Forza 4 VS GT5 (read the first post before you contribute)

[Wolfe]

ease of control does relate to how easy it is to drive fast, every game is easy if you don't drive at the limit. driving at 80% in any game and real life is easy.

They're related, but not interdependent. A game can make it very easy to hold a drift, but at the same time make it difficult to keep from drifting in the first place. Given that drifting is slower than grip driving, it would therefore be difficult to drive fast, but relatively easy to keep your car on the track and pointed in the right direction.

Hell, the entire concept of most arcade racers is that it's easy and approachable for all players, but difficult to master and be the best. That kinda illustrates what I'm getting at: FM4 is one of the most hardcore console sims around, but it still has arcade-like qualities. Its unflappable handling is merely a transparent example of one of those qualities.

I'd say that's one point in Gran Turismo 5's favor -- it's not any more realistic (less so, in my opinion), but at least its cars can bite you. The mid- and rear-engined cars demand some respect, as they should. In FM4 I can drift the Shelby Cobra, Lotus Exige, RUFs, and even LeMans prototypes all day long without much concern. I'm pretty well-practiced at that sort of thing, but that only means I can recognize that it's just too simple.

To be honest, it's good that I can be this nitpicky. It shows how far the Forza series has come. 👍

 

[imported_JJ72]

my theory is the more arcade a game is, the less "real' driving skill becomes a factor, it become a contest of muscle memory and memorization, the time difference between different skill level is also narrowed hence it can be harder for players with sim background to stand out, that accounts of the "easy to learn but hard to master" aspect. It's sort of like it's harder to win consistently in nascar even if you are skilled.

In terms of just man vs the system and ringing out the ultimate pace, I would still say simulators are harder to master, just been on the Turbo F1 car in project CARS, it is just about the hardest thing to drive fast in virtual racing.

 

[imported_s_maR]

GT also has two different physics models - one for offline and another for online.

Proof

AI in GT look stupid. In fact, they do that all on their own in B-Spec.

Once again for you! This work is in AI and in detail of the car! See how it deteriorated This is because on the track more than one machine, because the game engine can not handle so many polygons! Cuts detailing vehicles! Look at the texture of grass, it looks like in FIFA 98 on PS1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXriG8P31E
Building a car just terrible, even in games ASR2 car games are built better! Here it is it shows! But in the case of Forza this photomod! As the game is much worse!

I don't think anyone has ever argued against the fact that GT5, when at it's best, looks better than FM4. The problem with that is it's best is inconsistent. Thus, FM4 has better quality across the board.

It is only your opinion

Now, a question unto you: have you played FM4?

Yes? my friend have x360!

 

[Spagetti69]

Proof

Try rolling a car online mate, then get back to us.

 

[Scaff]

Proof

Are you seriously saying that cars handle the same on and off-line in GT5?

Once again for you! This work is in AI and in detail of the car! See how it deteriorated This is because on the track more than one machine, because the game engine can not handle so many polygons! Cuts detailing vehicles! Look at the texture of grass, it looks like in FIFA 98 on PS1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXriG8P31E
Building a car just terrible, even in games ASR2 car games are built better! Here it is it shows! But in the case of Forza this photomod! As the game is much worse!

What exactly does how the cars look like have to do with AI?

However if you are saying the cars in FM4 look much worse that the cars in GT5, then I would have to disagree. Premium cars in GT5 do look better, but the differences are not huge, how ever the difference between a standard car in GT5 and a car in FM4 is huge, and its not FM4 that looks worse in that situation.

Still don't see what that has to do with AI.

It is only your opinion

One a lot of people share.

Just to confirm are you saying that taken as an average GT is a more consistent product that FM4?

Yes? my friend have x360!

So you don't have any long term experience with it.


Scaff

 

[Terronium-12]

Proof

Online Physics vs Offline Physics (GTPlanet)

Once again for you! This work is in AI and in detail of the car! See how it deteriorated This is because on the track more than one machine, because the game engine can not handle so many polygons!

Showing me the same video isn't going to change a thing. And I'm not even sure what you're arguing toward to end as AI calculations have nothing to do with how many polygons are being rendered at any one given time.

Cuts detailing vehicles! Look at the texture of grass, it looks like in FIFA 98 on PS1

This has to do with what, exactly? Let alone the fact it isn't even true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXriG8P31E
Building a car just terrible, even in games ASR2 car games are built better! Here it is it shows! But in the case of Forza this photomod! As the game is much worse!

Not sure what you're saying here. Clearer, please.

It is only your opinion

No, the fact that GT5 is fairly inconsistent across the board isn't much of an opinion: Standards vs. Premiums, offline physics vs. online physics, photo travel, etc.

Yes? my friend have x360!

So, you don't actually own it. Therefore I'll presume you haven't put a lot of time into it.

 

[HBK]

I think you are confusing "overboosting" with philosophy.

No, I'm pretty sure I didn't confuse that.

It's fairly obvious for anyone versed in programming that Forza 4 still uses portions of code which hardly changed from Forza 1.

And I would be surprised if GT5 uses absolutely no line of code from GT1, because that's how things work.

For example, the reason why damage modeling has been implemented with such reluctance in GT5 has nothing to do with "philosophy". It's because it wasn't there in the first place and it was not easy to implement at all in the simplistic physics engine GT5 uses, which, while probably not sharing many portions of code from GT1, is still based on the same assumptions and is most likely is an evolution of GT1's engine. I very highly doubt that at some point PD completely rewrote their physics engine from scratch. Again, that's not how things work.

 

[PzR Slim]

But in the case of Forza this photomod! As the game is much worse!

If you are going to post pics to compare the games at least use a pic that does FM4 justice.

Now I agree that GT5 still looks a little bit better than my pic but FM4 still looks very, very good.

 

[artboy76]

I used to work for a famous bookstore in England years ago, we used to have book clubs regularly……..

We’d obviously all pick some books and read them then discuss and comment and criticize etc…….

Now we were all happy that we could openly discuss the books merits or foibles and sometime even get heated arguments going, safe in the knowledge that the person had at the very least read the whole book…….

If for example someone were to turn up at book club…..and mention they disliked a book I were very keen on…..if they mentioned mid way through the debate that they only read the first chapter then left it……..i’d not give them any further time of day regards the subject…..

Do you get my point?

Yet again I find us debating with someone who has played Forza 4 “round a friends house”

Waste of time….. we should ignore them and they will go away…

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

As somebody with experience of both games they both have their strengths and weaknesses, GT5 has incredible Day/Night effects and weather changes are a nice effect but the level of customisation in FM4 is fantastic. One thing is certain though the competition between the 2 makes them both rise to an higher level. As for which is better its like chosing which of your legs you want to keep, I'd rather have both!

 

[UKMikey]

Waste of time….. we should ignore them and they will go away…

Alternatively we could always talk steering with them... or more specifically talk torque steering.

Something like this https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=122236 run on the two games would be quite enlightening. Of course, I'm way too lazy to do it myself.

 

[JoeMaPampang]

So the 2.04 gt update is available. Its funny everytime I read the new "updates list" i cant help but too scratch my head about these updates. The worst part about it is, it raises more glitches and problems everytime they release new ones.

here: example

"The latest version of Gran Turismo 5, version 2.04, is now available. Weighing in at 79MB in size, the update focuses on fixing a wide range of software issues and bugs. Here’s the complete list of changes as announced by Polyphony Digital:

*Improved the performance of online races to provide a better racing experience. However, please note that using voice chat with 12 or more players can reduce screen refresh intervals.

*Reduced wobbling of the screen when using the Chase view (The Chase view is when the car is viewed from the rear during races and replays, selected by using the SELECT button).

*Electric cars (opponent cars and your cars in B-Spec) will now pit-in automatically to recharge the battery.

*Reduced the amount of steering pull when using force feedback steering wheel controllers in banks on courses such as the Special Stage Route X Oval.

*When driving formula cars using the Logitech steering wheel controllers, the initial force feedback amount has been lessened and adjusted to make it easier to drive in a straight line.

*Fixed an issue where speedometer, race position and best lap time info are sometimes not displayed on the 2nd player side in 2P Battle Mode.

*Fixed an issue where exhaust sound is heard even after switching from a combustion engine car to an electric car within the same online race.

*Fixed an issue where if the game is started without signing in online and then saved, the cars and courses included in the Racing Car Pack and Course Pack would become unusable.

*Fixed an issue where electric cars would not recharge in the pit and become immobile.

*Fixed an issue where when the oil of the Toyota Prius was changed in GT

*Auto, the motor ceased to function correctly.

*Improved the force feedback of the Guillemot Thrustmaster T500 RS, where the 10 level force feedback adjustment (especially when using the X2010 and X2011) was not working effectively. Also improved a condition where it was difficult to drive in the intended path.

*UPDATE: Polyphony Digital has already acknowledged a known issues with 2.04. Thanks to all of you who sent this in!

A problem has been found in the 2.04 update released on February 7, where players sometimes do not receive experience and rewards after an online race in the open lobby or the lounge. We are currently investigating the issue and are working to correct the problem. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause and ask for your understanding.
"

 

[Luminis]

Meanwhile, in Las Vegas:

Forza Motorsport 4 becomes the racing game of the year. Source.

As did FM3 during the 2010 awards. Guess which game was the racing game of the year in 2011, when GT5 was nominated? Need for Speed: Hot Pusuit. Just sayin'.

 

[Chagen46]

Meanwhile, in Las Vegas:

Forza Motorsport 4 becomes the racing game of the year. Source.

As did FM3 during the 2010 awards. Guess which game was the racing game of the year in 2011, when GT5 was nominated? Need for Speed: Hot Pusuit. Just sayin'.

Okay, Luminis, I normally appreciate your opinions and agree with you quite a lot, but you've just done the time-old "Sim games are better than Arcade games by sheer virute of being sims" thing. And I'm getting tired of seeing that.

 

[Luminis]

Okay, Luminis, I normally appreciate your opinions and agree with you quite a lot, but you've just done the time-old "Sim games are better than Arcade games by sheer virute of being sims" thing. And I'm getting tired of seeing that.

That actually wasn't my intention. Not at all. All I was trying to say was that FM3 and FM4 both were elected as the racing game of the year, when they were nominated. GT5 wasn't. It doesn't really matter what kind of game it got bested by.

I just stumbled across those news and thought it was kinda fitting to post it in here

 

[Chagen46]

Sorry.

I read a "FM got two GOTY awards, while GT lost a friggin' arcade game" message into it.

 

[20B_4ME]

If I had to resume my opinion of GT5 and FM4 into one phrase it would be:

Forza feels more natural and fun while still remaining realistic and GT5 feels realistic when driving the car but the rest of the game feels more restrictive and artificial.

 

[hennessey86]

There are still people talkign of graphics when I clearly stated in the comparison that they mean jack **** to a sim, look at Race Pro all you GT5 fans that keep coming in here there you will find a terrible looking game that is far far better when it comes to physics, A.I and actual racing that the gt series has ever been.

 

[Imari]

As much as some people dislike the 2 year release schedule on Forza, there's definite stability advantages to starting with known solid code every two years rather than long term patching. As has been noted, every time something is patched in GT5, something else breaks.

 

[imported_Chad Esposito]

It's a shame, GT5 is a very good game too. It has so much to offer, yet bad decisions, and bad planning is plaguing it.

 

[Luminis]

There are still people talkign of graphics when I clearly stated in the comparison that they mean jack **** to a sim, look at Race Pro all you GT5 fans that keep coming in here there you will find a terrible looking game that is far far better when it comes to physics, A.I and actual racing that the gt series has ever been.

I'm sorry, but I don't think that kind of statement is going to stop anyone from discussing graphics. Unless it came from a moderator.

That said, yeah, Race Pro (and GTR, for that matter) are fantastic sims. However, those games are following a completely different formula than GT, Forza and NFS Shift do. And, while I agree that GT and Fotza (and even Shift, if there's going to be another one) could still learn something from Race Pro's realism, I'd say that it's quite a tad more difficult to get to the same degree of realism when you're looking at a few hundred, upgradable road cars mixed with a few dozen race cars.

Race Pro and games that are build around that distinct Gran Tourismo formula are essentially operating under completely different conditions. You might as well point to F1 2011 for actually having flag rules and safety cars.

Just food for thought.

As much as some people dislike the 2 year release schedule on Forza, there's definite stability advantages to starting with known solid code every two years rather than long term patching. As has been noted, every time something is patched in GT5, something else breaks.

I never really understood why people disliked the two year schedule. Granted, I'd say that T10 could maybe create an even better game if they had more time at their disposale, but, on the other hand, it means that they are able to constantly evolve their franchise. The big advantage, I think, is that they don't have to makehuge leaps with every release. They can improve their game one bit at a time and are still very well set up, compared to the rest of the industry.

I am fully expecting the two year cycle to be broken soon, though, even though it's probably only going to happen once, as I would imagine that MS wants a Forza title to be ready for the launch of their new Xbox. Therefore, I am of the opinion that we might be seeing a Forza game with a bit more development time, just so it can coincide with the launch of the next Xbox.

Just speculation, of course, but I'm of the opinion that it would kinda make sense from a business point of view.

It's a shame, GT5 is a very good game too. It has so much to offer, yet bad decisions, and bad planning is plaguing it.

It would've had the potential to be just about the best racing game on consoles nowadays, I think. If PD did it the same way as they did GT3. You know, quality being the most important factor. Get stuff right before putting huge amounts of "content"* into the game.

* I kinda like to differentiate between actual content and just a lot of assets. Having 1,000 cars is great and all, but I don't consider it to be an indicator for how much content the game actually has.

 

[imported_s_maR]

That said, yeah, Race Pro (and GTR, for that matter) are fantastic sims. However, those games are following a completely different formula than GT, Forza and NFS Shift do. And, while I agree that GT and Fotza (and even Shift, if there's going to be another one) could still learn something from Race Pro's realism, I'd say that it's quite a tad more difficult to get to the same degree of realism when you're looking at a few hundred, upgradable road cars mixed with a few dozen race cars.

Race Pro and games that are build around that distinct Gran Tourismo formula are essentially operating under completely different conditions. You might as well point to F1 2011 for actually having flag rules and safety cars.

Just food for thought.

GT has nothing to learn from other developers! For GT series is absolutely innovative product! You're talking about a different formula, I agree with you, because each developer have their approach! And I thank the developers of GT that they do not look at other products, and develop your own masterpiece!

I never really understood why people disliked the two year schedule. Granted, I'd say that T10 could maybe create an even better game if they had more time at their disposale, but, on the other hand, it means that they are able to constantly evolve their franchise. The big advantage, I think, is that they don't have to makehuge leaps with every release. They can improve their game one bit at a time and are still very well set up, compared to the rest of the industry.

I am fully expecting the two year cycle to be broken soon, though, even though it's probably only going to happen once, as I would imagine that MS wants a Forza title to be ready for the launch of their new Xbox. Therefore, I am of the opinion that we might be seeing a Forza game with a bit more development time, just so it can coincide with the launch of the next Xbox.

Just speculation, of course, but I'm of the opinion that it would kinda make sense from a business point of view.

And I think that not about time! I agree to wait and 3-4 years, but that game must be revolutionary! I understand developers GT, they will not produce the same product every 1-2 years like everyone else! It is not about visual part of the game, because the game looked like in 2007!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EMfPl-5AVI
GT developers had to develop a new physical engine for graphics! Because nextgen!

It would've had the potential to be just about the best racing game on consoles nowadays, I think. If PD did it the same way as they did GT3. You know, quality being the most important factor. Get stuff right before putting huge amounts of "content"* into the game.
I kinda like to differentiate between actual content and just a lot of assets. Having 1,000 cars is great and all, but I don't consider it to be an indicator for how much content the game actually has.

For you specifically, GT is not only the best simulator for consoles! But could easily compete with computer simulators!

 

[hennessey86]

GT has nothing to learn from other developers! For GT series is absolutely innovative product! You're talking about a different formula, I agree with you, because each developer have their approach! And I thank the developers of GT that they do not look at other products, and develop your own masterpiece!

that right there is exactly whats wrong with GT5, Polyphony does need to take a look at its competitors because it is far from innovative. Name me one feature that another game doesn't have. innovation means having something that no one else has. GT5 weather is bettered by F1 2010, GT5 rally is bettered by dirt 3 etc jack of all trades master of none comes to mind

And I think that not about time! I agree to wait and 3-4 years, but that game must be revolutionary! I understand developers GT, they will not produce the same product every 1-2 years like everyone else! It is not about visual part of the game, because the game looked like in 2007!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EMfPl-5AVI
GT developers had to develop a new physical engine for graphics! Because nextgen!

GT5 took 5 years and it wasn't revolutionary, far from it. They spent to much time counting the stitches on the premium cars

For you specifically, GT is not only the best simulator for consoles! But could easily compete with computer simulators!

If you think GT5 can compete with the likes of R factor, GTR, RBR and i racing then you my friend are blind

 

[Scaff]

GT has nothing to learn from other developers! For GT series is absolutely innovative product! You're talking about a different formula, I agree with you, because each developer have their approach! And I thank the developers of GT that they do not look at other products, and develop your own masterpiece!

List me ten things that the GT series has innovated in the racing title market (that's only two per release).

I will give you one as a head start:

The GT series was the first to successfully include a wide race of cars in a single title from Kei right up to racing titles.

Nice others please, because GT is not quite as innovative as you think, and has quite clearly borrowed from other titles over the years.


Simply put GT has one hell of a lot to learn from other titles, and the sprawling mess that is GT5 goes a long way to indicate that.

And I think that not about time! I agree to wait and 3-4 years, but that game must be revolutionary! I understand developers GT, they will not produce the same product every 1-2 years like everyone else! It is not about visual part of the game, because the game looked like in 2007!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EMfPl-5AVI

And they then spent the time making it look worse for GT5, they certainly spent those three years well.

If GT5 had been as well rounded a package as GT5P then I'm fairly certain a lot more people would be a lot happier with it, as Prologue is a much more complete title, despite having less content.

GT developers had to develop a new physical engine for graphics! Because nextgen!

And what did Forza developers, and every other racing title developer have to do with the next-gen?

The exact same thing.

Yes the GT series has always been at the leading edge of console titles in terms of looks, but looks don't make a good title alone.

For you specifically, GT is not only the best simulator for consoles! But could easily compete with computer simulators!

Now I am sure that Luminis will clarify this himself, but I'm fairly certain that he was not saying that.

A major disconnect appears to be occurring here and I strongly suspect its a language barrier. I also suspect that you have very, very little experience with FM4, which puts you at a major disadvantage when compared to most here. The majority of members here have at least as much, if not more experience with the entire GT series as they have with Forza. We know both series extremely well, for example my copies of Forza 1 - 4 sit quite happily alongside my copies of GT 1 -5 (+ GT4P, GTC and GT5), they don't even get into fights or anything.


Scaff

 

[Luminis]

GT has nothing to learn from other developers! For GT series is absolutely innovative product! You're talking about a different formula, I agree with you, because each developer have their approach! And I thank the developers of GT that they do not look at other products, and develop your own masterpiece!

As a bit of a preambel, I'm not sure whether I understood everything you were saying. Anyways...

GT was innovative in the 90's. GT5 did just about nothing I haven't seen in other games prior to GT5. I'm sorry, but being innovative is not one of GT's strengths. Looking at other products would've been very helpful and it would be very helpful to just about every franchise there is.

It's just that Race Pro is following a different formula than GT/FM, which makes it hard to compare the achievements of these games in terms of realism. That doesn't mean that PD and T10 shouldn't be looking at Race Pro to get some ideas about how to improve their respective games.

And I think that not about time! I agree to wait and 3-4 years, but that game must be revolutionary! I understand developers GT, they will not produce the same product every 1-2 years like everyone else! It is not about visual part of the game, because the game looked like in 2007!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EMfPl-5AVI
GT developers had to develop a new physical engine for graphics! Because nextgen!

I usually agree that developers should take their time to develop a game thoroughly. That's why I'm appreciating that Blizzard is taking so long to release Diablo III.

In the case of GT5, though, I think it was a waste of time. PD didn't manage to deliver the quality I expected. The game wasn't finished and polished to the same degree that I got to know from previous PD titles.

Especially the physics part is underwhemling. They spend so long to build a physics engine from scratch, but they couldn't build one that takes tyre pressue and contact patches into account? I mean, what were they doing? Scripting input-output reactions for the cars that resemble what the real car would do without actually incorporating a physics engine?

For you specifically, GT is not only the best simulator for consoles! But could easily compete with computer simulators!

Sorry, but as far as realism goes, neither GT5 nor Forza can hold a candle against the physics engines that are available for PC games. Gamees like iRacing are in a different league, still. If you think that GT5 is on par with those games, I'm assuming that you never played them.

Also, I'd even disagree with it being the best simulator on consoles. In terms of realism, it is indeed Race Pro, because it's the most realistic. All I'm saying is, it's much harder for GT and FM to get their, so we should cut them some slack.

And, last but not least, FM4 feels like a better simulator to me. It just depicts a car's behaviour and the general physics better than GT5. At least from my limited experience with real cars.

 

[Terronium-12]

For you specifically, GT is not only the best simulator for consoles! But could easily compete with computer simulators!

No. GTR2 still calculates things GT does not. You know how old GTR2 is?

Also, I'd even disagree with it being the best simulator on consoles. In terms of realism, it is indeed Race Pro, because it's the most realistic. All I'm saying is, it's much harder for GT and FM to get their, so we should cut them some slack.

Actually, I'd say it's between Ferrari Challenge (and by extension Supercar Challenge) and Race Pro.

 

[t.o.]

No. GTR2 still calculates things GT does not. You know how old GTR2 is?


Actually, I'd say it's between Ferrari Challenge (and by extension Supercar Challenge) and Race Pro.

Man I gotta play this Ferrari Challenge. Every time I put it out of my mind somebody pops it back in.

 

[Terronium-12]

It's a good game. Has fantastic music, you can really get a feel for cars like the F40, F50, Enzo, etc.

I only wish the developers (whose name begets me) had saw more success with it.

 

[imported_s_maR]

List me ten things that the GT series has innovated in the racing title market (that's only two per release).

I will give you one as a head start:

The GT series was the first to successfully include a wide race of cars in a single title from Kei right up to racing titles.

Nice others please, because GT is not quite as innovative as you think, and has quite clearly borrowed from other titles over the years.


Simply put GT has one hell of a lot to learn from other titles, and the sprawling mess that is GT5 goes a long way to indicate that.

Forzafan! The whole game interface created perfect and unique and rises from GT1! For the first time in GT was introduced photomod! First appeared in GT5 Top Gear! Auto School established in GT! B-spec created in GT although it is not very good! PD create the interface for Nissan GTR, with Citroen Citroen GT created! However, Red Bull created X1! View career! The revolution in physics handling car! The revolution in the graphic!
Maybe you do not understand but Forza copies all GT! Forza is designed to wast! This is all glamour! You poke every 2 years, the same product and you do not even know!
PD do not need to learn! Just so they planned ambitious project, which should took 2 more years! The only negative is the standard auto and standart track! In all other criteria other developers away!

And they then spent the time making it look worse for GT5, they certainly spent those three years well.

If GT5 had been as well rounded a package as GT5P then I'm fairly certain a lot more people would be a lot happier with it, as Prologue is a much more complete title, despite having less content.

What tіy talking about? You do prove that GT5 looks worse GTHD! Then you do not speak INTO they spent another 3 years to develop! You do not understand that!

And what did Forza developers, and every other racing title developer have to do with the next-gen?

The exact same thing.

Yes the GT series has always been at the leading edge of console titles in terms of looks, but looks don't make a good title alone.

Let's see how Forza looks back in 2007!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk-IvPZCLww
And now for GT4 in 2004
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb5ArDCyh_4&feature=related
They differ little from each other in the visual design. Perhaps you saw looked like GTHD in 2007?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EMfPl-5AVI
Any other questions?

Now I am sure that Luminis will clarify this himself, but I'm fairly certain that he was not saying that.

A major disconnect appears to be occurring here and I strongly suspect its a language barrier. I also suspect that you have very, very little experience with FM4, which puts you at a major disadvantage when compared to most here. The majority of members here have at least as much, if not more experience with the entire GT series as they have with Forza. We know both series extremely well, for example my copies of Forza 1 - 4 sit quite happily alongside my copies of GT 1 -5 (+ GT4P, GTC and GT5), they don't even get into fights or anything.

NO matter the language barrier, you just have a hard time understanding how Phenomenal GT project. It does not matter how many copies of games you have!

No. GTR2 still calculates things GT does not. You know how old GTR2 is?

Give me Proof! No. GT still calculates things GTR2 does not.

 

[Terronium-12]

Forzafan! The whole game interface created perfect and unique and rises from GT1! For the first time in GT was introduced photomod!

What? Photomode wasn't "introduced" until Gran Turismo 4.

First appeared in GT5 Top Gear!

I'm not even sure why you, or anyone else, would use this as the basis for an argument - 1 event consisting of three whole races and you never hear of Top Gear again.

Auto School established in GT!

Which means what, exactly?

B-spec created in GT although it is not very good!

The original Drivatar was, and still is, better than B-Spec.

PD create the interface for Nissan GTR, with Citroen Citroen GT created! However, Red Bull created X1!

Ah, we've returned to this line of reasoning. Let me ask you one thing: how is it that the 2012 GT-R cannot accelerate to 60 as quickly as the real-life counterpart?

View career!

Which lacks in comparison to nearly every full-on Gran Turismo release to date. Hell, it even lacks features from Prologue.

The revolution in physics handling car!

Where Formula 1 cars can be launched off the line, with no aids, in a perfectly straight line.

Maybe you do not understand but Forza copies all GT!

The original did, but since then Forza has come quite a long way, going down it's own path. Even in it's debut release it was doing things GT still isn't doing.

Forza is designed to wast!

Have you played GT5 before? Top Gear, NASCAR, WRC, Ferrari F1 chassis' - all licenses/likenesses wasted or severely under-utilized.

This is all glamour!

Have you, or have you not been tirelessly citing GT's visuals as strong point? Yet, you contradict yourself by saying this?

PD do not need to learn!

Except they do.

Let's see how Forza looks back in 2007!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk-IvPZCLww
And now for GT4 in 2004
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb5ArDCyh_4&feature=related
They differ little from each other in the visual design. Perhaps you saw looked like GTHD in 2007?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EMfPl-5AVI
Any other questions?

I've one: what is any of this supposed to prove?

Give me Proof! No. GT still calculates things GTR2 does not.

See, that's not how a discussion works: you presented the premise that GT5 is on par with PC simulators, and as a result you must provide proof.