Formula One Eni Magyar Nagydij 2011

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by astrosdude91, Jul 26, 2011.

  1. Mike Rotch

    Mike Rotch Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    13,828
    Location:
    Australia
    I'm allowed to contribute to a public forum as much as the next guy, and I didn't come close to any AUP breakage. Deal with it.

    So what then of DC's observation about Sauber coming every weekend with a strategy of 'run em long and steady' instead of trying to use the pace of the car to try and get and 8th/9th/10th finish?

    It must be frustrating for KK; on a few occasions he has ended up in a useful spot (admittedly due to their strategy of less stops) only to have a gaggle of cars on fresh cut him up.
     
  2. F1 fan

    F1 fan Premium

    Messages:
    5,379
    Location:
    Scotland
    I'm aware of that, but I was simply stating the facts. Maybe if our situation was reversed, and you were stating facts and I said "nobody cares" the forum reaction would have been different. That's why I think this kind of attitude is surprising to see from a moderator. I wasn't speculating, I wasn't dreaming, I was just telling it as it happened.

    I think their out and out race pace is lacking, so they just go for the best strategy for them... Having said that, I can't think of them even try anything different. Would be interesting if someone else tried the same strategy. Or maybe Sauber have just stumbled upon the ideal strategy, but few have picked up on it.
     
  3. homeforsummer

    homeforsummer Premium

    Messages:
    26,435
    Still goes to show that consistency is the key. I mean, winning is pretty good too and he's done plenty of that, but the better you can make your bad days, the more likely you'll stay ahead of the pack.

    You mention Schumacher but anyone remember Hill in 1996? Very similar to Vettel's season really - in the races he finished, he only finished outside the top 2 positions twice. Top 2 in 10 of the 16 races.

    That said, I'm a big Hill fan but I don't remember that season being anywhere near as exciting as this one - there's nothing quite like having five or six drivers capable of winning.

    I do think management has a lot to do with it though. McLaren has changed quite a lot since Ron handed over the reins to Whitmarsh, but they've not really become less competitive either. The situation we have with Button and Hamilton is definitely far more even than any previous pairing since Prost and Senna - and even then Prost and Senna weren't as closely matched. Senna thrashed Prost back in 88. I've not seen that kind of dominance from Hamilton.

    But then, it makes for great racing when they're so evenly matched.

    I think Red Bull/Vettel/Webber have made big progress rather than McLaren/Ferrari losing speed. Maybe they're not keen to stifle that progress by having two drivers battling evenly for the title, but then Vettel is clearly quicker more often than Mark, so I still don't see the harm in them battling occasionally and RBR doesn't seem to want them to.
     
  4. Ardius

    Ardius

    Messages:
    10,373
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Well then things get very complicated - do you hold all the cars in the pitlane till Heidfeld's car is recovered? What if this puts all those cars a lap down or more?

    Watch the BTCC from Snetterton this weekend? :D
     
  5. Mike Rotch

    Mike Rotch Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    13,828
    Location:
    Australia
    The car's would also mostly likely overheat sitting there at the end of the pitlane waiting for the marshalls to trundle back behind the retaining wall.
     
  6. Brend

    Brend Premium

    Messages:
    11,696
    Di Resta put on an incredible performance! On yourself son. :tup:
     
  7. Pezzarinho17

    Pezzarinho17

    Messages:
    2,763
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    It was a great race yesterday, the conditions looked exceptionally tricky at the start but every driver proved their worth by limiting individual mistakes to 1 at the most!

    I agreed with the penalty to Hamilton, whether or not he saw Di Resta specifically as he knows where the racing line is and that he is sharing the track with 23 other drivers. Yes his car was on the racing line after the spin and he did well to recover it as quickly as he did, but in doing so the way he did he placed half of his car back on the line.

    Strategically his race had been compromised at this point and from such a dominant position. By putting option tyres on his car he was forced to either extend a gap for a pitstop over Button, or make the tyres last twice as long as expected. Being so close to Button following the spin and when the sudden burst of rain came, his only choice was to gamble for new intermediate tyres. Not sure what he would have done otherwise, but I think he was destined for fourth from the spin onwards.

    Button was outstanding again, getting into second and maintaining the gap as best he could. When strategy played effect later on he knew exactly what tyres to be on. Called the move to the dry tyres perfectly as well once again. A special occassion to win on his 200th GP weekend!

    The second time we have seen the Renault on fire right by the driver, I think it is time for the FIA to step with this one. Next time Nick / Vitaly might not be so lucky, and the marshall getting hit by fragments is a very scary thought too. They have the rearward facing exhausts designed and ready too so only loss will be in marginal performance.

    A note about the Ferrari pairing too, impressed with Massa's qualifying performance and then in maintaining it during the race as Alonso made mistakes. Massa's was far more costly, but he coped with the damage well, setting fastest lap of the race. Felipe doesn't deserve to be at Ferrari as Alonso's rear gunner and would be best seeking a drive elsewhere.

    FIA could send a message to all teams "Pitlane will be closed until further notice at 14.20". Allows teams in the pitlane to get cars out or to tell drivers not to pit. Would have been an issue before if people were running out of fuel, but biggest danger would have been in a driver hitting the tyre's cliff.
     
  8. Pupik

    Pupik Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    17,596
    Location:
    United States
    Yeah, I thought it was dumb, too...rather dangerous by the marshals. Vettel could not see what was coming up in the confines of the the pits and exit.

    To be fair:

    A) The marshals were probably unaware that the pit lane had a large puddle of water at the end of it that was shaded from the little bit of sun that was ever available during the race. Every car seemed to get squirrelly at that spot, especially when shod with Super Softs.

    B) Towing the stricken Renault down the course, towards the break in the Armco near the apex of the Turn 1 hairpin, might have been even more dangerous. Cars would be going by at even higher rates of speed, where there is lots of overtaking, and due to potential lack of grip from a wet, downhill braking area.

    C) No room for a large boom crane near the infield of hairpin, as there is a tunnel underneath that area.

    So probably a safety car would have been a good idea for a lap or two...I usually am not a big supporter of the safety car, but this would have been an entirely valid reason to use it.

    And congrats to Button, who really made the most of every situation and for shining through at his 200th race! He really seems to do well in these types of "changing conditions" races.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2011
  9. Hollidog

    Hollidog

    Messages:
    610
    Moot point: An issue regarded as potentially debatable, but no longer practically applicable. Although the idea may still be worth debating and exploring academically, and such discussion may be useful for addressing similar issues in the future, the idea has been rendered irrelevant for the present issue.

    The marshals could have been injured by Vettel, or anyone else who came out of the pits, but they weren't. The irony is that the users name is Moot.
     
  10. Tired Tyres

    Tired Tyres

    Messages:
    10,340
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    There is never a need for safety cars. This issue could easily have been dealt with by properly respected yellow flags as happens at the Nordschleife during races. That means slow down a lot in the yellow flag area. A mechanism which should be extended to all race tracks.

    The problem I've got with the white line exiting the pitlane is that cars on the track are allowed to cross it from the other direction. That's dangerous.
     
  11. Saidur_Ali

    Saidur_Ali

    Messages:
    6,425
    Congratulations to Button. I thought he'd win once Lewis went on to the super soft tyres. Lewis seemed to have gone on to the lasting the tyres strategy rather than hot lapping as he was getting caught by Button on the slower tyre quite quickly. At that moment I thought it could not get any worse but it did. Surprised that Lewis spun, it is the first time I've seen him spin in a race for a long time. Then it started raining and I wanted Lewis to stay out by being behind but he managed to pass Button again and that destroyed his chance of a podium. His recovery from his spin I thought was quite impressive. He managed to turn the car around on the spot which would give drivers on the left and right space to drive on the track. That still ruined any chance of victory due to penalty and losing the gap he had to Jenson at the time. When he was chasing Webber, I remembered Singapore when Lewis tried to take advantage of traffic and hoped it ended well this time and it did.

    I knew Lewis would do a good interview as he was the one that did the big mistake that cost his chance of the victory. You will be more gutted about what you did, hence why Lewis thought he let the team down at the time of the interview.

    Also what is with David Coulthard bigging up Jenson earlier on the GP. Lewis was outpacing Button a lot earlier on his stints. Jenson started catching some of the time he lost later on. The particular part Coulthard commentated on was when he said Jenson was 6 tenths faster in the 1st sector compared to Lewis. He did not say at the end of the laps Lewis was about a whole tenth quicker but that wouldn't fit with Jenson Button being a master in these conditions in terms of pace. I think the two laps before Lewis was pulling out a second a lap too. That made it sound even more strange then as the first time Jenson beat one of Lewis sector times, he becomes a master :sly:.

    Alonso did well to get a podium. He went off quite often but recovered the situation in the end. Vettel also with some bit of luck with Webber going on the inters, and team forcing him to stay out kept 2nd place and makes the championship more out of reach. He needs to go on a DNF run like the start of his 2008 season for others to have a chance. Massa showing again that a broken Ferrari is a quicker one.
     
  12. homeforsummer

    homeforsummer Premium

    Messages:
    26,435
    It's a pity that Hungary's layout doesn't allow for a pit lane exit that loops around inside the first corner and emerges on the inside of the exit of turn 1, which would be significantly safer.

    Erm... you realise that if Button is six 10ths quicker in one sector and Lewis is a tenth quicker in another, that still makes Jenson faster by half a second, right?...

    I would have said they were pretty even on pace, as illustrated by them passing each other several times. In that sort of scenario it's the guy who doesn't make mistakes that wins.
     
  13. Saidur_Ali

    Saidur_Ali

    Messages:
    6,425
    Lewis was quicker by a second or something the last lap and I think also the lap before. The lap we are talking about Jenson was 6 tenths quicker in the first sector but Lewis made 7 tenths in the other two sectors making at the end of the lap 1 tenth quicker like I said. He then matched or beat Jenson's 1st sector the next lap if I recall correctly. I had live timing so it was funny to hear David praise Jenson for being faster when Lewis was pulling a second a lap on him the two laps before and managed to beat him in the lap we are also talking about. Coulthard was using it as a sign that Jenson was faster than Lewis in these conditions at that time even though Lewis beat him in the last 3 laps in total by over 2 seconds. This is off memory so accuracy is probably +- 1 seconds.
     
  14. F1 fan

    F1 fan Premium

    Messages:
    5,379
    Location:
    Scotland
    I think with Massa, it's a matter of pride. He seems very proud of driving for Ferrari. Let's not forget that his grandfather was an Italian who emigrated to Brazil.

    He is commentating on a live race. Sometimes, it can be easy to lose track of who set what time in what sector etc. He was probably just looking for something to talk about and saw Jenson's fastest sector and used it as a talking point.
     
  15. dhandeh

    dhandeh Premium

    Messages:
    11,315
    Location:
    England
    New footage of the Heidfeld fire.



    The marshall was extremely lucky.
     
  16. Slurm

    Slurm

    Messages:
    1,170
    ^ Button has always been incredible in the wet/dry races. DC didn't proclaim him a master for a single split-time - he's got a history of winning these races and it's not a coincidence. It may have been slightly misplaced in context of those exact split-times but the drivers were making big mistakes in every other sector anyway.

    Having said that, from what I've seen Hamilton has incredible pace in fresh full-wet conditions. The cars struggle a lot with acceleration on wets, but Ham immediately shows huge commitment, and carries a lot more speed into and through the turns than anyone else on the track.

    Anyway, it's epic to see two Brits in a British team with such contrasting characters, and personally I love seeing the cool thinker come out on top occasionally.
     
  17. Saidur_Ali

    Saidur_Ali

    Messages:
    6,425
    I think Massa is playing smart. He knows Ferrari like a team player. It is the only drive in his hands he could possibly have a chance of winning the title. His mindset might be along the lines of, help the team with what they want, not make a fuss and if Ferrari make a dominant car, then try and be more ruthless then. It is no good getting yourself kicked out the team and see your career spiral down to a bigger low.



    I think it is more of DC's bias / love to Jenson. Lewis was going a lot faster than Jenson for many laps before and first time Jenson beats one of Lewis's sector times by a good margin he says it, but went quiet on it after seeing maybe Lewis beat his lap time. If Button did beat Lewis on that lap by say a second then I'm sure we would have heard him say it. I don't think he said anything regarding Lewis pulling out over a second a lap over Jenson just the lap or the one before that.

    However I can understand why he does this now: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/8671327/F1-Hungarian-Grand-Prix-2011-Jenson-Buttons-a-class-act-who-helped-keep-my-dignity-intact-says-David-Coulthard.html :sly:
     
  18. Akmuq

    Akmuq

    Messages:
    12,426
    Location:
    Ireland
    Was Jenson the cool thinker though? He might have been going into the pits if it weren't for Hamilton being in front on track. Seriously though, they were going fast, both are good in these conditions and Vettel was struggling at the time(he went off track didn't he?) so they were pulling away. They should have just waited to see Webber's times or waited till Vettel pitted and they would have probably kept the lead. If they didn't keep the lead, I'd still say they would overtake Vettel as their pace was just brilliant.

    They were in the heat of the moment though, hindsite is a wonderful thing.
     
  19. F1 fan

    F1 fan Premium

    Messages:
    5,379
    Location:
    Scotland
    I'd prefer seeing Button come out on top more often. Partly down to my hatred of Hamilton (which I won't go into) and the fact that I genuinely think Button's a really nice guy, but mostly down to the fact that when we have one of these races, they're normally epic.
     
  20. Hollidog

    Hollidog

    Messages:
    610
    I have been putting up with the Button bias for a long time now. It has definitely lessened over the last year ever since they got rid of that other idiot commentator who's name I cannot now remember.

    If the roles were reversed and Button had gone to inters and it had cost him the race would you all turn and praise Hamilton for driving a smart race? Probably not, Button took a chance and it paid off, as he seems to always do in these conditions.
     
  21. Ardius

    Ardius

    Messages:
    10,373
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I think the only "Button bias" I see anywhere is due to his personality being very media-friendly and he always makes himself available to the media. But beyond that, I don't really see anyone being overly biased towards Jenson over any other driver, only James Allen/ITV did that a long time ago.

    I think also there is an element of it being more of a notable event when Button is fast because he regularly isn't. When Hamilton sets fastest laps and sectors, it isn't really as surprising, though when anyone sets fastest sector times its always notable. The example of DC talking about JB's first sector is more an example of how desperately the commentators are trying to read the race and talk the race up rather than an indication of bias. I'm sure if DC had stared at the timing screen for the whole race, he would have been calling out all sorts of Hamilton times...but that isn't his job. Its not surprising and completely understandable that he didn't then mention Hamilton being faster over the lap because he could easily have fogotten he had said that and/or not noticed Hamilton's laptime due to thinking or focusing on something else.

    Of course the British drivers have a small amount of bias on BBC regardless though, they will always get a mention and be talked up a little - as is only natural because the BBC know there are people who only tune into see how the Brits are doing.
    But I think its done in a good moderation and when any other drivers are doing well, its usually noted and praised by Brundle, Coulthard and everyone else.

    Again, I don't see any glaring bias, I think some people only see/hear what they want see/hear.
     
  22. Hollidog

    Hollidog

    Messages:
    610
    Fair call. I forgot about James Allen but he is the person who attribute most of the reasoning for my hate of Jenson Button. He is nowhere near the same level as Lewis in regular conditions and yet he is constantly praised. Like I said it has got better now but my basis for despise is still evident.
     
  23. CarolinaBlue704

    CarolinaBlue704

    Messages:
    311
    Location:
    United States
    Unfortunately, we do not get coverage of the BTCC here in the US. Maybe I will find a decent stream...
     
  24. DwightSchrute12

    DwightSchrute12

    Messages:
    631
    Location:
    United States
    If Dale Earnhardt Jr. drove in it we would...:grumpy:

    I think during the break I'll catch up on WRC and I think ALMS is this weekend. It's something.
     
  25. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

    Messages:
    22,448
    Location:
    United States
    I see someone doesn't like Jr.
     
  26. killa_kandy

    killa_kandy (Banned)

    Messages:
    168
    lmao
     
  27. DwightSchrute12

    DwightSchrute12

    Messages:
    631
    Location:
    United States
    Actually, I don't like Nascar at all, I was trying to be subtle about the ludicrous amount of Nascar coverage in the US and hardly anything else, like BTCC. I guess I should have just said that.
     
  28. YellowG1

    YellowG1

    Messages:
    717
    Considering none of the marquee NASCAR races are on Speed and people regularly complain on their own website about their programming choices, you'd think they'd try to focus more on other series, but nope. It's lifestyle show, NASCAR, lifestyle show, lifestyle show, NASCAR, NASCAR...
     
  29. Northstar

    Northstar Premium

    Messages:
    21,466
    Location:
    United States
    Try Speed2.com if you have one of the supported broadcasters, they have BTCC listed in their covered series'.

    Thing is that it's cheaper to make a crappy lifestyle show or yet another NASCAR show and get 100,000 viewers than it is to pay for a series license and maybe get 50,000.

    Maybe if the people on their website would stop complaining on their website and watch what little they do show on TV they would be more inclined to air more.

    I would love for Speed to show more international stuff, but I also realize it's not exactly cheap to broadcast a series that not many people will watch.
     
  30. DwightSchrute12

    DwightSchrute12

    Messages:
    631
    Location:
    United States
    I can't, believe me I tried.