Forza 4 VS GT5 (read the first post before you contribute)

[buickgnx88]

And t.o., you come off a little fan boyish. Just saying.

A) Please don't be calling people "fanboys", it's just a way of saying "you're saying things I disagree with about the game I enjoy, thus you hate it and think your game is superior"

B) Please use paragraphs, it makes reading so much easier.

 

[slick1ru2]

A) Please don't be calling people "fanboys", it's just a way of saying "you're saying things I disagree with about the game I enjoy, thus you hate it and think your game is superior"

B) Please use paragraphs, it makes reading so much easier.

OK, will passing opinions as facts be more to your liking? Because some of his rational for why he thinks Forza was better at something had little to no fact behind it.

Nothing "unbelievable" about not having night or rain... The 360 isn't a Cray Supercomputer...Offline races are giving some people hell on the Forza's boards...Your "average" player is not gonna to cake walk through Forza 4 on it's most difficult setting...Sorry , but when it comes to sound there isn't even an argument. Forza just kills in every way possible... After the "wow" factor of a new game wore off I just started to see what the game really was , then gave it even more time, and it just couldn't hold up to me...One thing you said is false with FM4's A.I. is that "they" ram in the back of you. "They" don't do that.

You can't be a complete racing game without night racing or weather. American Le Mans Series, FMS racing partner, has Daytona and Petite Le Mans endurance races that run after dark. Shift 2, a 30 fps game looks AWESOME on the XBOX during night races.

The average player isn't going to set the game at its hardest setting and use the least suitable car. And I never said they would. In GT5, an average player can use the easiest settings and the best suited car, and even be a much better than average driver, and still not be able to win certain races, events or series. For instance, I know of nothing in FM4 that compares to how hard it is to win the Formula Gran Turismo racing series.

Talk to any racer. Inside the cockpit, sitting virtually on the transmission, you hear transmission whine. In Forza, cars sound great, but there is no difference in cabin sound to what is heard outside the car. Look at videos of how they recorded sounds. They popped the hood and recorded over the engine and at the tail pipe, where the engine sounds the best. Well, I don't sit on the engine nor on the tail pipe while racing. And another thing. With GT5, you change the muffler or headers, you get a noticeable difference in sound signature. Haven't seen that in FM4. So yeah, to the uneducated masses, FM4 sounds great. But its the sound you hear standing outside the car with the hood up, at the front wheel well, not in the driver's seat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY5o1PGGQdU

Well, not everyone is attracted to the same things. Some like more challenges. Ones where putting the car on the easy setting still means a loss.


I've been rammed several times by A.I. cars and knocked off the track in corners as well as being boxed in and driven off the road.

 

[t.o.]

OK, will passing opinions as facts be more to your liking? Because some of his rational for why he thinks Forza was better at something had little to no fact behind it.

YET......

You can't be a complete racing game without night racing or weather. American Le Mans Series, FMS racing partner, has Daytona and Petite Le Mans endurance races that run after dark. Shift 2, a 30 fps game looks AWESOME on the XBOX during night races.

Just check the encyclopedia of the whole wide world and didn't see anything that says a complete racing game isn't one without night or weather racing. Seems like your passing off an opinion as a fact.

Was just addressing the points you made. I didn't state anything as fact that isn't. But, seriously EVERYONE and their mother can see where you're coming from. I'm done here.

 

[Wolfe]

We all leak opinions into arguments. If it wasn't for opinions, we wouldn't have arguments. The best thing we can do is be civil about it.

Also, on the topic of audio recording, I would expect the best results from recording from the source, given the in-game camera could be just about anywhere. Maybe FM4 could do more to modify the acoustics of an in-cabin view, but sounds recorded in-cabin would be worthless for replay cameras, for example. It'd be a special extra for the interior view only, and I guess T10 decided that wasn't worth it.

 

[imported_FuzzyFassbender]

Project C.A.R.S. is coming to all consoles per a Tweet I got from them on the subject...

C.A.R.S. is a LONG LONG LONG way from making it to the consoles. Heck, it is a LONG way from close to complete on the PC. And I doubt it will resemble the PC version - IF it truly makes it to the consoles at all. The last Slightly Mad game (S2U) was a mess, especially on the PS3. Maybe they will be successful with more horsepower of the next gen consoles.
But... I am happy to see something in the works.

OK, will passing opinions as facts be more to your liking? Because some of his rational for why he thinks Forza was better at something had little to no fact behind it.
...

Hmm, to me T.O.'s post was not any more opinionated that yours. If you prefer some features of GT that's fine, we all look at things differently, but your comments are somewhat hypocritical

 

[slick1ru2]

YET......




Just check the encyclopedia of the whole wide world and didn't see anything that says a complete racing game isn't one without night or weather racing. Seems like your passing off an opinion as a fact.

Was just addressing the points you made. I didn't state anything as fact that isn't. But, seriously EVERYONE and their mother can see where you're coming from. I'm done here.

A complete ALMS partner should include the conditions they race in, shouldn't they?

If GT5 was the the ILMS partner and didn't have 24 hour racing and weather changes at Sarthe what would you say? Oh, the 24 hours of Le Mans, who needs it? Really? N24, who needs to run Nurburgring at night?

 

[Terronium-12]

Are you completely ignoring the reason why there is no dynamic day-to-night cycles or variable weather conditions? Whether or not they're an official partner has no bearing on the choices they make for their game. Or would you prefer them to make the same ghastly sacrifices PD made to bring those same features to Forza, a game they're up front about favoring performance over an outright feature list?

 

[slick1ru2]

Are you completely ignoring the reason why there is no dynamic day-to-night cycles or variable weather conditions? Whether or not they're an official partner has no bearing on the choices they make for their game. Or would you prefer them to make the same ghastly sacrifices PD made to bring those same features to Forza, a game they're up front about favoring performance over an outright feature list?

What?

And the reason was they didn't want to drop from 60 fps. That was the reason. they gave. I think that weather and night racing is worth a slight dip in fps.

C.A.R.S. is a LONG LONG LONG way from making it to the consoles. Heck, it is a LONG way from close to complete on the PC. And I doubt it will resemble the PC version - IF it truly makes it to the consoles at all. The last Slightly Mad game (S2U) was a mess, especially on the PS3. Maybe they will be successful with more horsepower of the next gen consoles.
But... I am happy to see something in the works.

First off, S2U came out not that long ago. Have you seen the progress made since then? They release a new build...weekly and are like on build #94 or something. It should be close to the PC. No console game of this generation is going to look as good as the PC. But the feature list, including digitally scanned tracks accurate to 2mm should make it into the game. And you seem to know a lot, but you don't seem to know that S2U was a mess because of EA's heavy hand. They screwed the game up and had control over everything SMS was doing, even told them what to put in the patch. Its a reason that SMS has gone the current development route.


https://twitter.com/#!/slightlymadteam/status/139652098055868416

@slightlymadteam Slightly Mad Studios
&#8220;@amf7f1: @slightlymadteam is project cars being dumbed down for console.. Please say NO&#8221; <- NO

 

[Terronium-12]

What?

And the reason was they didn't want to drop from 60 fps. That was the reason. they gave. I think that weather and night racing is worth a slight dip in fps.

And they didn't, hence it's exclusion from the game.

Also, don't double post. Use the edit button.

 

[slick1ru2]

And they didn't, hence it's exclusion from the game.

Also, don't double post. Use the edit button.

I don't know anyone that's hard core that wouldn't tolerate a reasonable dip in FPS for adding a whole world of racing to the game.

And when you read a post and it later gets edited, do you get an email notifying you about the edit? Do you go and re-read an entire forum to catch the edits? The little line between my two posts is not the only difference. Those following the thread get a little email, if they so choose that option. I try not to double post, but ask nicely dude and I will make a better effort. Please is the magic word.

 

[Northstar]

A complete ALMS partner should include the conditions they race in, shouldn't they?

If GT5 was the the ILMS partner and didn't have 24 hour racing and weather changes at Sarthe what would you say? Oh, the 24 hours of Le Mans, who needs it? Really? N24, who needs to run Nurburgring at night?

I completely agree, that would be like a game with the WRC license but no point to point stages in the whole game....... oh wait.

Just because they have the license doesn't mean they have to include every aspect. Both games have licenses for real life series, but lack qualifying, practice and basic race flags they actually use in the real series(and that is just the start). It would be nice if they did include every aspect that a series deals with in real life, but I don't see that happening any time soon on consoles or even PC's for that matter.

 

[slick1ru2]

I completely agree, that would be like a game with the WRC license but no point to point stages in the whole game....... oh wait.

Just because they have the license doesn't mean they have to include every aspect. Both games have licenses for real life series, but lack qualifying, practice and basic race flags they actually use in the real series(and that is just the start). It would be nice if they did include every aspect that a series deals with in real life, but I don't see that happening any time soon on consoles or even PC's for that matter.

If you are talking about GT5, you have to know that Sony got tired of waiting and Kaz wanted 2 more years. I think only 1 person on the planet knows what he wanted to ship at completion.

Check out what they are doing for Project C.A.R.S.. Co drivers will be cool. Starting out not in slow cars, but in karts. Choosing a route, open wheel, GT, etc..

 

[Terronium-12]

I don't know anyone that's hard core that wouldn't tolerate a reasonable dip in FPS for adding a whole world of racing to the game.

I refer you to any and every complaint within GT5 regard this very issue.

And that's been going on for, oh, over a year now.

And when you read a post and it later gets edited, do you get an email notifying you about the edit?

Even if I did (which I don't) what does this have to do with anything?

Do you go and re-read an entire forum to catch the edits?

I don't have to.

I try not to double post, but ask nicely dude and I will make a better effort. Please is the magic word.

There is no "ask nicely and I will make a better effort", you either make an effort or you'll find yourself on the receiving end of a warning or an Infraction.

 

[Northstar]

If you are talking about GT5, you have to know that Sony got tired of waiting and Kaz wanted 2 more years. I think only 1 person on the planet knows what he wanted to ship at completion.

The thing is, they at one point had P2P in the game, there are even a couple in the challenges. For whatever reason though they didn't do crap with them outside of that.

^^^Wouldn't need anything else if they left that in the game.

I also really don't see what he could have done in 2 years that couldn't have been squeezed into the 5 he had. You can say there were other projects, but other than GTPSP they really didn't need to be doing all the other crap.

 

[slick1ru2]

The thing is, they at one point had P2P in the game, there are even a couple in the challenges. For whatever reason though they didn't do crap with them outside of that.

^^^Wouldn't need anything else if they left that in the game.

I also really don't see what he could have done in 2 years that couldn't have been squeezed into the 5 he had. You can say there were other projects, but other than GTPSP they really didn't need to be doing all the other crap.

I think a large part of that time was taken on trying to get the cars to look as good as they could, given the memory limitations of the PS3. Sure, gated WRC racing P to P would be great, but who knows, it may still come. Kaz is going to keep churning out DLC every couple of months. Remember all those tracks that showed up someone found them hidden, or was it leaked in an interview, like Pike's Peak? Getting a Pike's Peak car in FM this upcoming pack, will FMS get Pike's Peak too? That would be different, road and offroad race up a mountain.

 

[Overdrive003]

I've been a big fan of the Gran Turismo series for a while, I believe that each game has something the other doesn't and does something better then the other, etc.,

Personally I prefer GT5 noise while I like Forza's tuning. Same goes with, most of, the car selection. Yes GT5 has pointless cars like the Honda Z-act (Is that right?) but they're silly cars and quite a lot of fun to race around the 'Ring at 1 AM.

Night and weather. GT5 has it, doesn't have as good of FP/S as Forza 4 BUT GT5 does do an incredible job with it. Forza will probably not have that feature.

With the cars, GT5 has open wheel cars yet Forza doesn't. Why? Because Turn 10 said they don't have a good enough physics engine. What? If P.D. has F1 and LMP cars, and the physics are great, why doesn't Forza? Good question....

As far as modeling goes, I think Forza did a better job with everything BUT the interior. Gran Turismo has a far better interior modeling. I was in photomode with a Ferrari California (Which you can drive with the roof down in GT5) and I noticed that P.D. did the stitching in the seats while Turn 10 didn't..I'm fearing they spent all they're money on lighting and the Alps track...

Also, please note that I'm a fan of both series.
I know, awesome review which I probably missed over 100 things. As well with being very off topic about whatever is being discussed about Point-to-point racing or something like that. XD

 

[slick1ru2]

I've been a big fan of the Gran Turismo series for a while, I believe that each game has something the other doesn't and does something better then the other, etc.,

Personally I prefer GT5 noise while I like Forza's tuning. Same goes with, most of, the car selection. Yes GT5 has pointless cars like the Honda Z-act (Is that right?) but they're silly cars and quite a lot of fun to race around the 'Ring at 1 AM.

Night and weather. GT5 has it, doesn't have as good of FP/S as Forza 4 BUT GT5 does do an incredible job with it. Forza will probably not have that feature.

With the cars, GT5 has open wheel cars yet Forza doesn't. Why? Because Turn 10 said they don't have a good enough physics engine. What? If P.D. has F1 and LMP cars, and the physics are great, why doesn't Forza? Good question....

As far as modeling goes, I think Forza did a better job with everything BUT the interior. Gran Turismo has a far better interior modeling. I was in photomode with a Ferrari California (Which you can drive with the roof down in GT5) and I noticed that P.D. did the stitching in the seats while Turn 10 didn't..I'm fearing they spent all they're money on lighting and the Alps track...

Also, please note that I'm a fan of both series.
I know, awesome review which I probably missed over 100 things. As well with being very off topic about whatever is being discussed about Point-to-point racing or something like that. XD

I pretty much agree with all of this post. I enjoy both enough to not be able to say one is better than the other overall.

 

[Scaff]

Night and weather. GT5 has it, doesn't have as good of FP/S as Forza 4 BUT GT5 does do an incredible job with it. Forza will probably not have that feature.

It would be great for FM to have night and weather, but I for one would not want the frame rate drops that GT5 has to get them.

With the cars, GT5 has open wheel cars yet Forza doesn't. Why? Because Turn 10 said they don't have a good enough physics engine. What? If P.D. has F1 and LMP cars, and the physics are great, why doesn't Forza? Good question....

Its nothing to do with the physics engine (which I happen to think is better in FM4), it has to do with the 'visual' modelling of individual suspension components, which FM4 doesn't do on any of its current models.

Keep in mind that you don't have to visually model something to have it working in the physics engine.

As far as modeling goes, I think Forza did a better job with everything BUT the interior. Gran Turismo has a far better interior modeling. I was in photomode with a Ferrari California (Which you can drive with the roof down in GT5) and I noticed that P.D. did the stitching in the seats while Turn 10 didn't..I'm fearing they spent all they're money on lighting and the Alps track...

Personally I'd rather have better lighting and a new track that stitching, and while I am more than happy to agree that the premium models in GT5 are indeed stunning (and better than FM4s) all the stitching in the world doesn't stop the standard cars from having no interior modelling (apart from a few open cars and a black mask for the rest).


Overall its down to what is a priority for each individual, for me GT5 has been disappointing, even the DLC has been a mixed bag (tracks are great, but apart from the new karts the cars were disappointing).


Scaff

 

[BarronGeddon]

[DELETED]

 

[Scaff]

I guess this is a VS thread so what to expect right? But seriously you don't listen exclusively to one album for the whole year do you? You change your picks depending on what you feel like - so do the same with your games!

No you don't, and most people do still play both


However just like albums, people are going to talk about them; as an analogy I've loved every Muse album apart from the last (which I found a little disappointing), same with GT.

End result people (who are still fans) are going to discuss and part of that discussion will involve comparisons to other bands/games, etc.


Scaff

 

[BarronGeddon]

[DELETED]

 

[Scaff]

Yes but would you ever see a Muse Vs Snow Patrol thread.

Hang around guitar forums and you will see that and a hell of a lot more, trust me Forza vs GT has nothing (and I mean nothing) on Fender vs Gibson discussions (and on that one I sit in neither camp).

And if so, would you consider it entirely necessary?

Sorry for the off topic.

100% necessary, this is after all a forum and without discussions we would have no reason to be.



Scaff

 

[BarronGeddon]

[DELETED]

 

[slick1ru2]

Fair points. But are they really discussions? I see lots of opinion and biased argument, no doubt running for 50+ pages on such threads. But rarely - a reasoned discussion, or especially a changed perception.

But yes, this is a forum I suppose. So I'll stop de-railing this thread anymore.

You can't have any type of discussion without opinion. One's reasoning leads to the opinion. You can agree with it or not. Everyone has an opinion and is naturally biased toward it since they formed it through some type of reasoning. If you see a compelling enough argument, it may sway what you think.

I have yet to see a compelling argument that GT5 or FMS is clearly better than the other. The both have areas where they do well and areas they are lacking. So my bias is toward being unbiased, overall, toward either. My pointing out what one does well and the other doesn't seems to not sit well with fans of the one I think isn't up to snuff. For all intents and purposes, that appears to be biased, when points many see as lacking are either dismissed, downplayed or made excuses for. If some feature like night diving or weather causes frame rate issues, don't play those courses. Simple solution for those of us that want realistic conditions.

 

[BarronGeddon]

[DELETED]

 

[Vaxxtx]

You can't have any type of discussion without opinion. One's reasoning leads to the opinion. You can agree with it or not. Everyone has an opinion and is naturally biased toward it since they formed it through some type of reasoning. If you see a compelling enough argument, it may sway what you think.

I have yet to see a compelling argument that GT5 or FMS is clearly better than the other. The both have areas where they do well and areas they are lacking. So my bias is toward being unbiased, overall, toward either. My pointing out what one does well and the other doesn't seems to not sit well with fans of the one I think isn't up to snuff. For all intents and purposes, that appears to be biased, when points many see as lacking are either dismissed, downplayed or made excuses for. If some feature like night diving or weather causes frame rate issues, don't play those courses. Simple solution for those of us that want realistic conditions.

Because you dont share the same mindset as every other person that plays these two games.

I think GT5 is one of the worst excuses for a game in this genre. I think FM4 is the best so far. I am biased towards Forza. I couldnt care less if someone likes GT5 over Forza though. I dont care if someone loves to play both. I know what I like and thats what is important.

I do like to see the points and couter points though. I find them entertaining. I do find more interesting "streching" from the GT5 camp though. Like someone posted above about the interiors being superior in GT5. Looking at the whole picture, (i.e. taking all cars into account) that statement can be dismissed. But I see what that person is saying if you only take into account premium cars.

 

[ChromeBallz]

From the perspective of someone who has both games:

GT5 has the 'better' graphics, FM4 has the 'prettier' ones. GT5 is more realistic looking, the tracks look more like their real life counterparts (especially the 'ring), the premium cars are more detailed (even autovista comes a hair short of GT5's premium cars). GT5 does score a minus point with the standard cars which should not have been in the game at all in this state, imho, it makes the game look very inconsistent at times.

The UI is much more streamlined in FM4 and much more responsive. Clear win there. While the GT5 UI has its charms, especially for non-fans of the series it's simply not good enough and even for fans (i got the signature edition) it just is a bit... odd. I vastly preferred GT4's "charming" menu style, or even GT2's.

The driving feel is a toss-up between both. GT5 has the slightly "weightier" feel, especially when using the controller as it has rumble, this is aided by the more pronounced weight transfer visually. FM4 has the better tyre feel, despite not having rumble, the audio cues are far better. However, both games are very nice to play, the differences are just differences, not in favor of one or the other. Overall i would have to put GT5 just a tad ahead in physics though, as far as i can tell, but this is a detail that only the hardcore players would notice.

The game structure is again a clear win for FM4. While still not perfect it's miles ahead of GT5's incredibly grindy structure. The special events however in GT5 are well done for the most part, and it does offer some extra little things that FM4 seems to lack (licenses), aswell as off-road racing events and the track editor. They do contribute to the game's (GT5's) schizophrenic nature though, FM4 feels like the more polished *game*.


The car lists are nearly equal. GT5 has a massive roster, though there's a heavy bias towards Japanese cars and only 200 or so are premium cars. FM4 has less total cars but they're more consistent, all featuring cockpits and it's a selection from all over the world with less 'duplicate' cars (40 variations of the R34 is just too much). FM4 has the slight edge here because of this.

The tracklist is a fighting point for both, though FM4 has a heavy emphasis on US tracks. GT5's fictional tracks are somewhat better designed, the tracks themselves resemble their RL counterparts better aswell. Both games have about the same amount of variation. FM4's tracks have nicer scenery, but especially the 'Ring just doesn't feel right since it doesn't really resemble it's RL counterpart. In terms of track surfaces, GT5 has the ever so slight edge by modelling bumps etc a little better. I'd give this to GT5, if ever so slightly.

Online is a clean sweep for FM4, no question, same with customization.

AI is a little iffy for both as far as i can see.



GT5 is a schizophrenic but obsessed and passionate driving game.
FM4 is a smooth and polished racing game.


At this point... I can honestly not say i prefer one over the other, i'd rather have both. Both have their great moments, both have their little nags, but together they're pretty damn good.

 

[slick1ru2]

Because you dont share the same mindset as every other person that plays these two games.

I think GT5 is one of the worst excuses for a game in this genre. I think FM4 is the best so far. I am biased towards Forza. I couldnt care less if someone likes GT5 over Forza though. I dont care if someone loves to play both. I know what I like and thats what is important.

I do like to see the points and couter points though. I find them entertaining. I do find more interesting "streching" from the GT5 camp though. Like someone posted above about the interiors being superior in GT5. Looking at the whole picture, (i.e. taking all cars into account) that statement can be dismissed. But I see what that person is saying if you only take into account premium cars.

No one shares the same mindset. And for every Forza fanboy, err, enthusiast, there is one just as biased toward GT5. Both are a dime a dozen.

 

[t.o.]

I don't know anyone that's hard core that wouldn't tolerate a reasonable dip in FPS for adding a whole world of racing to the game.

I know I said I was out of this but THIS line here.... oh boy. AT NO POINT do I want my framerate dropping for ANY reason in my racing games. If they're gonna have a "reasonable dip" in frame rate it better be for a damn good reason and weather/night ain't it. The last thing I want while going 3 wide on the huge sweeper at Road America is frames dropping. It could be the difference between a great moment and everyone piled up in a massive heap of red indicators of damage everywhere. Trying to fit 10 pounds of baloney in a 5 pound bag you don't need any slip ups while attempting it.

 

[slick1ru2]

From the perspective of someone who has both games:

GT5 has the 'better' graphics, FM4 has the 'prettier' ones. GT5 is more realistic looking, the tracks look more like their real life counterparts (especially the 'ring), the premium cars are more detailed (even autovista comes a hair short of GT5's premium cars). GT5 does score a minus point with the standard cars which should not have been in the game at all in this state, imho, it makes the game look very inconsistent at times.

The UI is much more streamlined in FM4 and much more responsive. Clear win there. While the GT5 UI has its charms, especially for non-fans of the series it's simply not good enough and even for fans (i got the signature edition) it just is a bit... odd. I vastly preferred GT4's "charming" menu style, or even GT2's.

The driving feel is a toss-up between both. GT5 has the slightly "weightier" feel, especially when using the controller as it has rumble, this is aided by the more pronounced weight transfer visually. FM4 has the better tyre feel, despite not having rumble, the audio cues are far better. However, both games are very nice to play, the differences are just differences, not in favor of one or the other. Overall i would have to put GT5 just a tad ahead in physics though, as far as i can tell, but this is a detail that only the hardcore players would notice.

The game structure is again a clear win for FM4. While still not perfect it's miles ahead of GT5's incredibly grindy structure. The special events however in GT5 are well done for the most part, and it does offer some extra little things that FM4 seems to lack (licenses), aswell as off-road racing events and the track editor. They do contribute to the game's (GT5's) schizophrenic nature though, FM4 feels like the more polished *game*.


The car lists are nearly equal. GT5 has a massive roster, though there's a heavy bias towards Japanese cars and only 200 or so are premium cars. FM4 has less total cars but they're more consistent, all featuring cockpits and it's a selection from all over the world with less 'duplicate' cars (40 variations of the R34 is just too much). FM4 has the slight edge here because of this.

The tracklist is a fighting point for both, though FM4 has a heavy emphasis on US tracks. GT5's fictional tracks are somewhat better designed, the tracks themselves resemble their RL counterparts better aswell. Both games have about the same amount of variation. FM4's tracks have nicer scenery, but especially the 'Ring just doesn't feel right since it doesn't really resemble it's RL counterpart. In terms of track surfaces, GT5 has the ever so slight edge by modelling bumps etc a little better. I'd give this to GT5, if ever so slightly.

Online is a clean sweep for FM4, no question, same with customization.

AI is a little iffy for both as far as i can see.



GT5 is a schizophrenic but obsessed and passionate driving game.
FM4 is a smooth and polished racing game.


At this point... I can honestly not say i prefer one over the other, i'd rather have both. Both have their great moments, both have their little nags, but together they're pretty damn good.

I'd say that is pretty fair assessment. I do like some aspects of GT5 online racing. You can practice and get a pole position. You can explore. You can vote on any map. And now you can set how wet the track is. But for the actual race aspect I do seem to prefer FMS at the moment.

GT5 has had a year of freebees too. I guess Kaz felt guilty for releasing years before he was ready due to Sony getting fed up of the delays. New features, free cars, weekly updated events, etc.. More so than any game I have owned, GT5 over the past year has given out more free improvements and content.

I know I said I was out of this but THIS line here.... oh boy. AT NO POINT do I want my framerate dropping for ANY reason in my racing games. If they're gonna have a "reasonable dip" in frame rate it better be for a damn good reason and weather/night ain't it. The last thing I want while going 3 wide on the huge sweeper at Road America is frames dropping. It could be the difference between a great moment and everyone piled up in a massive heap of red indicators of damage everywhere. Trying to fit 10 pounds of baloney in a 5 pound bag you don't need any slip ups while attempting it.

Being that there are racing games that look great at half the 60 fps and you would only experience any dip ON NIGHT and WEATHER races, you have no reason to complain. ONLY those night and weather tracks the rate would dip, you could easily avoid them the way the game is set up. Those of us that want realism would get what we want, those of you who think it matters could avoid those races. Problem solved and EVERYONE is happy. And your scenario make no sense at all. I could see it being an issue if the game was 30fps, but its double that.