their car up for the collision. The action that caused the incident should be punished, not the lack of a reaction that could have avoided the incident. I hate how the Stewards punished Massa for an 'avoidable collision', that term is rubbish as you shouldn't have to avoid a collision if it was coming from behind.

The only decision I agree with in all this is the decision not to punish Lewis, as he was alongside before the braking zone. But he was still the attacking driver, and was responsible for making the pass clean.

The stewards are making judgements based on the consequences of the incident rather than the causes of the incident. If you want to be consistent this is the completely wrong way to go about it as you end up punishing drivers who are not at fault just because they don't have a puncture/broken front wing.

 

[Centura]

The Stewards have been known to make mistakes, from time to time. There is a great deal of opinion involved in judging an incident like this, so the decision can always be questioned. Having the same opinion as the Stewards doesn't necessarily make you right as many respected people associated with the sport that have no affiliation to Mclaren have questioned the decision. I do not believe Massa should have recieved a penalty for taking the racing line on a fast corner which is clearly not a usual overtaking point. The burden is on the attacking driver to get past cleanly. It was a racing incident.

Someone once said that Senna used to put other drivers in positions where they had the choice whether to collide or not. This is what Hamilton is doing, and it is not clean racing (In my opinion). If any incidents occur from it, the defending driver should never be penalised as it was the attacking driver that set their car up for the collision. The action that caused the incident should be punished, not the lack of a reaction that could have avoided the incident. I hate how the Stewards punished Massa for an 'avoidable collision', that term is rubbish as you shouldn't have to avoid a collision if it was coming from behind.

Martin Brundle said that. @ 06:05

 

[niky]

Would have worked if Hamilton had put Massa in the position where he had to concede or crash. Unfortunately, math is on Hamilton's side, as Massa had about 80% of the rest of the track to use. Hamilton didn't.

 

[tribolik]

Would have worked if Hamilton had put Massa in the position where he had to concede or crash. Unfortunately, math is on Hamilton's side, as Massa had about 80% of the rest of the track to use. Hamilton didn't.

Exactly... he had lots of free space but went for the apex and straight into Lewis car...

Lewis backed off so that he could take the corner without going wide and crashing into Felipe... but Felipe left him no space at all...

 

[Seismica]

Exactly... he had lots of free space but went for the apex and straight into Lewis car...

Lewis backed off so that he could take the corner without going wide and crashing into Felipe... but Felipe left him no space at all...

But Lewis put his car there regardless, which means they both share the blame, which is why it was a racing incident and punishments should have been handed to neither driver or both. Punishments shouldn't be selective depending on the outcome of the collision.

 

[tibiquera]

I think the comparison with Senna is wrong. Back in those days the brakes weren't as effective, so drivers defending against Senna would have enough time to see him and make a decision between going for it or letting him through. None of the incidents involving Massa and Hamilton had the same situation.

No it doesn't...all you've done is twisted the video to see what you want, and it clear that Lewis is along Massa with the front of his front right tire just slightly behind Massa's front left tire. The front wheel hit Massa's side pod, not rear tire, thus showing a halfway point or closer to it. The reason for this if you listen close is because Lewis backed out seeing that the gap was closing due to Massa not wanting Lewis to pass. The point of impact is not a true indicator of where Lewis was in respect to Felipe going into that turn. Lewis however, should have broke earlier seeing that Massa was not going to allow a pass in that area to begin with.

Really? I guess we saw the same incident in two very different ways.

Regarding your last sentence, after watching the video a couple of times I had the impression that Lewis didn't commit to the corner nor backed out completely. I actually had the impression that Lewis did brake early, but then he didn't drop back enough. That's just an impression though. I'd love to hear the opinion of a real driver.

Would have worked if Hamilton had put Massa in the position where he had to concede or crash. Unfortunately, math is on Hamilton's side, as Massa had about 80% of the rest of the track to use. Hamilton didn't.

I wonder if Massa really could've given him room, because after that corner there was another corner imediately to the left. I'm thinking that if Massa were to give Lewis room, he would've ended up on the run-off area.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I think the comparison with Senna is wrong. Back in those days the brakes weren't as effective, so drivers defending against Senna would have enough time to see him and make a decision between going for it or letting him through. None of the incidents involving Massa and Hamilton had the same situation.



Really? I guess we saw the same incident in two very different ways.

Regarding your last sentence, after watching the video a couple of times I had the impression that Lewis didn't commit to the corner nor backed out completely. I actually had the impression that Lewis did brake early, but then he didn't drop back enough. That's just an impression though. I'd love to hear the opinion of a real driver.

That's fine Webber has written about the incident, seeing as he's a real racing driver there ya go. I think you say that, just due to the fact that there is an actual disagreement with your post. I watched the two differnet angled videos, the one that us fans would really close this argument with is Felipe Massa's in car view (doubt people would stop though). How is this situation not like that of what was said by McLaren on this thread "Suzuka 1989", go watch that. Cause the debate is the same, did Prost see Senna and turn in to him or did Senna try to force the situation on a gap that was never going to be there. Same here; did hamilton press the situation or did Massa see Lewis and still turn in?

I don't see why Massa wouldn't the WCC & WDC is over and next year is being prepared back at the teams' homes. There is only two more races, why not get back at Hamilton? Is it so hard to believe that maybe this time it wasn't Lewis's fault? Also how do your situational perceptions conclude that just because Lewis hit's Felipe close to the rear tire, that that is how close he was the entire time? If Lewis broke early like you say he did to you...then isn't is possible that is the reason why Massa's car was hit where it was, and not due to your opinion that Lewis was only a third of a way to the side. To be honest your math just doesn't add up to what your saying.

I wonder if Massa really could've given him room, because after that corner there was another corner imediately to the left. I'm thinking that if Massa were to give Lewis room, he would've ended up on the run-off area.

Well for you to say that, the pass would of had to stick and we could see what would happen after. Since it didn't and an incident like that has yet to happen again at India, you'd have to find a similar set of corners and a similar situation to compare that to where the defending driver is passed and due to that pass forced into a run-off.

 

[tibiquera]

Well, I disagree. In 89, Senna was fully committed to the corner, Prost saw him and turned (just like Brundle did in the Top Gear video). This time Hamilton backed off a bit. I don't know what's the drivers usual protocol, but I'd imagine that if two drivers are side by side and one backs off, that could be a signal to the other driver that he has preference. I haven't heard from Massa, but I'd imagine he had enough reasons to believe Hamilton had given up at that moment.

And there is a big difference as to where they were in relation to each other. If they were side by side at braking point and Hamilton was half a car length at the collision as you said, then Massa's responsibility to give him room is much greated than if he was 2/5 behind at braking and 2/3 behind at collision as I saw it. Since this is a perceptional thing, there's no point arguing who's right.

Also, don't thing I'm a Hamilton's hater. I'm just playing devil's advocate at the moment. My opinion is that no one was at fault, although Massa should've given him more room. Just keep in mind it was a fast corner with low grip on the inside, so it was a tough situation for the drivers.

By the way, I haven't seen the video inside Massa's car. If you could link that it would be great.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Well, I disagree. In 89, Senna was fully committed to the corner, Prost saw him and turned (just like Brundle did in the Top Gear video). This time Hamilton backed off a bit. I don't know what's the drivers usual protocol, but I'd imagine that if two drivers are side by side and one backs off, that could be a signal to the other driver that he has preference. I haven't heard from Massa, but I'd imagine he had enough reasons to believe Hamilton had given up at that moment.

You're not getting it it seems to me...Hamilton gave up and said he gave up due to the closing gap and seeing that Massa wasn't going to give space. Massa forced the issue (hence the drive through) and didn't give room and came down anyways knowing that Hamilton was there (this is due to Massa looking in mirrors a few times before said incident). He didn't know that Hamilton was going to back out (that's how you've made it sound so correct me if I'm wrong). Also the Senna thing, Massa in this case like I said was Prost and turned into Hamilton hence the penalty on Massa.

And there is a big difference as to where they were in relation to each other. If they were side by side at braking point and Hamilton was half a car length at the collision as you said, then Massa's responsibility to give him room is much greated than if he was 2/5 behind at braking and 2/3 behind at collision as I saw it. Since this is a perceptional thing, there's no point arguing who's right.

I'll give you that to an extent and leave it there, we both have different perceptions and that is not something we can overcome by arguing.

Also, don't thing I'm a Hamilton's hater. I'm just playing devil's advocate at the moment. My opinion is that no one was at fault, although Massa should've given him more room. Just keep in mind it was a fast corner with low grip on the inside, so it was a tough situation for the drivers.

I'm not saying you are a Hamilton hater, and I'd like you to point it out where I've said that. I could chalk it up as a racing incident, but there are a few incidents this year that I would do the same but no one gave Hamilton the benefit of the doubt. It was a tough situation but I think that Hamilton could have made it stick if given the room, we've seen him do more tricky passes with success.

By the way, I haven't seen the video inside Massa's car. If you could link that it would be great.

I don't have it either and have been looking for it my self, I was just saying that if we had that video maybe everyone would drop the issue.