Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[Scaff]

Ok granted what I'm trying to find out is how throwing a car around a track in forza is considered not realistic our driving on ice.

On that point I have no idea, while FM4 still has its own issues certainly the driving on ice feel is not one that I personally can relate to at all.

 

[Furinkazen]

No-one is disputing the track accuracy in GT5 (even if the source in this case is not exactly impartial - he's unlikely to not toe the party line), its more how the cars react to that track that is the subject under discussion.

Agreed, Lucas is hardly going to say "Hey Forza are superior!" any time soon...

The most I played Forza's physics was when i did 10 laps of Road Atlanta short in time trial at a mates house with sim handling, first time I had played Forza 4.

I was using the Robertson Racing Ford GT, and it was every bit the tail-happy RWD monster I expected, but in corners it just felt a little too floaty.

Now I know a RWD racecar with around 500hp is not going to be easy but it felt a little too sensitive. Now naturally if I had more time and if it was my game I would have played some more, customised settings to get a feel. But the handling too me is a little loose... with a 360 controller I struggled to get a hold of the car as it snapped sideways, though I did get some decent laps after about 5 or 6 laps of spins and getting up to scratch.

Compare with GT5 when you're in the nearest sinilar car (Ford GT LM), and yeah it feels snappy and tail-happy, like I said its a RWD monster, but it feels a little more... controlled... not going to bite you as much if you make a mistake.

 

[Tornado]

Perhaps you should have looked that one up instead......

Okay:

ti·rade/ˈtīrād/
Noun:
A long, angry speech of criticism or accusation

"Long"?
Well, you've made 6 pretty hefty posts about it so far that have been about nothing but that.

"Angry"?
Yeah, you've been pretty blatantly hostile and dismissive about it; so I'd say that fits.


"Speech of criticism or accusation"?
What do you think?






So yeah, tirade works. And since we are giving out grammar lessons apparently, I also believe the word you are actually looking for is "hypocrisy," not "irony," since you claimed here that he was doing it intentionally. It's similar to how you've been being hypocritical for dismissing his arguments outright and then complaining because you are claiming he has been ignoring yours.

But since he wasn't being hyopcritical in the first place, I guess that's just irrelevant now, isn't it?





One last thing, though:

I would suggest that you are perhaps a little too invested in this debate to see that not everybody posting is looking for a fight.

> Makes 7 posts defending an indefensible viewpoint well beyond after it became clear it was indefensible, to the extent of intentionally misrepresenting arguments to support it.

"You are perhaps a little too invested in this debate to see that not everybody posting is looking for a fight."

You see, that's irony.









Anyway:

I was using the Robertson Racing Ford GT, and it was every bit the tail-happy RWD monster I expected, but in corners it just felt a little too floaty.

Now I know a RWD racecar with around 500hp is not going to be easy but it felt a little too sensitive. Now naturally if I had more time and if it was my game I would have played some more, customised settings to get a feel. But the handling too me is a little loose... with a 360 controller I struggled to get a hold of the car as it snapped sideways, though I did get some decent laps after about 5 or 6 laps of spins and getting up to scratch.

Compare with GT5 when you're in the nearest sinilar car (Ford GT LM), and yeah it feels snappy and tail-happy, like I said its a RWD monster, but it feels a little more... controlled... not going to bite you as much if you make a mistake.

To be fair, the nearest similar car to an ALMS GT car in this case basically amounts to a car that PD made up wholesale, that follows no real racing regulations that I can think of (but would probably be most analogous to a pre-2010 FIA GT1 car if anything). It's hard to directly compare them in this instance because of that, as I would argue that the similarities are only skin-deep.

For example, the amount of downforce that the GT5 car has is very likely far higher than anything the Forza car can achieve.

 

[ImTheZobi]

well after playing both games my opinion is:
GT5 has alot of great stuff that are better than the forza's (manu,online,dealerships and so...).
but the main thing is that the forza 4 game has better vehicles than GT5.
i mean i love the option of 1000+ cars..
but i use less then 250..
altough in forza after only few games i used alot of cars that are more intresting and so.
i mean its fun to play with silvia or skyline. but 16 of them are too much..there is no point in putting all those unneccesery (sorry for poor english) things.
instead of three diffferent Ford GT's i would prefer a devon GTX or other saleens like the raptor.
thats my opinion please do not attack me for what i wrote i understands that not everyone think the same as me. pleasent disccusion everyone

 

[Goshin2568]

There is nothing wrong with supplying a link......just in your suggestion that a majority of people thinking something shows that it is therefore true......very ammusing coming from somebody making the point in a thread where he is arguing AGAINST the majority view. If you cant see the irony of that then obviously you will be unable to understand the point I am making.

You are missing the whole point here. Yes, that would be ironic, but since the poll isn't accurate (the point Scaff was trying to make) because most of those people who voted haven't had nearly enough time with both games to give a fair vote, Scaff is not arguing against any kind of majority. Therefore making it NOT ironic.

 

[Kamdoon]

Yes the FIA does have rules for track design and the drawings that go with them, with modern F1 tracks they are quite strict in regard to elevation changes, run-off areas, etc.

The advantage behind this information being published is that the rules for the maps have the track edge clearly defined on them, and these have to match the actual track boundaries.

While I'm sure video games designers make use of them, they are mainly in place to ensure that track changes are recorded and available to all teams.

Thanks, Scaff. Makes sense.👍

 

[King1982]

Agreed, Lucas is hardly going to say "Hey Forza are superior!" any time soon...

The most I played Forza's physics was when i did 10 laps of Road Atlanta short in time trial at a mates house with sim handling, first time I had played Forza 4.

I was using the Robertson Racing Ford GT, and it was every bit the tail-happy RWD monster I expected, but in corners it just felt a little too floaty.

Now I know a RWD racecar with around 500hp is not going to be easy but it felt a little too sensitive. Now naturally if I had more time and if it was my game I would have played some more, customised settings to get a feel. But the handling too me is a little loose... with a 360 controller I struggled to get a hold of the car as it snapped sideways, though I did get some decent laps after about 5 or 6 laps of spins and getting up to scratch.

Compare with GT5 when you're in the nearest sinilar car (Ford GT LM), and yeah it feels snappy and tail-happy, like I said its a RWD monster, but it feels a little more... controlled... not going to bite you as much if you make a mistake.

So how do you think a monster like that would react in real life if you would hit the peddle too the metal mid corner?... Yess spin..

Btw Gt5 has so many setting that any player can custumize it too his specific drivingstyle. Traction control and ABS both have ten levels how is that realistic. In real life it's either on or off like in Fm. If you can handle it is another discussion. After years off training i can drive allmost any car in Fm4 without traction control and stability control. I even had problems switching from car too car while i'm playing at home. I need about 2 laps too get my tyres warm in Forza and learn how too drive the car.

What i noticed in Forza is that you have really learn too drive each car once selecting it because you cannot drive every car the same way. The way you hit the brakes, the way you downshift and turn in are very important factors. it's still hard too get it perfect each lap. That's what i love about FM it is just very challenging. My Ruf Rt12 needs too slow down very early in the corner too exit proper. My Scuderia can be thrown into corners because it has better weightbalance.

 

[Furinkazen]

So how do you think a monster like that would react in real life if you would hit the peddle too the metal mid corner?... Yess spin..

Btw Gt5 has so many setting that any player can custumize it too his specific drivingstyle. Traction control and ABS both have ten levels how is that realistic. In real life it's either on or off like in Fm. If you can handle it is another discussion. After years off training i can drive allmost any car in Fm4 without traction control and stability control. I even had problems switching from car too car while i'm playing at home. I need about 2 laps too get my tyres warm in Forza and learn how too drive the car.

What i noticed in Forza is that you have really learn too drive each car once selecting it because you cannot drive every car the same way. The way you hit the brakes, the way you downshift and turn in are very important factors. it's still hard too get it perfect each lap. That's what i love about FM it is just very challenging. My Ruf Rt12 needs too slow down very early in the corner too exit proper. My Scuderia can be thrown into corners because it has better weightbalance.

Oh yeah it'll be wild IRL. just saying about the difference in how it feels.

 

[miDnIghtEr20C]

I'm also pointing out the irony of somebody claiming this who has spent months arguing AGAINST the majority opinion

LMAO, talk about irony. This is delicious seeing these guys own you. Much different story here, where you aren't protected by your bias mods on your favorite site.

God how I wish "majority opinion" counted for you when it came to review scores overall of Forza vs GT this generation... but I recall when people would bring up "majority opinion", someone would bring up sales.

Again.... this has been great reads. I am loving seeing these guys on GTPlanet, smacking their heads at your post. You are not protected by the bias mods of HDD, and your cronies over there, that never have played both games, don't even own a 360, yet have expert opinions on why Forza doesn't have the same physics as GT5.

Lol... continue on boys. 👍

 

[Furinkazen]

One thing which GT does NOT simulate well is the body roll and collisions of cars. You throw a car into an extreme angle IRL or over a kerb, or even through contact with other cars, and you can end up airbourne. GT5's biggest failiure in this department is the lack of reaction when colliding with opponents, it doesn't feel like an "impact", and that annoying "bayum" sound effect doesn;t help either.

Also, looking at GT5, when a car spins IRL at high speed, air may get under the car and lift it. The best example is NASCAR where they have roof flaps that open to disrupt airflow, preventing the car from lifting off. Why can GT NOT simulate any of this? Many games have tried this where if you spin backwards at high speeds, the car tries to lift off - why can GT not?

I mentioned body roll at the start as well because when you're kerb hopping or particulary throwing it sideways there's still almost no threat of rolling over or even going on two wheels, with the exception of the VW Beetle and Samba Bus.

For me, these are the two biggest detractors from GT5's feel.

EDIT: 1,000 post in thread

 

[SlipZtrEm]

And yet again you resort to the majority must be right argument......and again I think that is amussingly ironic given you are making it in a thread where you have spent months debating that the majority are not right.

Let me make this clear for you: offering examples of a differing opinion is not the same as telling someone "you're wrong" or "shut up", despite your seeming inability to separate the two. If you have to resort to making up quotes to continue your argument, it holds no water.

There are no threats here, just (now repeated) reminders to follow the rules you agreed to when joining the site.

 

[JDMKING13]

So how do you think a monster like that would react in real life if you would hit the peddle too the metal mid corner?... Yess spin..

Btw Gt5 has so many setting that any player can custumize it too his specific drivingstyle. Traction control and ABS both have ten levels how is that realistic. In real life it's either on or off like in Fm. If you can handle it is another discussion. After years off training i can drive allmost any car in Fm4 without traction control and stability control. I even had problems switching from car too car while i'm playing at home. I need about 2 laps too get my tyres warm in Forza and learn how too drive the car.

What i noticed in Forza is that you have really learn too drive each car once selecting it because you cannot drive every car the same way. The way you hit the brakes, the way you downshift and turn in are very important factors. it's still hard too get it perfect each lap. That's what i love about FM it is just very challenging. My Ruf Rt12 needs too slow down very early in the corner too exit proper. My Scuderia can be thrown into corners because it has better weightbalance.

To keep it real the way GT5 does it is better in my opinion because you can actually give specific cars different values for example GTR35 will have a better traction control then a Honda S2000. In my league the R35 can have a 4 TCS while the S2000 can only get a 1. Same with ABS some ABS system are better than others in GT5 you can actually set this up because we get to customize abs. In Forza you cannot it's either on or off. Also with tires I wish we could put lesser tires on some cars because they have to much grip in my opinion in stock form. Don't believe me watch best motoring video and try to match up your times with the cast on Tskuba. I beat them by 2 to 3 seconds when driving stock cars that they are driving. At least in GT5 I can put a lesser tire on to get a better resemblance of the car.

 

[Gdog96]

The thing is, on forzaplanet.net the poll is the other way round, most guys over there think forza is better..wierd, even so it's interesting seeing people's views on the subject.

 

[thelvynau]

The thing is, on forzaplanet.net the poll is the other way round, most guys over there think forza is better..wierd, even so it's interesting seeing people's views on the subject.

Is that sarcasm?

 

[Gdog96]

Is that sarcasm?

Now that I re-read it it does sound sarcy but it's not, I was just pointing it out.

 

[thelvynau]

Now that I re-read it it does sound sarcy but it's not, I was just pointing it out.

No probs lol sorry I wasnt criticising.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Would you expect it not to be biased leaning from one site to the next?

 

[skazz]

Having recently played a lot of Forza 4 and GT5 in blocks of a week at a time per game, my views are gradually changing as to which sim does what better, as I myself put more time in and begin to understand each game's subtleties better.

One key realisation on my part is just how important it is in Forza not to change down too early. Bad GT5 habits (which I thought I'd unlearned via rFactor but must relearned in the last year or so) of using engine braking and changing down early will dramatically upset most road cars in Forza, but for some reason I wasn't getting the same feel as i did in rFactor so it took me a while to realise my mistake.

As I look at things now, the biggest difference between the two games is how tyres behave on the edge of grip. This is an area where GT5 does offer more nuance than you might think at first glance, but still seems to have a kind of "penalty" implemented where tyres won't regain grip for far longer than I've experienced in any other race sim once you go over the limit. Then again, if you drive smoothly and look after your tyres (to avoid them overheating, I.e. so that the indicator stays light blue instead of going more white in colour) you simply don't encounter this "penalty" situation.

What GT5 definitely does better is letting you feel track surface undulations and detail through the FFB. On the other hand, Forza's use of the rumble motors in the wheel rim to tell you when the tyres are starting to lose grip (as a replacement for the seat of the pants feel) is great.

An interesting question I ask myself is "if I had to pick one of the two, which would it be?": the answer at the moment is GT5 purely for the vastly better Nordschleife track... But next month I could easily change my mind and prefer Forza's better car selection or better tyre model.

 

[amzgspider]

I have and do play both quite a bit. I play Forza strictly for painting and the customisation of cars I run races only to earn money. I can spend hours just designing a car in Forza. That being said GT5 is a far better and more realistic racing game and I can spend hours just running tracks.

 

[Scaff]

To keep it real the way GT5 does it is better in my opinion because you can actually give specific cars different values for example GTR35 will have a better traction control then a Honda S2000. In my league the R35 can have a 4 TCS while the S2000 can only get a 1. Same with ABS some ABS system are better than others in GT5 you can actually set this up because we get to customize abs. In Forza you cannot it's either on or off. Also with tires I wish we could put lesser tires on some cars because they have to much grip in my opinion in stock form. Don't believe me watch best motoring video and try to match up your times with the cast on Tskuba. I beat them by 2 to 3 seconds when driving stock cars that they are driving. At least in GT5 I can put a lesser tire on to get a better resemblance of the car.

While GT5 does indeed give you the ability to run traction control at differing levels and that option is absent in FM4, you are not correct in regard to ABS. FM4 allows the brake pressure to be adjusted (and a much great degree that GT5's ABS) which has a major effect on the ABS.

What I'm not sure of at the moment is if FM4 varies the degree of TC across cars or if its set at a single value, mainly because I never run with TC on (in either FM4 or GT5).

In regard to tyres, lap times are one of the worst measures you can use, differing weather conditions and the lack of 'fear' in a sim title are enough to get you around a track quicker than the real world. The level of grip a tyre produces is a much better and more accurate measure to apply and in this regard FM4's stock tyre either have around the right level of grip or actually are a little under (as is described here). While I would welcome a wide range of tyre choices in FM4 I would not give up the far more detailed tyre model that it has.

I have and do play both quite a bit. I play Forza strictly for painting and the customisation of cars I run races only to earn money. I can spend hours just designing a car in Forza. That being said GT5 is a far better and more realistic racing game and I can spend hours just running tracks.

Could you expand as to why you think this is?

 

[Gdog96]

No probs lol sorry I wasnt criticising.

Haha it's fine it was a misunderstanding.

 

[Spagetti69]

As for the different levels of ABS in GT.
I've asked numerous times what ABS 10 does.
No one has answered this ever.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

As for the different levels of ABS in GT.
I've asked numerous times what ABS 10 does.
No one has answered this ever.

Usually I don't use ABS aid in GT5, but I did try them numerous of times for testing purposes.
A simple test with a GT500 car at Fuji Speedway F corners with varying ABS level.
Car is Honda Raybrig NSX '00 with racing hard, stock everything, BB is constant 10/10

ABS 1
Brake only effective on straight, turning will greatly increase brake distance and the car still won't turn as intended as tire grip is solely used for braking. The car has tendency to easily heat up front tires and under steer when turning while braking into a corner. Turning is still possible while braking albeit only at very low speed.


ABS 5
Brake during turning is possible with less brake force available and tire grip received higher priority than lesser value of ABS. Not much tire grip available for turning compared to higher ABS value. This is the middle ground.

ABS 10
Brake during turning is more effective than any lesser value of ABS, hard braking from high speed during the straight is still the same as ABS 1, but upon entering the clipping point, the car is more responsive to turning and brake force adjusted accordingly to provide more tire grip for turning. Less underster when compared to ABS 1 or 5. Higher value ABS means more effective turning while braking, and the effectiveness applies from higher speed as well.

The differences are only marginal at best, unless the driver has a habit to turn deeply into the apex while still braking hard ( late braker ), then higher ABSvalue , eg ABS 10 is a good choice. Hope that helped you out a bit, but it's best to try it yourself, cheers.

I did all testing by applying full brake force - 100% all the way and no easing off.

 

[Spagetti69]

Thanks a lot ridox.

Is it true that locking your brakes in GT actually shortens your stopping distance?

Don't know if you've tested for that but posters have said locking up is the quickest way to stop in a straight line.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Thanks a lot ridox.

Is it true that locking your brakes in GT actually shortens your stopping distance?

Don't know if you've tested for that but posters have said locking up is the quickest way to stop in a straight line.

I did some test with BMW M3 Premium, full braking from 250km/h to a stop from 150m marker on Fuji Speedway. I did the tests with ABS 10 and ABS 0, all with BB 10/10 and no engine braking - meaning no downshifting at all, just pure braking. Tires used are Comfort Soft and Sports Hard. I did the tests both ABS 10 and without ABS - lock up, 3 times at least with each tire. The results are average.

Comfort Soft

ABS 10 and no ABS braking distance with full brake force until full stopping; with ABS at 10, braking distance is at average of 2 cars length shorter than no ABS, full tire lock all the way.

Sports Hard

ABS 10 and no ABS braking distance with full brake force until full stopping; with ABS at 10 braking distance is on average more than 2 car lengths longer than without ABS - full lock up all the way . This might be caused by tire with higher grip still gives out substantial friction even when sliding due to brake lock up.

Tried some more with racing tire hard and soft, with ABS 10, stopping distances for both tires are only marginally shorter, 1 or 2 car length at most than without ABS - full lock up.

Something is really odd, the results are not conclusive ... it seems different tires have different level of friction when sliding due brake lock up. Comfort tires tend to have longer stopping distance when locking up, while sports hard in particular is in the opposite, shorter with lock up ; while racing tires have very little difference in stopping distance. It's best not to lock up anyway, so these tests might not be much of use. By the way, I did all these tests with tire wear off, so with tire wear on, should be more realistic as brake lock ups eat away the tire and its grip level.

Notes : an easier way to test is to use any car on SSRX, use constant BB, accelerate hard until 1000m marker then brake hard until full stop. Try with different tires, with and without ABS.

 

[mykem]

I just don't agree with this. And here's why.

http://www.evo.co.uk/forza4/article3.php


http://www.evo.co.uk/forza4/article2.php



And finally from our dear old Scaff himself. Firstly here is his CV.



He has this to say.



These are all people with a vast knowledge of cars and their characteristics and dynamics. They talk about FM4 in very glowing terms. Can you give us some idea of your experience of vehicle dynamics?

You do realise that it was part of FM4/Evo's promotional (done upon FM4's release). It even says so on the article (if you read the actual magazine) that it's a promo/advertisement. Also I might add, Chris Harris who did the writing, use a gamepad as oppose to wheel- whilst he a brilliant driver, he's also a brilliant wordsmith. So essentially it's no different from when Sarrazin comments on FM3, Tanner Foust on GT5P (before he went TG USA) or Milner on SHIFT2 (although none have the verbal skill of "monkey" Harris).

 

[Scaff]

You do realise that it was part of FM4/Evo's promotional (done upon FM4's release).
It even says so on the article (if you read the actual magazine) that it's a promo/advertisement.

I don't recall it saying that at all, in fact I went so far as to check in regard to that with the print copy before linking to those articles (they originated here from me).

If anything it was linked to the F10 M5 piece they did in that issue of Evo and I can't remember any of the pieces having the 'Advisement' banner on them as would be required. Evo have a history of writing gaming pieces, having done so in the past for GT numerous times and last month for Simraceway, none of those was an advertising piece either.

I may be wrong as I don't have the print copy any more, if you do could you scan the piece and post it up.

Also I might add, Chris Harris who did the writing, use a gamepad as oppose to wheel- whilst he a brilliant driver, he's also a brilliant wordsmith.

And using a gamepad and a good writer invalidates his view how?

So essentially it's no different from when Sarrazin comments on FM3, Tanner Foust on GT5P (before he went TG USA) or Milner on SHIFT2 (although none have the verbal skill of "monkey" Harris).

If it wasn't an advertising piece then its quite significantly different.

 

[JDMKING13]

Having recently played a lot of Forza 4 and GT5 in blocks of a week at a time per game, my views are gradually changing as to which sim does what better, as I myself put more time in and begin to understand each game's subtleties better.

One key realisation on my part is just how important it is in Forza not to change down too early. Bad GT5 habits (which I thought I'd unlearned via rFactor but must relearned in the last year or so) of using engine braking and changing down early will dramatically upset most road cars in Forza, but for some reason I wasn't getting the same feel as i did in rFactor so it took me a while to realise my mistake.

As I look at things now, the biggest difference between the two games is how tyres behave on the edge of grip. This is an area where GT5 does offer more nuance than you might think at first glance, but still seems to have a kind of "penalty" implemented where tyres won't regain grip for far longer than I've experienced in any other race sim once you go over the limit. Then again, if you drive smoothly and look after your tyres (to avoid them overheating, I.e. so that the indicator stays light blue instead of going more white in colour) you simply don't encounter this "penalty" situation.

What GT5 definitely does better is letting you feel track surface undulations and detail through the FFB. On the other hand, Forza's use of the rumble motors in the wheel rim to tell you when the tyres are starting to lose grip (as a replacement for the seat of the pants feel) is great.

An interesting question I ask myself is "if I had to pick one of the two, which would it be?": the answer at the moment is GT5 purely for the vastly better Nordschleife track... But next month I could easily change my mind and prefer Forza's better car selection or better tyre model.

One of the best post in this thread. This is how I fell also. I just got done drive my GT3 in FM3 and it was mind blowing.

While GT5 does indeed give you the ability to run traction control at differing levels and that option is absent in FM4, you are not correct in regard to ABS. FM4 allows the brake pressure to be adjusted (and a much great degree that GT5's ABS) which has a major effect on the ABS.

What I'm not sure of at the moment is if FM4 varies the degree of TC across cars or if its set at a single value, mainly because I never run with TC on (in either FM4 or GT5).

In regard to tyres, lap times are one of the worst measures you can use, differing weather conditions and the lack of 'fear' in a sim title are enough to get you around a track quicker than the real world. The level of grip a tyre produces is a much better and more accurate measure to apply and in this regard FM4's stock tyre either have around the right level of grip or actually are a little under (as is described here). While I would welcome a wide range of tyre choices in FM4 I would not give up the far more detailed tyre model that it has.



Could you expand as to why you think this is?

With the ABS I was talking about what Ridox was explaining If we take two cars in my league R35GTR and a R34 GTR and compare the the ABS values the R34 would only be able to run ABS 0 which represents true abs in my league. The R35 would able to run up to ABS 5 to 0 because of the the technology is posses in it's different driving modes. So on a created street track The R35 owners can enjoy the luxury of driving with ABS 5 on during a cruse day. R34 owners have the normal ABS system ( ABS 0) which is Much more of a skilled drivers car In my league. I Understand what you are talking about but we are on different pages.

That' s My bad. When I play FM or GT I try to make it as real as possible which brings me to the next part about the time difference from the game to reality. I truly understand what your saying and you are 100% correct at that. Still I would like to choose lower grade tires as you can do in GT5, but would never trade the tire model FM4 has. Its truly amazing. I just wish they did it like they did with FM1 when we could pick sport tires with different brands that gave you different tire performance. It's just my gaming style in the End Im a realistic freak For example If the car Has manual I will only drive it with clutch etc. Brings out more potential out of the games.

Usually I don't use ABS aid in GT5, but I did try them numerous of times for testing purposes.
A simple test with a GT500 car at Fuji Speedway F corners with varying ABS level.
Car is Honda Raybrig NSX '00 with racing hard, stock everything, BB is constant 10/10

ABS 1
Brake only effective on straight, turning will greatly increase brake distance and the car still won't turn as intended as tire grip is solely used for braking. The car has tendency to easily heat up front tires and under steer when turning while braking into a corner. Turning is still possible while braking albeit only at very low speed.


ABS 5
Brake during turning is possible with less brake force available and tire grip received higher priority than lesser value of ABS. Not much tire grip available for turning compared to higher ABS value. This is the middle ground.

ABS 10
Brake during turning is more effective than any lesser value of ABS, hard braking from high speed during the straight is still the same as ABS 1, but upon entering the clipping point, the car is more responsive to turning and brake force adjusted accordingly to provide more tire grip for turning. Less underster when compared to ABS 1 or 5. Higher value ABS means more effective turning while braking, and the effectiveness applies from higher speed as well.

The differences are only marginal at best, unless the driver has a habit to turn deeply into the apex while still braking hard ( late braker ), then higher ABSvalue , eg ABS 10 is a good choice. Hope that helped you out a bit, but it's best to try it yourself, cheers.

I did all testing by applying full brake force - 100% all the way and no easing off.

Amazing did the same test however your explanation is 100 times better than what I could of did. 👍

 

[ItsHim]

In regard to tyres, lap times are one of the worst measures you can use, differing weather conditions and the lack of 'fear' in a sim title are enough to get you around a track quicker than the real world.

I can't really agree that "lack of fear" would swing lap times either way and I'm not aware of any studies or experiments that would allow for drawing such a conclusion.

Indeed I would feel a lot more comfortable doing 160 km/h on the GP course of the Nürburgring, which I unfortunately never did so far, than I do when I approach a train of lorries on the Autobahn.

The TGTT being another example. There's always the exception to the rule, but on these two tracks the chances of writing off the car, let alone putting ones life in more danger than on public roads, is virtually none.

The excitement factor is very high for me in playing a game. Whether its an online race I'm leading, I'm down 0.5 seconds on a Nurburgring TT, or being in the last lap of an 4 hour endurance race I staged so that the runner up is less than 20 seconds behind me.

 

[Scaff]

I can't really agree that "lack of fear" would swing lap times either way and I'm not aware of any studies or experiments that would allow for drawing such a conclusion.

Well scientific study of sim racing is not exactly prolific however numerous articles on comparisons mention it, in fact its the single most common trend in them.

The Simraceway piece in a recent copy of Evo (mentioned above) covers it consistently, describing braking later in the sim, taking corners flat out rather than lifting, etc. All because the consequences for failure in a sim are nothing more than a restart, in reality its at best damage to a car and at worst damage to a car and yourself.

Forces acting on the body are also not felt in a sim, the sheer fatigue of high-speed driving and how much of a challenge to remain consistent in every corner.

Add in weather and the effect that has on lap time (temperature and humidity in particular) and also changing track surface conditions such as has the track been resurfaced or is it well rubbered in (the difference between these can be huge in terms of lap times).

Add in all these factors and its should be quite clear that lap-time comparisons are a crude measure at best.

Indeed I would feel a lot more comfortable doing 160 km/h on the GP course of the Nürburgring, which I unfortunately never did so far, than I do when I approach a train of lorries on the Autobahn.

The TGTT being another example. There's always the exception to the rule, but on these two tracks the chances of writing off the car, let alone putting ones life in more danger than on public roads, is virtually none.

Now take that to its logical next step and compare a track to a sim. If you feel more comfortable on a track in comparison to the public road woudl you not then logically feel even more comfortable to push a car when no risk at all was involved (a sim)?

You seem to be saying that you would take exactly the same level of risk on the real 'ring as you would on a virtual 'ring, and that to be blunt I do not believe for a second.

The excitement factor is very high for me in playing a game. Whether its an online race I'm leading, I'm down 0.5 seconds on a Nurburgring TT, or being in the last lap of an 4 hour endurance race I staged so that the runner up is less than 20 seconds behind me.

Once again take that to its next logical step and how would that then be in the real world, when the penalty for a mistake is not just a lost 'virtual' race, but thousands of Euros worth of damage and the risk of injury to yourself and others.

I'm sorry but everything you have said here doesn't counter the effect of 'risk' at all, in fact quite the opposite, it directly supports it.

I've driven on plenty of tracks and proving grounds, the later of which have huge run-off areas, I would still never take the same risks in reality that I would not give a second thought to in a sim.