Formula One Eni Magyar Nagydij 2011

F1 fan
It's posts like this that surprise me that you are a moderator. I was simply stating the facts.
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I'm allowed to contribute to a public forum as much as the next guy, and I didn't come close to any AUP breakage. Deal with it.

So what then of DC's observation about Sauber coming every weekend with a strategy of 'run em long and steady' instead of trying to use the pace of the car to try and get and 8th/9th/10th finish?

It must be frustrating for KK; on a few occasions he has ended up in a useful spot (admittedly due to their strategy of less stops) only to have a gaggle of cars on fresh cut him up.
 
Mike Rotch
I'm allowed to contribute to a public forum as much as the next guy, and I didn't come close to any AUP breakage. Deal with it.
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I'm aware of that, but I was simply stating the facts. Maybe if our situation was reversed, and you were stating facts and I said "nobody cares" the forum reaction would have been different. That's why I think this kind of attitude is surprising to see from a moderator. I wasn't speculating, I wasn't dreaming, I was just telling it as it happened.

Mike Rotch
So what then of DC's observation about Sauber coming every weekend with a strategy of 'run em long and steady' instead of trying to use the pace of the car to try and get and 8th/9th/10th finish?

It must be frustrating for KK; on a few occasions he has ended up in a useful spot (admittedly due to their strategy of less stops) only to have a gaggle of cars on fresh cut him up.
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I think their out and out race pace is lacking, so they just go for the best strategy for them... Having said that, I can't think of them even try anything different. Would be interesting if someone else tried the same strategy. Or maybe Sauber have just stumbled upon the ideal strategy, but few have picked up on it.
 
Ardius
Its funny that people talk about races like this like its a bad race for Vettel when he "only" finished 2nd. Kind of reminds of Schumacher back in his day...and now comparing to now where people talk about finishing 7th as a "good race". Its all relative obviously but I think people are making too much out of really minor mistakes on Vettel's part.
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Still goes to show that consistency is the key. I mean, winning is pretty good too and he's done plenty of that, but the better you can make your bad days, the more likely you'll stay ahead of the pack.

You mention Schumacher but anyone remember Hill in 1996? Very similar to Vettel's season really - in the races he finished, he only finished outside the top 2 positions twice. Top 2 in 10 of the 16 races.

That said, I'm a big Hill fan but I don't remember that season being anywhere near as exciting as this one - there's nothing quite like having five or six drivers capable of winning.

F1 fan
Perhaps they have more trust in their drivers now, but you have to remember that both drivers are trying to overcome a massive points deficit and will likely ignore any team orders like Webber did. Remember this is the same team, albeit, under another man's leadership, that made David Coulthard let Mika Hakkinen through on more than one occasion. Sometimes even at the start of the season.

Sometimes, a lot can be gained from team orders. Had Mclaren employed team orders on Lewis at Indianapolis in 2007, Alonso would be a three time world champion and Kimi would be a "nearly man".
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I do think management has a lot to do with it though. McLaren has changed quite a lot since Ron handed over the reins to Whitmarsh, but they've not really become less competitive either. The situation we have with Button and Hamilton is definitely far more even than any previous pairing since Prost and Senna - and even then Prost and Senna weren't as closely matched. Senna thrashed Prost back in 88. I've not seen that kind of dominance from Hamilton.

But then, it makes for great racing when they're so evenly matched.

I think Red Bull/Vettel/Webber have made big progress rather than McLaren/Ferrari losing speed. Maybe they're not keen to stifle that progress by having two drivers battling evenly for the title, but then Vettel is clearly quicker more often than Mark, so I still don't see the harm in them battling occasionally and RBR doesn't seem to want them to.
 
Moot
The pit lane can be closed, they have a red light at the pit exit. No cars are allowed past it.
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Well then things get very complicated - do you hold all the cars in the pitlane till Heidfeld's car is recovered? What if this puts all those cars a lap down or more?

CarolinaBlue704
No F1 for a month. What am I going to do!
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Watch the BTCC from Snetterton this weekend? :D
 
Ardius
Well then things get very complicated - do you hold all the cars in the pitlane till Heidfeld's car is recovered? What if this puts all those cars a lap down or more?
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The car's would also mostly likely overheat sitting there at the end of the pitlane waiting for the marshalls to trundle back behind the retaining wall.
 
It was a great race yesterday, the conditions looked exceptionally tricky at the start but every driver proved their worth by limiting individual mistakes to 1 at the most!

I agreed with the penalty to Hamilton, whether or not he saw Di Resta specifically as he knows where the racing line is and that he is sharing the track with 23 other drivers. Yes his car was on the racing line after the spin and he did well to recover it as quickly as he did, but in doing so the way he did he placed half of his car back on the line.

Strategically his race had been compromised at this point and from such a dominant position. By putting option tyres on his car he was forced to either extend a gap for a pitstop over Button, or make the tyres last twice as long as expected. Being so close to Button following the spin and when the sudden burst of rain came, his only choice was to gamble for new intermediate tyres. Not sure what he would have done otherwise, but I think he was destined for fourth from the spin onwards.

Button was outstanding again, getting into second and maintaining the gap as best he could. When strategy played effect later on he knew exactly what tyres to be on. Called the move to the dry tyres perfectly as well once again. A special occassion to win on his 200th GP weekend!

The second time we have seen the Renault on fire right by the driver, I think it is time for the FIA to step with this one. Next time Nick / Vitaly might not be so lucky, and the marshall getting hit by fragments is a very scary thought too. They have the rearward facing exhausts designed and ready too so only loss will be in marginal performance.

A note about the Ferrari pairing too, impressed with Massa's qualifying performance and then in maintaining it during the race as Alonso made mistakes. Massa's was far more costly, but he coped with the damage well, setting fastest lap of the race. Felipe doesn't deserve to be at Ferrari as Alonso's rear gunner and would be best seeking a drive elsewhere.

Ardius
Well then things get very complicated - do you hold all the cars in the pitlane till Heidfeld's car is recovered? What if this puts all those cars a lap down or more?
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FIA could send a message to all teams "Pitlane will be closed until further notice at 14.20". Allows teams in the pitlane to get cars out or to tell drivers not to pit. Would have been an issue before if people were running out of fuel, but biggest danger would have been in a driver hitting the tyre's cliff.
 
Moot
Vettel almost killed a few marshals and himself. That recovery of Heidfeld car should have been under safety car.
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Greycap
Correction, a few marshalls almost got themselves and Vettel killed. The entire "hey, let's tow the car backwards to the pits along the pit road!" operation was the most idiotic thing I've seen in F1 for a long time.
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Yeah, I thought it was dumb, too...rather dangerous by the marshals. Vettel could not see what was coming up in the confines of the the pits and exit.

To be fair:

A) The marshals were probably unaware that the pit lane had a large puddle of water at the end of it that was shaded from the little bit of sun that was ever available during the race. Every car seemed to get squirrelly at that spot, especially when shod with Super Softs.

B) Towing the stricken Renault down the course, towards the break in the Armco near the apex of the Turn 1 hairpin, might have been even more dangerous. Cars would be going by at even higher rates of speed, where there is lots of overtaking, and due to potential lack of grip from a wet, downhill braking area.

C) No room for a large boom crane near the infield of hairpin, as there is a tunnel underneath that area.

So probably a safety car would have been a good idea for a lap or two...I usually am not a big supporter of the safety car, but this would have been an entirely valid reason to use it.

And congrats to Button, who really made the most of every situation and for shining through at his 200th race! He really seems to do well in these types of "changing conditions" races.
 
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lukecfc
Well it was lost on me. Please do elaborate.
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Moot point: An issue regarded as potentially debatable, but no longer practically applicable. Although the idea may still be worth debating and exploring academically, and such discussion may be useful for addressing similar issues in the future, the idea has been rendered irrelevant for the present issue.

The marshals could have been injured by Vettel, or anyone else who came out of the pits, but they weren't. The irony is that the users name is Moot.
 
There is never a need for safety cars. This issue could easily have been dealt with by properly respected yellow flags as happens at the Nordschleife during races. That means slow down a lot in the yellow flag area. A mechanism which should be extended to all race tracks.

The problem I've got with the white line exiting the pitlane is that cars on the track are allowed to cross it from the other direction. That's dangerous.
 
Congratulations to Button. I thought he'd win once Lewis went on to the super soft tyres. Lewis seemed to have gone on to the lasting the tyres strategy rather than hot lapping as he was getting caught by Button on the slower tyre quite quickly. At that moment I thought it could not get any worse but it did. Surprised that Lewis spun, it is the first time I've seen him spin in a race for a long time. Then it started raining and I wanted Lewis to stay out by being behind but he managed to pass Button again and that destroyed his chance of a podium. His recovery from his spin I thought was quite impressive. He managed to turn the car around on the spot which would give drivers on the left and right space to drive on the track. That still ruined any chance of victory due to penalty and losing the gap he had to Jenson at the time. When he was chasing Webber, I remembered Singapore when Lewis tried to take advantage of traffic and hoped it ended well this time and it did.

I knew Lewis would do a good interview as he was the one that did the big mistake that cost his chance of the victory. You will be more gutted about what you did, hence why Lewis thought he let the team down at the time of the interview.

Also what is with David Coulthard bigging up Jenson earlier on the GP. Lewis was outpacing Button a lot earlier on his stints. Jenson started catching some of the time he lost later on. The particular part Coulthard commentated on was when he said Jenson was 6 tenths faster in the 1st sector compared to Lewis. He did not say at the end of the laps Lewis was about a whole tenth quicker but that wouldn't fit with Jenson Button being a master in these conditions in terms of pace. I think the two laps before Lewis was pulling out a second a lap too. That made it sound even more strange then as the first time Jenson beat one of Lewis sector times, he becomes a master :sly:.

Alonso did well to get a podium. He went off quite often but recovered the situation in the end. Vettel also with some bit of luck with Webber going on the inters, and team forcing him to stay out kept 2nd place and makes the championship more out of reach. He needs to go on a DNF run like the start of his 2008 season for others to have a chance. Massa showing again that a broken Ferrari is a quicker one.
 
Tired Tyres
The problem I've got with the white line exiting the pitlane is that cars on the track are allowed to cross it from the other direction. That's dangerous.
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It's a pity that Hungary's layout doesn't allow for a pit lane exit that loops around inside the first corner and emerges on the inside of the exit of turn 1, which would be significantly safer.

saidur_ali
The particular part Coulthard commentated on was when he said Jenson was 6 tenths faster in the 1st sector compared to Lewis. He did not say at the end of the laps Lewis was about a whole tenth quicker but that wouldn't fit with Jenson Button being a master in these conditions in terms of pace.
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Erm... you realise that if Button is six 10ths quicker in one sector and Lewis is a tenth quicker in another, that still makes Jenson faster by half a second, right?...

I would have said they were pretty even on pace, as illustrated by them passing each other several times. In that sort of scenario it's the guy who doesn't make mistakes that wins.
 
homeforsummer
Erm... you realise that if Button is six 10ths quicker in one sector and Lewis is a tenth quicker in another, that still makes Jenson faster by half a second, right?...

I would have said they were pretty even on pace, as illustrated by them passing each other several times. In that sort of scenario it's the guy who doesn't make mistakes that wins.
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Lewis was quicker by a second or something the last lap and I think also the lap before. The lap we are talking about Jenson was 6 tenths quicker in the first sector but Lewis made 7 tenths in the other two sectors making at the end of the lap 1 tenth quicker like I said. He then matched or beat Jenson's 1st sector the next lap if I recall correctly. I had live timing so it was funny to hear David praise Jenson for being faster when Lewis was pulling a second a lap on him the two laps before and managed to beat him in the lap we are also talking about. Coulthard was using it as a sign that Jenson was faster than Lewis in these conditions at that time even though Lewis beat him in the last 3 laps in total by over 2 seconds. This is off memory so accuracy is probably +- 1 seconds.
 
pezzarinho17
A note about the Ferrari pairing too, impressed with Massa's qualifying performance and then in maintaining it during the race as Alonso made mistakes. Massa's was far more costly, but he coped with the damage well, setting fastest lap of the race. Felipe doesn't deserve to be at Ferrari as Alonso's rear gunner and would be best seeking a drive elsewhere.
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I think with Massa, it's a matter of pride. He seems very proud of driving for Ferrari. Let's not forget that his grandfather was an Italian who emigrated to Brazil.

saidur_ali
Also what is with David Coulthard bigging up Jenson earlier on the GP. Lewis was outpacing Button a lot earlier on his stints. Jenson started catching some of the time he lost later on. The particular part Coulthard commentated on was when he said Jenson was 6 tenths faster in the 1st sector compared to Lewis. He did not say at the end of the laps Lewis was about a whole tenth quicker but that wouldn't fit with Jenson Button being a master in these conditions in terms of pace. I think the two laps before Lewis was pulling out a second a lap too. That made it sound even more strange then as the first time Jenson beat one of Lewis sector times, he becomes a master :sly:.
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He is commentating on a live race. Sometimes, it can be easy to lose track of who set what time in what sector etc. He was probably just looking for something to talk about and saw Jenson's fastest sector and used it as a talking point.
 
^ Button has always been incredible in the wet/dry races. DC didn't proclaim him a master for a single split-time - he's got a history of winning these races and it's not a coincidence. It may have been slightly misplaced in context of those exact split-times but the drivers were making big mistakes in every other sector anyway.

Having said that, from what I've seen Hamilton has incredible pace in fresh full-wet conditions. The cars struggle a lot with acceleration on wets, but Ham immediately shows huge commitment, and carries a lot more speed into and through the turns than anyone else on the track.

Anyway, it's epic to see two Brits in a British team with such contrasting characters, and personally I love seeing the cool thinker come out on top occasionally.
 
F1 fan
I think with Massa, it's a matter of pride. He seems very proud of driving for Ferrari. Let's not forget that his grandfather was an Italian who emigrated to Brazil.



He is commentating on a live race. Sometimes, it can be easy to lose track of who set what time in what sector etc. He was probably just looking for something to talk about and saw Jenson's fastest sector and used it as a talking point.
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I think Massa is playing smart. He knows Ferrari like a team player. It is the only drive in his hands he could possibly have a chance of winning the title. His mindset might be along the lines of, help the team with what they want, not make a fuss and if Ferrari make a dominant car, then try and be more ruthless then. It is no good getting yourself kicked out the team and see your career spiral down to a bigger low.



I think it is more of DC's bias / love to Jenson. Lewis was going a lot faster than Jenson for many laps before and first time Jenson beats one of Lewis's sector times by a good margin he says it, but went quiet on it after seeing maybe Lewis beat his lap time. If Button did beat Lewis on that lap by say a second then I'm sure we would have heard him say it. I don't think he said anything regarding Lewis pulling out over a second a lap over Jenson just the lap or the one before that.

However I can understand why he does this now: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/8671327/F1-Hungarian-Grand-Prix-2011-Jenson-Buttons-a-class-act-who-helped-keep-my-dignity-intact-says-David-Coulthard.html :sly:
 
Was Jenson the cool thinker though? He might have been going into the pits if it weren't for Hamilton being in front on track. Seriously though, they were going fast, both are good in these conditions and Vettel was struggling at the time(he went off track didn't he?) so they were pulling away. They should have just waited to see Webber's times or waited till Vettel pitted and they would have probably kept the lead. If they didn't keep the lead, I'd still say they would overtake Vettel as their pace was just brilliant.

They were in the heat of the moment though, hindsite is a wonderful thing.
 
Slurm
Anyway, it's epic to see two Brits in a British team with such contrasting characters, and personally I love seeing the cool thinker come out on top occasionally.
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I'd prefer seeing Button come out on top more often. Partly down to my hatred of Hamilton (which I won't go into) and the fact that I genuinely think Button's a really nice guy, but mostly down to the fact that when we have one of these races, they're normally epic.
 
I have been putting up with the Button bias for a long time now. It has definitely lessened over the last year ever since they got rid of that other idiot commentator who's name I cannot now remember.

If the roles were reversed and Button had gone to inters and it had cost him the race would you all turn and praise Hamilton for driving a smart race? Probably not, Button took a chance and it paid off, as he seems to always do in these conditions.
 
I think the only "Button bias" I see anywhere is due to his personality being very media-friendly and he always makes himself available to the media. But beyond that, I don't really see anyone being overly biased towards Jenson over any other driver, only James Allen/ITV did that a long time ago.

I think also there is an element of it being more of a notable event when Button is fast because he regularly isn't. When Hamilton sets fastest laps and sectors, it isn't really as surprising, though when anyone sets fastest sector times its always notable. The example of DC talking about JB's first sector is more an example of how desperately the commentators are trying to read the race and talk the race up rather than an indication of bias. I'm sure if DC had stared at the timing screen for the whole race, he would have been calling out all sorts of Hamilton times...but that isn't his job. Its not surprising and completely understandable that he didn't then mention Hamilton being faster over the lap because he could easily have fogotten he had said that and/or not noticed Hamilton's laptime due to thinking or focusing on something else.

Of course the British drivers have a small amount of bias on BBC regardless though, they will always get a mention and be talked up a little - as is only natural because the BBC know there are people who only tune into see how the Brits are doing.
But I think its done in a good moderation and when any other drivers are doing well, its usually noted and praised by Brundle, Coulthard and everyone else.

Again, I don't see any glaring bias, I think some people only see/hear what they want see/hear.
 
Fair call. I forgot about James Allen but he is the person who attribute most of the reasoning for my hate of Jenson Button. He is nowhere near the same level as Lewis in regular conditions and yet he is constantly praised. Like I said it has got better now but my basis for despise is still evident.
 
Pupik
It's the Grand Prix of (nation, or event placeholding as a nation because it has an event already)! The (next race) of the season at the (track name) circuit.

(Team) will be good here, as they can take advantage of their (aero/power/potentially illegal cheat device) against the (other team, who had mechanical issues/technical regulation which now reduces their pace/coasting to championship).

There's also the (disappointing team) who (is steadily losing ground/technical director left for another team/lost their sponsor). And this is also an important race for the (backmarker team), because at the (last race) Grand Prix, they (cheated/disqualified/put the car in a crate that was too large for the aircraft, and didn't show up).

This is also an important race for (Grand Prix driver), who is racing in front of his home crowd this weekend. (Another driver) will be looking to (close the points gap/get revenge/bore the crowd by leading every lap), so he can (show off to his VIP visitors this weekend/explain things to his work-release officer/get free champagne).

[You Tube video that will be removed eventually.]

[Other data.]

[More data]

[Photo of racing car with driver skillfully rounding a corner.]

[Prediction based on whim.]
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lmao
 
DwightSchrute12
Actually, I don't like Nascar at all, I was trying to be subtle about the ludicrous amount of Nascar coverage in the US and hardly anything else, like BTCC. I guess I should have just said that.
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Considering none of the marquee NASCAR races are on Speed and people regularly complain on their own website about their programming choices, you'd think they'd try to focus more on other series, but nope. It's lifestyle show, NASCAR, lifestyle show, lifestyle show, NASCAR, NASCAR...
 
DwightSchrute12
Actually, I don't like Nascar at all, I was trying to be subtle about the ludicrous amount of Nascar coverage in the US and hardly anything else, like BTCC. I guess I should have just said that.
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Try Speed2.com if you have one of the supported broadcasters, they have BTCC listed in their covered series'.

YellowG1
Considering none of the marquee NASCAR races are on Speed and people regularly complain on their own website about their programming choices, you'd think they'd try to focus more on other series, but nope. It's lifestyle show, NASCAR, lifestyle show, lifestyle show, NASCAR, NASCAR...
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Thing is that it's cheaper to make a crappy lifestyle show or yet another NASCAR show and get 100,000 viewers than it is to pay for a series license and maybe get 50,000.

Maybe if the people on their website would stop complaining on their website and watch what little they do show on TV they would be more inclined to air more.

I would love for Speed to show more international stuff, but I also realize it's not exactly cheap to broadcast a series that not many people will watch.
 

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