Forza 4 VS GT5 (read the first post before you contribute)

  • Thread starter Thread starter hennessey86
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Okay i just watched all availible videos about fm4 787b.
And my conclusion is it doenst even remotly sound like the real deal, especially compared with the johny herbert le mans lap, i can not hear 1 simulatity in the sound department, except for the idle sound(wich isnt really hard to to, even gt5 has it ;) )
But im missing the main characteristics in the sound, what a real 787b develops.
Maybe its because its youtube, and im on laptop speakers.
But i get goosebumps every time i listen to a real 787b on youtube(same laptop speakers) but in fm4 it does nothing for me.
Hopefully i will change my mind this tuesday, but i think not.
In gt5 the car sounds really really good, i have a turtlebeach x41 and connect it too both consoles, so its an even battle ;)
 
nismo, Youtube videos do not do the car in FM4 any justice. You have to witness the car in-game first hand to appreciate the noise. And in my opinion, it sounds a lot more better than the 787B in GT5.
 
Okay i'm hoping you are right. Because with the videos i wasnt getting exited.
I got my turtlebeach ready soo bring it!! ;)
Also how does the s1 sound ?? anywhere near the real deal ??
That thing (also only saw it on youtube) sounds like a maniac!!
I really hate that im to young to have seen 787b and group b, group b sport cars, group c etc in action :( im 24 years old, and was like 4 or 5 in those glory days :(
And that i'm from holland also doesn't help :P
 
That video had one of the worst microphone recordings I've heard.

Of course it did.

SatansReverence
Don't worry, I get what your problem is.

The GT5 crowd cling on to the 787B because for them, it's the only decent sounding car in the entire game.

Now Forza has the same car and it's engine sound is many times better and more realistic.

And all that update did was increase the levels of bass and doing that doesn't make the terrible sound samples any better.

*edit*

The only things GT5 seemed to get right with the 787B is the lumpy idle and the low speed neutral throttle garble the car has but they decided it was a great idea to put that garble across the entire rev range which simply isn't right.


If you want to know my stance on the GT5 vs FM4 debate, go look back a few pages. Its one of the ONLY un-biased opinions in this thread. Try again. ;) Also, when did I EVER say the FM4 was WORSE than GT5 sound wise in ANY instance. Please find and quote.

Also, that post I made (the one you quoted) had nothing to do with FM4 vs GT5. I was saying that in general, while GT5's sounds are bad, there are some exceptions. If you actually READ my post, you would understand that.
 
The sound of the 787B does sound good in GT5 at Idle but it lacks the loud wind. In GT5 it just sounds like a Supercharger. I will also say the GT5 version is jumpy which is like it should be.
 
FM4 (at speed):


What T10 have done a brilliant job at I must say was producing that amazing exhaust sound as the 787B flies by in the replay. Check 0:22 or 0:51, AMAZING!. The echo it makes is spectacular. In GT5, when it flies by in replays, the exhaust sound actually decreases which is not what it sounds like IRL.
 
Personally, the 7B7B in both games is just TOO loud for me. It's just grating on the ears. It's amazing, yes, but damn that thing will give you hearing damage.

Maybe my mind will change once I actually get the pack, I dunno.
 
If you want to know my stance on the GT5 vs FM4 debate, go look back a few pages. Its one of the ONLY un-biased opinions in this thread. Try again. ;)
You are inherently biased regarding the bias of your own post...you can't claim unbias, only make a case for it (eg. "I play both GT5 and FM4 every day").

Personally, the 7B7B in both games is just TOO loud for me. It's just grating on the ears. It's amazing, yes, but damn that thing will give you hearing damage.

Maybe my mind will change once I actually get the pack, I dunno.
Your TV/computer speakers are still easier on the ears than standing next to the real thing. ;)

Also there's an "audio focus" option in FM4, if you didn't know. You can set it to "tires" to soften the engine volume a little.
 
Your TV/computer speakers are still easier on the ears than standing next to the real thing. ;)

The real thing in person blasting past is absolutely unreal. I feel very lucky to have heard and seen it for real.
 
You are inherently biased regarding the bias of your own post...you can't claim unbias, only make a case for it (eg. "I play both GT5 and FM4 every day").

You can claim unbias. I am unbiased between the two. I enjoy both games to the same degree, and I do not favor one or the other overall. Now I have my OPINIONS about both games, but please don't confuse opinion with bias.
 
Come on.....just listen to it....even from a bad recording on youtube...this thing sounds evil in forza as in real life....in GT5 it sounds like an angry CASIO 808..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSya9Yc3_Kc&feature=player_embedded

Awful awful awful sound.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yPFeDaTNrY&feature=related

Gotta love the comments:

" lol, if you can find one forza 4 gameplay at night, with rain, with a 787b, ohh wait it does not have anything from that haha, good luck"

Oh wait.

It has one of those.

And it did it a hell of a lot better than GT5 did.
 
You can claim unbias. I am unbiased between the two. I enjoy both games to the same degree, and I do not favor one or the other overall. Now I have my OPINIONS about both games, but please don't confuse opinion with bias.

I think you're missing what Wolfe is saying - we're all more likely to view our own opinions as "unbiased", but the fact is, all of us have some bias, in some form. It's only natural.

The nice advantage, at least around here, is that at least we're all fairly well informed on all sides :)
 
Bet you can't. Now show some proof that you can. Back up your claims that they don't use engines to get their samples, because you have no proof. It's unsubstantiated opinion, and not fact.
Your quite right, and as you have been doing a perfectly good job of countering that I have had no need to get involved.



Funny how Scaff isn't hopping on this unlike with the Forza claims/exaggerations.
This however is not a smart way of addressing it.

If you feel a post is breaking the AUP then use the report button or PM a mod, don't however publicly accuse a member of staff of ignoring it as they are biased.

Now to be clear its not being accused of bias I have an issue with (and I will come back to this in a minute), its that I have ignored my job. The staff do not have time to read every post in every thread, that's why the report button exists. So I would strongly advise thinking a little more in future before making accusations of that nature again.

Now in regard to bias, I have to say that I find your claim to be unbiased more than a little unrealistic. Every person on the planet (bar a few with specific conditions) carries an inherent bias on any topic. That's simply the way we are programmed, and I must confess to being very wary of anyone who opens a statement with something along the lines of 'I'm not biased, but.....'.

Simply put everyone is biased, which then only leaves those who are aware of the bias' they carry and acknowledge them (as I and Slip have done in countless posts both here and on GT Planet) and those who hide them or are unaware of them.

You quite clearly have a bias for GT5, that's not a problem I have a bias for FM4 (and the 4 is important), the problem is that you don't acknowledge it. That denial of something that is quite clear to just about everyone here, actually hampers your ability to get your point across.

Now my input on the whole sound thing, taken as a whole FM4 wins this one for me, that's not however to say its perfect.

FM4 has improved the soundstage and placement significantly from previous releases (in which it may well have not existed at times) and toned down some of the more aggressive sounding smaller cars.

GT5 also improved things, the issue was that you first needed a good AV system to take advantage of it, as the compression on non LPCM audio is plain nasty to my ears. Listen to GT5 through a good AV and then through a flat-screen built in speakers and it is a totally different experience. More of a difference that should be.

Now an example of the difference between the two titles would be the Cobra SC I've used a lot for testing. At idle and a second gear pull away I have to say that GT5 gets this one, it sounds stunning, however in a title with 99.9% rolling starts you never get to hear it. The same car in GT5 at higher revs sounds nothing at all like the real deal, and almost sounds as if it was recorded with no actual load on the engine.

So yes you are quite right that at time GT5 does get it right, however like so much of the title for me, its only a small quantity of what is a massive majority of poor sounding cars and massively re-used sounds.


Scaff
 
@Redsunit

"I am the most unbiased person on this site!! And as such I say GT5 is the better game!"

hilarious........ :lol:

I don't recall doing that. Please show me where I said GT5 was better. Because I am pretty sure I haven't. Anywhere. My opinions is pretty doggon near close to unbiased, and I look forward to any of you actually showing where I have made statements that prove the opposite of that claim. Including where Scaff has said "You quite clearly have a bias for GT5,". I would love to see the posts that support your argument.
 
Including where Scaff has said "You quite clearly have a bias for GT5,". I would love to see the posts that support your argument.

I have no intention of quoting every post I feel supports my opinion on this, however in pretty much any FM vs GT post you comment on you will tend to favour GT.

I'm not saying you are rabidly biased in any direction (in fact I would say you are less biased towards GT than I am to FM), what I am however saying (and was the main crux of my point) is that no one is un-biased, which was the claim you made about yourself.


Scaff
 
Point I was making REDSUNIT, is this.

I am biased towards Forza 4 cause i prefer it, i play it more than GT5 and feel its as a whole a stunning piece of gaming.

Its pretty pointless being on here trying to prove unbias especially when you take the side of GT5 over Forza.....hence your not unbiased...

Just say which you prefer and leave it as that. See the added "im the most unbiased person on here" is a false statement that is misleading.....

That is all.....
 
HBK
Actually, "false implicates true". You can obtain perfectly correct results with false reasoning and erroneous data.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_logic
True, but not applicable in this context, which I described in the next sentence:
I don't think any sliding-box-based simulator will ever produce a truly natural-feeling driving experience.
I personally don't believe a simplistic model with a load of checks and balances and algorithms to approximate reality will ever be as transparently convincing as a proper, unbounded physics engine built upon simulated kinetics/mechanics. You gotta start from the right foundation.

There's a difference between dictating what a car should do in response to various inputs, and allowing it to respond to inputs based on the mechanics involved. The former means "press right trigger to accelerate." The latter means "press right trigger to open the throttle, allowing the engine to increase RPM if possible, applying a torque load (multiplied by the ratios of the drivetrain) to the differential, etc. etc..."

For example, you can tell Gran Turismo dictates, because when you slam the throttle in a RWD car from a dead stop, the car simply rolls forward with its wheels spinning. Perfectly straight. The game only knows that "wheelspin = smoke, noise, and you don't accelerate as fast." It doesn't consider the effect of one drivewheel spinning faster than the other, because PD forgot to "tell it" what to do about that.
 
True, but not applicable in this context ...

I personally don't believe a simplistic model with a load of checks and balances and algorithms to approximate reality will ever be as transparently convincing as a proper, unbounded physics engine built upon simulated kinetics/mechanics. You gotta start from the right foundation.

There's a difference between dictating what a car should do in response to various inputs, and allowing it to respond to inputs based on the mechanics involved. The former means "press right trigger to accelerate." The latter means "press right trigger to open the throttle, allowing the engine to increase RPM if possible, applying a torque load (multiplied by the ratios of the drivetrain) to the differential, etc. etc..."

For example, you can tell Gran Turismo dictates, because when you slam the throttle in a RWD car from a dead stop, the car simply rolls forward with its wheels spinning. Perfectly straight. The game only knows that "wheelspin = smoke, noise, and you don't accelerate as fast." It doesn't consider the effect of one drivewheel spinning faster than the other, because PD forgot to "tell it" what to do about that.
As much as I agree with what you say about GT's physics engine feeling, I must disagree about the "you gotta start from the right foundation" part.

I've always had the feeling that the physics engine behind the GT games were simplisitc, maybe because I've been working in the matter of scientific simulation for nearly 10 years, who knows. Still, the end result *is* pretty good. I'm not saying perfect, and I'm not saying better than FM4 (I think FM4 is superior to GT in pretty much every aspect of the physics engine). But the end result of GT5's physics engine is still surprisingly good.
 
Anywhere. My opinions is pretty doggon near close to unbiased
Now, my opinion is 100% unbiased. GT5 is the worse game. That's the 100% purely objective conclusion I've come to.

So, we now have two unbiased opinions that contradict each other... What now? :scared:

Now, I obviously do know and am fully aware of my own bias and the fact that basically all my decisions are objective. The point I'm trying to make is simple, though: My claim to being unbiased is just as factual as yours - namely, it's not factual at all. Just your own, again, biased opinion.
 
HBK
But the end result of GT5's physics engine is still surprisingly good.

Surprisingly good, despite the bass-ackwards way it goes about stuff.

Unfortunately, as it progresses it will hit a point where it's underlying flaws drag it down so much that it's unable to keep up. It's bandaid fixes, they've been patching up the flaws in the original GT1 style engine instead of addressing the real problems.

Frankly, I think we're starting to see it. Witness the continuing lack of telemetry because there's no functional model of the parts to draw numbers to display. I'm not sure how much more they're able to do without a rebuild from the basics. Without that, GT6 is likely to be more of the same.
 
Unfortunately, as it progresses it will hit a point where it's underlying flaws drag it down so much that it's unable to keep up. It's bandaid fixes, they've been patching up the flaws in the original GT1 style engine instead of addressing the real problems.
Yup, agreed.

But as long as it works and, well, as long as it sells, a major overhaul is unlikely.

But then again, who knows ? We may be pleasantly surprised in the future. It's obvious GT6 will only be a rehash of GT5 if it's released on the PS3 in the coming years, as expected. But a GT7 ? Who knows ...
 
HBK
But the end result of GT5's physics engine is still surprisingly good.
Don't get me wrong, I think GT5 drives fine (mostly). But it doesn't feel natural at all. It's stiff, wobbly, and sterile. And it's only impressive in the wake of GT4, which I think was a big fat step backwards from GT3 in terms of handling dynamics.

Now, FM4 does feel a lot better. The tire model is great, and from the Telemetry we can see several good things going on behind the scenes -- forces acting independently at each wheel, for example -- BUT the immersion is still limited, at least for me. The mechanics of the car are there, the tire model is fine, but the kinetics at the core of the engine are lacking. It doesn't feel "loose" enough, and I've had to train myself to predict how cars will behave in the game. The limited lift-off oversteer effect plays havoc with my driving style.

Forza just feels "flat" and a bit too hovercraft-like. It's a very good game, but I never feel much of a connection with the car.

It's bandaid fixes, they've been patching up the flaws in the original GT1 style engine instead of addressing the real problems.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks they've been hobbling that model along.

HBK
It's obvious GT6 will only be a rehash of GT5 if it's released on the PS3 in the coming years, as expected. But a GT7 ? Who knows ...
To be honest, I think it would only be appropriate for GT6 to repackage GT5 and deliver on some of its failed promises. And maybe they could get it done within the next 10 years. :dopey:
 
To be honest, I think it would only be appropriate for GT6 to repackage GT5 and deliver on some of its failed promises. And maybe they could get it done within the next 10 years. :dopey:
Dunno.

I think they should trash it all together and rebuilt pretty much everything from scratch.

Even the graphics engine for all its photorealism is pretty much stuck in the past. Why do you think day/night transition tracks are listed as separate tracks ? Because for the game, they *are* separate tracks, with specifically built assets. Makes no sense, really.

No, GT5 feels like an over-boosted GT1, and while it can still deliver on some aspects, PD really need to update most of their engines (graphics, physics, sound, loading/streaming, and so forth).

And just to be clear, if Forza 5 is just an over-boosted Forza 1 (which is pretty much what Forza 4 is now), it will begin to show as well. It's just that the basis of Forza 1 is more recent (obviously), so it doesn't show as much (and Turn10, while keeping most of the basics, did do some pretty impressive improvements over the course of the three iterations of their game).
 
Wolfe i'm at a loss as to why you cant get lift off oversteer in Forza 4, i can, can anyone else?

I reckon with all due respect its something up with you not the game.
 
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