Formula One 2011 Airtel Grand Prix of India

[Hun200kmh]

I think the obituary on Bruno Senna's a litle premature. But I agree he needs to do more. I was following his pace in the iphone app while at the same time watching the race (the live timing is a very good companion to TV broadcasts, tells you a lot more than what you can see).

And his pace was dreadful at the begining of the race, and very good all the way to very end of the second stint (he was faster than Petrov).

So, I don't think he has a "speed" problem, I think he has a "confidence" problem. Or just maybe he needs time to "warm up", don't know. It'll be a pity if he gets out of a job because, if you take out the Senna name and call this guy Fritz da Silva, and consider all he has done so far ... he has done good.

Problem is ... he needs to do excellent. Good is not enough.

 

[homeforsummer]

Otherwise, it was a decent race, and the new circuit is a winner - although the venue itself is not particularly inspiring, but the track certainly seemed to impress pretty much everyone.

It's a pity it wasn't as good for spectators as it was for drivers, though. Schumacher said after the race it was great for overtaking, but I suspect that was because he was one of the few who did a lot of it!

Successful GP though, it's just a pity that Tilke is so good at designing tracks so free of personality. Turkey is fairly successful and Malaysia has always been okay, but the rest are pretty tedious. It's just as well they have KERS and DRS this year as it's lessened the impact of some of the previously processional races.

As for Hamilton and Massa, they're getting embarrassing for McLaren and Ferrari. Saw someone on twitter say it must be like Button and Alonso are the parents of two kids always fighting at school, since after the race they always get told their team-mates have taken each other off the circuit again

If he was any good at all he would have delivered the goods in the Renault and dominated his teammate just as Kubica did. He hasn't therefore he isn't good enough.

Hell he was consistently finishing behind Chandhok (7-2) in their time together at HRT and Klein was much faster than him as well

He has a name and Brazilian bank money and that is it.

I disagree. He's shown flashes of talent, enough to convince me that he just needs a bit more seat time and probably a bit more job security so he can really put his mind to it. I believe his seat is still in the balance for next year and that's not conducive to a happy driver in any situation.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Not taking away what I said about "good vs Excellent", I think also we shouldn't forget Bruno's car lost KERS early on yesterday. Considering the GP's duration, to finish with a crippled car only 11 seconds after your team mate is embarrasing to ... your team mate, not to yourself.

 

[Seismica]

A couple of things spring to mind... not least Alonso's arrival at Ferrari.

Oh dear...

I was very surprised to see the decision go Hamilton's way. Massa contradicted himself after the incident though, first saying that he didn't see Hamilton after the braking point, and then saying that he saw him...

It doesn't matter how Hamilton attempts to pass people, be it around the outside or a dive up the inside, he is made to be the guilty party everytime something happens. Webber not getting a penalty at Singapore last year confused me at the time, but looking back now it was far worse than most of Hamilton's attempts this year.

Has there been anything said about Hamilton's lack of race pace? Qualified second and then struggled to keep up with the Ferrari's before requiring the extra stop for the wing.... Wondering if the wing blockage from Korea struck again.

Massa did look in the mirror. But looking at Hamilton's onboard he backed off in the braking zone (Which to me said he braked earlier) and that is what Massa is referring to, one moment he was alongside and then he was behind.

At first I thought it was 100% Hamilton's fault, but to be honest he has made moves like this in the past (Vettel at China... Button at China into turn 1), but that relies on the other driver to essentially wave you on through politely. Massa did not intend on letting Lewis past, he was defending but moved back over onto the racing line into the braking zone. Lewis took the gap and the door simply closed. After further analysis I decided it was just a racing incident and the Stewards' decision was a result of Hamilton having to pit to replace a wing whereas Massa did not. It was simply evening out the punishments/consequences of the incidents that the two drivers got.

I do not believe this was Massa's fault, you just can not expect a driver to barge into the apex on a high speed corner like that when his front wheels are only in line with your rear wheels. (Well, maybe you could rely on Lewis to do that). I think Hamilton is trying to be too much like Senna, and Massa is his Prost (Seen as he's the only driver he can realistically keep up with these days).

 

[homeforsummer]

Comes down to a lack of respect, from either of them at the end of the day.

How many times have we seen Vettel/Alonso/Webber/Button/anyone else in basically the same situation and not hitting each other? Webber/Alonso at Spa could have resulted in a massive accident if they'd not respected each others' space. If that had been Hamilton and Massa, you can almost guarantee it would have been a massive accident.

However, I am partly beginning to believe speculation that Massa turned across Hamilton expecting a) to get away with it a bit better and b) that he could bank on Hamilton getting the penalty, and not him.

 

[dudedo]

On the Massa/Hamilton discussion, I do agree that they are both being like little kids, although we have recently seen Lewis try and stop that. For instance, he never places blame on anyone but himself, and after the race he seemed thoroughly depressed. Massa's move was so childish and immature though.

And back to the Petrov/Senna/Heidfeld discussion, I don't see why Renault dropped him when he had more points than Petrov, and why its taken Petrov 6 races to get 2 more points than Heidfeld has. I also don't see why Senna, after 6 races, has only gotten 2 points, while Heidfeld, after 6 races has 29 points.

The only reason for this is that the team itself is/was slowing down, and they had no reason to drop Heidfeld, because they were the ones slowing down, not him.

Any thoughts?

 

[F1 fan]

we have seen Lewis try and stop that. For instance, he never places blame on anyone but himself, and after the race he seemed thoroughly depressed.

Are you kidding? Have you just started watching F1 recently, or did you miss the whole Monaco debacle? The point is that Hamilton has historically placed blame on everyone else. Even if it was blatantly his fault. And I guess you missed what he said to Massa after Singapore too?

I feel for Massa in all of this. It reminds me of me and my sister when we were teenagers. She knew how to manipulate me, as i have a bad temper. She would do this, until I got so angry, I'd start to shout at her. Then everyone else suddenly turns round, oblivious to the things my sister said and did and blame me.

I don't see this Hamilton/Massa spat ending well.

 

[niky]

I was delighted to see Massa getting a penalty yesterday....

At least the stewards are finally giving credit where credit's due... though no doubt popular opinion will still pin this on Hamilton no matter who was really at fault.

A couple of things spring to mind... not least Alonso's arrival at Ferrari.

If only I could give infractions to super-mods... that's a new low for you!

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Because they felt he needed to be beating Petrov every race, the same way Kubica would be if he didn't take an armco through the hand. I hope to god Bobby makes it back.

That's not why...at least not mainly. It is known that Renault are running out of money and Senna had alot of sponsors to bring to the table. So to them the best choice was to drop Heidfeld who was only there for the season and put in an actual reserver driver with money. It's another money wins the seat type case for F1. I think Senna is good just the car isn't there and it was seen for all three drivers this season so Eric Boullier should be looking at the direction of the car next year and not his drivers.

EDIT: (Not toward Alex's quote)
As far as Massa and Hamilton go. Hamilton is easily up for the blame in a few of the earlier spats with Massa, but it seems Massa has had a chip out for Hamilton for a while now. You cant watch Webber and Hamilton battle for a whole race tire to tire without killing each others cars and then go and say that he is just too agressive on Massa. I don't believe it, Massa is a has been and the guy who beat him is the one that he ends up in a collision with week in and week out.

 

[YellowG1]

I can't help but think that Massa will either be at a backmarker team or out of F1 entirely in a couple years' time if he can't turn things around. Even if he is a clear and distant number 2 to Alonso, Ferrari wants and needs someone who can put the car on the podium at least sometimes. Ferrari, like all manufacturers, cares about the Constructor's title too much to have a mediocre (at best) number 2 driver. I think the last top team driver to go a whole year without a podium was Kovalainen for McLaren in 09 and you see where he ended up...

 

[Seismica]

I think in recent races Massa has been hanging on to the back of Alonso quite well. He's had terrible luck this year, but the pace is just about there. Qualifying behind Alonso isn't something you should be ashamed of.

Ferrari need to supply the pacesetting car first. If he doesn't deliver then, he deserves to lose his seat. Lets not forget he had a win taken away from him last year.

 

[nismo3]

I feel bad for Ferrari, they deserve someone much better than Massa.

 

[Seismica]

I feel bad for Ferrari, they deserve someone much better than Massa.

They have Alonso and a radio though

 

[RodrigoDLL]

I think the obituary on Bruno Senna's a litle premature. But I agree he needs to do more. I was following his pace in the iphone app while at the same time watching the race (the live timing is a very good companion to TV broadcasts, tells you a lot more than what you can see).

And his pace was dreadful at the begining of the race, and very good all the way to very end of the second stint (he was faster than Petrov).

So, I don't think he has a "speed" problem, I think he has a "confidence" problem. Or just maybe he needs time to "warm up", don't know. It'll be a pity if he gets out of a job because, if you take out the Senna name and call this guy Fritz da Silva, and consider all he has done so far ... he has done good.

Problem is ... he needs to do excellent. Good is not enough.

Senna had KERS problems in India, racing the whole distance without it. I think with that in mind he didnt suck at all.

The car is just not as good as it was at the start of the season.

On the MASSA x HAMILTON clash, I read today Johnny Herbert defending the stewards decision on the basis that Massa could have avoided contact. I think that is basically assuming that you have to let a driver pass you even if you have in front and on the racing line. Hamilton hit Massa's left rear wheel with his right front wheel, how in the world can Massa be the one to blame? Are drivers suposed to roll out the red carpet for other to pass them just cause they saw them on the mirror? We have DRS, KERS and now this kind of stewards decision?

This was the only interesting moment of a very dull grand prix, and the stewards decision just mean they wanted to see even more lack of action.

 

[zedextreme8177]

A couple of things spring to mind...

I think I might have got this, but I still haven't

 

[mattythedog]

I think I might have got this, but I still haven't

Spring to mind. Massa. Spring. Helmet. Near death. Got it yet?

 

[Alex.]

So I was right, it was indeed a Grand Chelem for Vettel.

 

[zedextreme8177]

Spring to mind. Massa. Spring. Helmet. Near death. Got it yet?

I see what he did there

 

[niky]

On the MASSA x HAMILTON clash, I read today Johnny Herbert defending the stewards decision on the basis that Massa could have avoided contact. I think that is basically assuming that you have to let a driver pass you even if you have in front and on the racing line. Hamilton hit Massa's left rear wheel with his right front wheel, how in the world can Massa be the one to blame? Are drivers suposed to roll out the red carpet for other to pass them just cause they saw them on the mirror? We have DRS, KERS and now this kind of stewards decision?

If the driver is at least halfway up beside you in the corner, you have to leave them at least one car's width of space. Look at Hamilton versus Button, Alonso versus Vettel, or any of a million other moves over the past dozen races. You can defend but you still have to leave room.

I agree that the penalties this year have been uneven, but I believe that Hamilton deserved a penalty for the similar move he pulled on Kobayashi (Pulled back into the racing line while Kobayashi was beside him)... though in this case, Massa's stunt was completely harebrained, as he was pushing Hamilton up in to the kerbs.

While it's true the attacking driver has to make the move stick... the defending driver MUST leave space if there's a car beside him.

 

[Submerged]

Additionally, Hamilton hit Massa's sidepod, not the rear wheel. He was basically almost (but not quite) side by side on the entry of the corner and Massa should have left him a small door open to allow side by side racing. Massa would still have got the advantage anyway if he had done that, as he would have been travelling faster than Hamilton to make the corner and has a smaller angle of entry to the corner.

Massa is basically in a group of really talented drivers in the world, he should be able to use his talent to pull off good defensive moves without crashing, even against your least liked rival.

 

[Seismica]

Additionally, Hamilton hit Massa's sidepod, not the rear wheel. He was basically almost (but not quite) side by side on the entry of the corner and Massa should have left him a small door open to allow side by side racing. Massa would still have got the advantage anyway if he had done that, as he would have been travelling faster than Hamilton to make the corner and has a smaller angle of entry to the corner.

Sorry but taking the outside line/leaving room on the apex here is not an option if you want to stay ahead. Ignoring the fact it's dirty offline, the nature of the corner means a slightly wide line will lower your cornering speed by a great deal. It's kind of similar to the left sweeper and chicane in sector 1 of Autumn Ring Reverse in GT5 (Which I ran in the WRS a few weeks ago). If you go wide just a little you're onto the grass for the chicane.

Hamilton put Massa in a really difficult position; Surrender the place or let him hit your car. In my opinion, putting another driver into a position like that qualifies as dirty driving. If you do an overtake right the other driver shouldn't have to change his line at all (Or if he does, it should only be when he's staring at the back of your car on a corner exit).

 

[Alex.]

I feel bad for Ferrari, they deserve someone much better than Massa.

Seriously?

Ferrari are the least pitiable sports team of all time. Massa's had a bad season but whenever he does well they make him let Alonso past anyway, if Alonso was so brilliant he'd do the overtaking himself.

 

[Ardius]

This type of corner only ever leads to racing incidents or drivers completely yielding their positions. Its unreasonable to apply the same racing rules to every corner because the decisions involved change.
As soon as both drivers are required to yield or crash, its always going to become a game of chicken.

Really, Hamilton shouldn't have even been trying to pass here because he knows that to get past, he needs Massa to completely back off as there is no way Massa would be able to make the corner in an outside line without both of them slowing to a snails pace. The only time a pass was going to work here was if he was ahead of Massa (so that it was clear to Massa he had to back off and that Hamilton could brake later and effectively take the racing line), but at all times he was only ever slightly alongside/behind him. However, he was perfectly entitled to have a go.

Equally, Massa shouldn't have turned in so blindly when a car is still there. But he was entitled to take the line he did as Hamilton had not won the corner and he too was never going to back down easily.

This is the definition of a "racing incident". Both parties were equally to blame but in the end the result was inevitable. Both outlooks on what is right or wrong are valid as they are simply different approaches to racing. For me, a corner like this I would never try to overtake into, I would use the momentum to have a sniff and wake the other guy up but I would never commit to an overtake. Not unless I was clearly ahead or far alongside that the other guy has no choice but to back off. But some people prefer trying to "go for a gap" wherever that might be.

I don't agree with Massa's penalty this should have been written off as a racing incident. Smells to me like the stewards were making more of an effort to change their image of bullying Hamilton here.

 

[Pezzarinho17]

Hamilton put Massa in a really difficult position; Surrender the place or let him hit your car. In my opinion, putting another driver into a position like that qualifies as dirty driving. If you do an overtake right the other driver shouldn't have to change his line at all (Or if he does, it should only be when he's staring at the back of your car on a corner exit).

You're idea works when overtaking car is far faster. Close decent racing is however all about forcing your opponents hand and compromising their line for your own. As you say, Massa had 2 choices and went for the latter. Hence, penalty. If everyone used the statement above to defend on track actions there would be mass carnage as cars crash on purpose, "What was I meant to do, lose a position?".

I don't want to fully defend Hamilton, it was always going to be a difficult move but at this level of racing you should expect some maturity to realise a position is lost and you have been checkmated.

 

[Diabolik_za]

You're idea works when overtaking car is far faster. Close decent racing is however all about forcing your opponents hand and compromising their line for your own. As you say, Massa had 2 choices and went for the latter. Hence, penalty. If everyone used the statement above to defend on track actions there would be mass carnage as cars crash on purpose, "What was I meant to do, lose a position?".

I don't want to fully defend Hamilton, it was always going to be a difficult move but at this level of racing you should expect some maturity to realise a position is lost and you have been checkmated.

If all you need to do is compromise the lead car's line, then you would get everyone late breaking on the inside of corners to push the lead car of the racing line. If they hold their ground, it would be their fault for a collision and that doesn't make any sense.

 

[Pezzarinho17]

If all you need to do is compromise the lead car's line, then you would get everyone late breaking on the inside of corners to push the lead car of the racing line. If they hold their ground, it would be their fault for a collision and that doesn't make any sense.

Like a block pass? If the car ahead was sensible, he'd see it coming a mile off, brake normally, let said car sail past the corner and turn in later.... Person passing has to hope (or ensure) he has been seen beforehand or defending driver will just turn in not expecting anyone to come from that far back.

It all comes back to etiquette and respect for one another on the track, but also in making sure you are 5 steps ahead in reading (and writing) situations. When I'm racing its the most effective method... You plan to pass at turn 9, how you position your car at turns 7 and 8 is how the move starts. Position slightly off line, force car in front to defend air (what I meant by compromising line) and then pass as planned having placed both cars as YOU wish.

 

[F1 fan]

Hamilton put Massa in a really difficult position; Surrender the place or let him hit your car.

He's been doing that for years. Usually followed with a radio message "*insert name* hit me".

 

[Diabolik_za]

Like a block pass? If the car ahead was sensible, he'd see it coming a mile off, brake normally, let said car sail past the corner and turn in later.... Person passing has to hope (or ensure) he has been seen beforehand or defending driver will just turn in not expecting anyone to come from that far back.

It all comes back to etiquette and respect for one another on the track, but also in making sure you are 5 steps ahead in reading (and writing) situations. When I'm racing its the most effective method... You plan to pass at turn 9, how you position your car at turns 7 and 8 is how the move starts. Position slightly off line, force car in front to defend air (what I meant by compromising line) and then pass as planned having placed both cars as YOU wish.

Late braking doesn't imply overshooting the corner. If the overtaking car's line compromises the lead car's line and will cause an accident if no one backs off, with the overtaking car "behind" the lead car at the point of collision, surely its the overtaking car's fault? Granted what constitutes "behind" is subjective, but in this case, Hamilton's front tyres were only marginally ahead of Massa's rear tyres, if I recall correctly.

 

[Pezzarinho17]

Late braking doesn't imply overshooting the corner. If the overtaking car's line compromises the lead car's line and will cause an accident if no one backs off, with the overtaking car "behind" the lead car at the point of collision, surely its the overtaking car's fault? Granted what constitutes "behind" is subjective, but in this case, Hamilton's front tyres were only marginally ahead of Massa's rear tyres, if I recall correctly.

Indeed, not always, but in your suggestion the overtaking car was behind and not alongside. Unless the defending driver braked some 50 metres too early then the attacking driver would miss the corner 99% of the time as I read it.

I read an article today about Coulthard defending Massa with a similar statement about the driver behind usually being the one at fault. In any overtaking move though, someone has to back off as there is only 1 racing line through any corner. Hamilton hit Massa around the sidepod area, so yes in that instantaneous second he was behind if you look at it like that.

As has been said though, every corner should be looked at differently and there are 2 things that lead to Hamilton being behind at the point of collision. Firstly he said how he had backed out of the move (or attempted to) and secondly he was facing a tighter line through the corner so needed to brake earlier anyway. At the instantaneous second he braked therefore he would have been alongside enough to not be counted as behind. I think this is part of the grey area though.... Which instance do you take at fault?


Side note, stewards / referees for any sport never get long enough to think decisions through. They could be given months and still be reviewed for getting it wrong! I used to referee football and hated just about every second of it. Motorsport stewards get minutes rather than seconds and yet the decision is still out to debate! Plus they have all the angles, footage and data available... They get it so easy!

 

[kimi123]

Seriously?

Ferrari are the least pitiable sports team of all time. Massa's had a bad season but whenever he does well they make him let Alonso past anyway, if Alonso was so brilliant he'd do the overtaking himself.

Alonso is far superior to Massa. Only few times Massa out qualified Alonso and blocks him and therefore it compromises Alonso race pace as well. For example in Korea he was for the first half behind him and then he got clear air was able to close in on Webber