Formula One Gran Premio De España Santander 2011

[MarkWebber]

You can't really make excuses for Webber anymore.

Mark is extremely poor during the opening lap of a Gran Prix.

 

[Hollidog]

You can't really make excuses for Webber anymore.

Mark is extremely poor during the opening lap of a Gran Prix.

His protégé certainly isnt bad. Winning the first GP3 race this weekend and coming from 8th to 5th in the second. As well as taking pole.

I agree, it seems like there are too many "old heads" in the sport today. The likes of Trulli, Barichello and to a certain extant even the "number two" drivers of Massa and Webber. I dont think Schumacher will get the boot but I think he will take it upon himself to move over, I think he is too proud.

-------------

Thoughts on DRS and the other new features this weekend?
I thought it was pretty average, didnt really have the desired effect and I didnt see much overtaking as a result of it (I could be wrong on this).
Personally I liked the way the tires were in Turkey a lot more. I think they should last roughly the same time but one should offer more grip than the other, by a considerable amount. That being said if they were like this then I dont think this would solve the problem as drivers would just want to minimize the time spent on them which kind of negates the purpose of them.

I also think that KERS should be a standardized feature where everyone has the same equipment. It kind of spoils the race when some drivers dont have it. Its not particularly fair either. Though I can see how the Red Bulls lacking made this race interesting, rather than just a walkover.

Brundles comment during quali was also interesting, about how there should be an extra set of tires available for the last five minutes of Q3. I agree with him that in 09/10 quali used to be much more interesting and it was more of an edge of the seat affair. Whereas now RBR just go out blast a lap and then park it in the box and the rest of the field sort of file in.

 

[Ardius]

As for talent, well he isn't much more than Barrichello or Trulli or whichever other average driver on the grid, couple that to the way Ferrari is managing him and failing miserably both drivers in such hard moment and then you'll have the recipe for a loser. Time to move to a lesser team and give room to younger and more talented drivers? I think so.

I think Barrichello deserves a better label than "average". 👎

 

[Danny]

The benefits of experienced drivers like Barrichello and Trulli are threefold. Their experience makes developing and setting up a car quicker. Plus, they're great racecraft mentors for the new drivers in the sport. And finally, their experience of spacial and mechanical awareness means they're more likely to nurse the car home to the finish. For newly developing teams like Lotus, that's invaluable.

 

[Ardius]

I think Barrichello has shown time and again that he is more than just an experienced driver like Trulli now is, he doesn't just finish races and help the team. He is still very fast and can compete with the young guys still.
Being beat by Schumacher as he was is no bad thing and his career before and after Ferrari has been (from the point of view of his ability) excellent.

While he isn't the best driver out there and he has several off races and can get very emotional, he is by no means "average".

I'd say its possibly fair to call Trulli average as he has as many bad weekends as he does good. He isn't a bad driver but not brilliant either. Its sad people are continuing to put him down as demotivated at Lotus though, it couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[Hollidog]

Dont get me wrong, I never said they were bad. I just said they were old
In the scheme of things, they are the most likely ones of the current generation to get the shove.

 

[livemusic]

Massa is definitely a better driver than Barrichello. But he isn't at the level of Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel.

 

[Ardius]

I disagree, Massa has yet to prove himself as good as Rubens, he is nowhere near as consistent. Rubens has at least regularly beaten all of his teammates, even if not overall through the season, with the only exception obviously being Michael, which goes without saying wasn't really a fair fight (though to be fair, Michael was faster most of the time anyway).

Put it this way, I can't see Massa ever matching any of Barrichello's stats.

 

[Hollidog]

I disagree, Massa has yet to prove himself as good as Rubens, he is nowhere near as consistent. Rubens has at least regularly beaten all of his teammates, even if not overall through the season, with the only exception obviously being Michael, which goes without saying wasn't really a fair fight (though to be fair, Michael was faster most of the time anyway).

Put it this way, I can't see Massa ever matching any of Barrichello's stats.

Massa has a better win/start percentage
Massa: 11/140= 7.8%
Barrichello: 11/308=3.5%

I know its just one stat, and an unreliable one at that, but you said any, and I found one.

Compared with Hamilton and Vettel who are both up around 20%

 

[Stevisiov]

Nobody else noticed a great drive by Nick Heidfeld, dead last start to eighth place finish?

Certainly the TV coverage missed it.

I'm wondering if anyone noticed Kobayashi?

His soft tyres punctured on the first lap of the race, not only did he effectively start in last place, he also started effectively a minute down on everyone else. Despite this, he finished 10th, 2 places behind heidfeld and much less than a minute behind.

 

[Dotini]

Dont get me wrong, I never said they were bad. I just said they were old
In the scheme of things, they are the most likely ones of the current generation to get the shove.

I don't see how "slasher" Sutil, slower than diResta, can maintain his seat any longer.

 

[Centura]

I'm wondering if anyone noticed Kobayashi?

His soft tyres punctured on the first lap of the race, not only did he effectively start in last place, he also started effectively a minute down on everyone else. Despite this, he finished 10th, 2 places behind heidfeld and much less than a minute behind.

Good point. I completely forgot about that. Very impressive.

It's unfortunate that we don't see Kobayashi on the screen very often.

 

[SaberFire]

We do, but only when he's attacking the big names like Schumacher and Massa etc,. Otherwise it's just another meaningless midfield squabble to the camera guys.

 

[Submerged]

I don't see how "slasher" Sutil, slower than diResta, can maintain his seat any longer.

"Slasher" Sutil? Care to elaborate?

 

[Famine]

"Slasher" Sutil? Care to elaborate?

Hither.

 

[CarolinaBlue704]

I'm wondering if anyone noticed Kobayashi?

His soft tyres punctured on the first lap of the race, not only did he effectively start in last place, he also started effectively a minute down on everyone else. Despite this, he finished 10th, 2 places behind heidfeld and much less than a minute behind.

You're right, another great drive by Kobayashi. Perez also finished in the points at 9th. Great weekend for Sauber.

 

[F1 fan]

Good point. I completely forgot about that. Very impressive.

It's criminal that we don't see Kobayashi on the screen very often.

Fixed for you.

We do, but only when he's attacking the big names like Schumacher and Massa etc,. Otherwise it's just another meaningless midfield squabble to the camera guys.

What a shame. Especially when he gains a lot of positions in a race. I feel like petitioning the Sauber website to release "onboard highlights". Too bad that legal issues would stop that.

"Slasher" Sutil? Care to elaborate?

Just remember that, no matter what you've read, Sutil hasn't been found guilty.

 

[Dan_]

I disagree, Massa has yet to prove himself as good as Rubens, he is nowhere near as consistent. Rubens has at least regularly beaten all of his teammates, even if not overall through the season, with the only exception obviously being Michael, which goes without saying wasn't really a fair fight (though to be fair, Michael was faster most of the time anyway).

Consistency is just one of the traits that define a champion, Rubens isn't fast and the only places he ever showed some serious driving were a couple of races in ferrari, his early Jordan races and his car-breaking performances on Jackie Stewart's team. That isn't enough to be a champion, he is just good and that means average on F1, whose grid holds many highly skilled and competitive drivers.

Put it this way, I can't see Massa ever matching any of Barrichello's stats.

I can't too, he'll probably be pissed of being always the second driver and will take on any other category, Barrichello was much more passive than Massa, which repeatedly shown disgust for the situation, Rubens was always the underdog and accepted that silently, Massa doesn't and that will shorten his F1 career.

 

[niky]

We didn't see a lot of Kobayashi because the choice of cameras for the race was off all race long.

They missed some great battles... and it was entertaining when... whoops... yes, we missed showing the part where Vettel and Hamilton overtook Alonso...

 

[Ardius]

I don't see how "slasher" Sutil, slower than diResta, can maintain his seat any longer.

Being slower due to strategies and bad luck means you shouldn't "maintain your seat any longer"? Get real, Sutil is not about to lose his seat, perhaps he won't get another seat elsewhere and he might be dropped for 2012, but right now he should be safe the rest of the season.

Massa has a better win/start percentage
Massa: 11/140= 7.8%
Barrichello: 11/308=3.5%

I know its just one stat, and an unreliable one at that, but you said any, and I found one.

Compared with Hamilton and Vettel who are both up around 20%

Well considering Barrichello has double the amount of race starts and has spent more seasons in non-winning cars than winning cars, not really much of stat there.

I meant that Massa won't be in F1 long enough to match the kinds of stats Barrichello currently tops, which are race starts, points scored, etc.

Consistency is just one of the traits that define a champion, Rubens isn't fast and the only places he ever showed some serious driving were a couple of races in ferrari, his early Jordan races and his car-breaking performances on Jackie Stewart's team. That isn't enough to be a champion, he is just good and that means average on F1, whose grid holds many highly skilled and competitive drivers.

What about beating Button at Honda 2008? What about his second half of 2009? What about last year scoring points in a lot of races and dominating his very highly rated rookie teammate, Hulkenburg?

Rubens was almost champion in 2009, perhaps if he had sorted his brake issues earlier he might have fought Jenson harder in the season. Ok, he didn't do that in the end...but "average" doesn't win races. Average doesn't almost become champion.

Average to me is drivers like Trulli, Panis, Kovalainen, Fisichella...drivers who can win 1 or 2 races but nothing more and have struggled under pressure.
Rubens is more than just "good"...he is very good, so good he could be champion. I would have no trouble placing him near the best, though he is not one of the best.

Let me ask, what do you think of drivers like Damon Hill, Jacques Villenueve, Nigel Mansell, Alan Jones? Because Rubens is as good as if not better than these drivers, and they were champions!

 

[FCB-Rizla-TML]

found vettels celebration over the radio.. gotta love this guy haha

 

[TenEightyOne]

Well considering Barrichello has double the amount of race starts and has spent more seasons in non-winning cars than winning cars, not really much of stat there.

Quite right, you need to add the fact that Rubens' win ratio was skewed by contractual obligations too.

He arguably had a car that could win races, it's also arguable that he could have won those races. The definite facts are that he was a contracted #2 driver for a team that have always admitted to using team orders in one form or another and that his teammate was Michael Schumacher at the top of his own form.

Statistics can't tell that story!

 

[Dan_]

What about beating Button at Honda 2008? What about his second half of 2009? What about last year scoring points in a lot of races and dominating his very highly rated rookie teammate, Hulkenburg?

Rubens was almost champion in 2009, perhaps if he had sorted his brake issues earlier he might have fought Jenson harder in the season. Ok, he didn't do that in the end...but "average" doesn't win races. Average doesn't almost become champion.

Yeah, his second half of the championship really was astonishing, but I honestly think that they took that championship because of the fancy diffusers, not just by sheer talent. Not to mention he has been on formula 1 since ever, and experience pays a lot.

Let me ask, what do you think of drivers like Damon Hill, Jacques Villenueve, Nigel Mansell, Alan Jones? Because Rubens is as good as if not better than these drivers, and they were champions!

I'm considerably young, so I don't recall memories of Alan Jones, but Hill was consistent, not briliant. Villeneuve was a complete nut and not a very skilled driver at all, he just doesn't seem to understand the concept of death ( much like Montoya I presume...) and therefore was quite fast. Not to mention that he was way too agressive at defending position, almost suicidal in plain english.

Mansell on the other hand was pure fire, certainly not as refined as Prost, Senna or even Schumacher for that matter, but still a great driver.

Honestly, Rubens lacks one quintessential ability to be considered one of the all time great drivers : ambition. Although your post really made me think about it, I honestly still can't see him as more than average.

Fisichella, Verstappen and some others you mentioned are just awful. They're not yardsticks to define an average driver, they are way below that line.

 

[Ardius]

Fisichella awful? Brawn's success only due to a diffuser? Red Bull's success is "only" due to Adrian Newey, does that make Vettel average?

You've got to be having a laugh trying to put Ruben's success down to a diffuser whereas Senna's oh-so-great win at Donington was according to the man himself, all to do with traction control. Of course Rubens only won races when he had a car ahead of the rest of the field..thats how F1 is, you can't win with any other car. The fact is he beat his teammate who also had this diffuser, he also beat other cars which also had this diffuser (Toyota, Williams). The Red Bull wasn't far off that year so clearly the diffuser wasn't that much of an advantage, and very quickly the other teams out-developed Brawn by mid-season, which is when Rubens started shining. So hang on, Rubens wins were down to this mega diffuser, except it wasn't mega by that time? Surely there is something else that let him win? Perhaps its his driving ability?

Rubens lacks ambition? What on earth does that mean? Its pretty obvious he wanted to be WDC and was totally gutted at Brazil 2009. Its painfully obvious he was not happy being told to let his teammate win too. What more can you need in ambition? The guy has just gone to Williams to try and turn them around! He has plenty of ambition.

Please, ask yourself why has Rubens been F1 a long time. If he was "average", why have F1 teams be so keen to continually hire him ever since 1993? An average driver doesn't stick around that long, they quickly find themself against a faster teammate and in this sport, its very quickly over. This is the sport where one of the fastest drivers ever was paid not to drive for a team simply because of his comparison to his teammate over a couple of seasons.

Words can't describe how amazed I am to think someone could call a race winner like Fisichella "awful". Sure he isn't a great, but he wasn't awful. Again, "awful" doesn't win races, "awful" doesn't stick a Force India on pole.

Awful is Nakajima, awful is Yuji Ide, awful is Ricardo Rosset. There are so, so, so very many drivers I can name as worse than Fisichella.

As for Jos Verstappen, heroic drives for Arrows anyone?

 

[Dan_]

Bah, opinions man. He's average, not a world champion, not a great driver to watch.

Moving on.

 

[F1 fan]

Let me ask, what do you think of drivers like Damon Hill, Jacques Villenueve, Nigel Mansell, Alan Jones? Because Rubens is as good as if not better than these drivers, and they were champions!

👍 But if it was me, I'd also have Keke Rosberg in that list.

Honestly, Rubens lacks one quintessential ability to be considered one of the all time great drivers : ambition. Although your post really made me think about it, I honestly still can't see him as more than average.

I don't see how you can say that Rubens lacks ambition. If you look at some of his statements to the press in 2009, he was confident he could be champion. He wants to be a world champion. It probably won't happen, but you can never write him off.

Just because someone doesn't constantly say they want to be champion, doesn't mean that they lack ambition. I could go into a rant here, but I think Ardius sums it up nicely.

Awful is Nakajima, awful is Yuji Ide, awful is Ricardo Rosset. There are so, so, so very many drivers I can name as worse than Fisichella.

I assume you're talking about Kazuki? I wouldn't say he was awful, but he wasn't far off it.

As for Jos Verstappen, heroic drives for Arrows anyone?

+1. Jos remained a bit of a personal hero of my friends and I until we heard about the wife beating and assault cases. Now he's more of a "fallen hero" imo. Certainly not awful.

Bah, opinions man. He's average, not a world champion, not a great driver to watch.

Moving on.

So are you saying the only drivers worth watching in the current field are Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Button and Schumacher?

How do you rate Nico Rosberg? He's not a world champion, but he's walking all over his team mate who just so happens to be THE MOST SUCCESSFUL DRIVER OF ALL TIME...

 

[Dan_]

So are you saying the only drivers worth watching in the current field are Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Button and Schumacher?

No, I just said that Rubens isn't quite spetacular. Although I can only presume you do have enough intelligence to get to that conclusion, but still you appear to fancy distorting what I've said to your own amusement.

How do you rate Nico Rosberg? He's not a world champion, but he's walking all over his team mate who just so happens to be THE MOST SUCCESSFUL DRIVER OF ALL TIME...

The most successful driver of all time, not the best. You're not considering Schumacher's long pause neither his physical conditions which aren't on par with the younger men at the grid. He's older and that does make a difference.

Silly comparison, doesn't add to the discussion.

 

[fissionproject]

That was a great race - Props to Vettel for holding off Hamilton

I had to watch it a few days later on the DVR, but at least I could smash through all the commercials