Forza 6 vs Other Games - Physics Discussion Thread

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I use the assist because I feel like it, and I like it better, and hyper sensitive steering has never been a thing I've encountered in real life. The fluidity and natural state of normal steering mimics that of the cars I've driven in real life. Not one time has a correction ended with my car reacting to opposite lock in the way that it has using that setting. I don't like it, that's why I don't use it.

However, like I said, I don't have a wheel, so I dont know how it reacts on that. Neither do you for that matter.

Steering assists is much different then what simulation steering is. It just removes the dampers on the pad and gives a very( very very very) direct input method with a very small amount of rotation, making it unrealistic compared to actually driving a car that actually has much more rotation.

??

Another thing I'm wondering, is that when you drive a car, are you trying to say that it reacts like simulation steering does? What car have you driven that reacts like that?
I've experienced direct steering in real life, however car didn't behave hypersensitive.
Perhaps broken is the wrong word to use..... Lets put it this way. The intended device that sim steering is supposed to be used with, is with the xbox control pad; not a wheel. The wheel doesn't use the hidden controller aids in normal steering like the default xbox controller does (bolded because you keep ignoring this part, please dont, it is important to what I am discussing here with you). So by turning on sim steering while using a wheel, it makes everything hyper sensitive at the wheels center. As I said hours ago in a previous post, the controller emulates 180° of steering lock to lock. And sim steering, at its core, is designed to work with that particular device and its emulation of 180° of steering rotation.
Can you prove the intended device is for control pad and not a wheel?
It says the "Simulation" steering aid is borked. Not the physics themselves. Simulation removes all assists on a controller, assists that exist to shrink the gap between controller and wheel fidelity. A counter-steer aid, filtering, and speed-sensitive steering all exist on a controller for good reason: if movements were 1:1 with the stick, the game would be practically undriveable, since we'd be able to apply max lock in an instant. Similar controller aids are in most console games - they're certainly present in GT6.

Like @Ialyrn said, it could more accurately be described as "Hardcore" mode, as it definitely makes things more difficult. But not necessarily more realistic.

The above is all about using a controller, as I too don't have much experience with a wheel on FM6, only on a pre-release beta version of the game.

One assist not working ideally =/= physics engine broken. What you're arguing is akin to saying GT6's entire physics engine is broken because of SRF. Actually, even that isn't a valid comparison, since Simulation steering in FM6 is a hardware-based issue. SRF actually changes the physics.

Now, you can answer this, since you asked for it.
It makes it 1:1 on wheel 900 degrees of steering rotation so what you input is direct consequence of your actions like other simulation racing games. Why is it unrealistic / not necessarily more realistic on Forza and described as "Hardcore" mode? Is standard wheel settings on other racing games "Hardcore" as standard?

Why is it broken because of SRF, do you see it as the best simulation experience with game?
 

SlipZtrEm

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It makes it 1:1 on wheel 900 degrees of steering rotation so what you input is direct consequence of your actions like other simulation racing games. Why is it unrealistic / not necessarily more realistic on Forza and described as "Hardcore" mode? Is standard wheel settings on other racing games "Hardcore" as standard?

Ah, still having trouble with that whole reading thing I see. Maybe if it's bolded and quoted?

The above is all about using a controller

Why is it broken because of SRF, do you see it as the best simulation experience with game?

You'll have to massage this sentence so that it actually makes sense. Right now it's too vague to understand what you're actually asking.

And, for the third time now: you can answer this, since you asked for it.
 
13,671
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lImaRobotl
It makes it 1:1 on wheel 900 degrees of steering rotation so what you input is direct consequence of your actions like other simulation racing games. Why is it unrealistic / not necessarily more realistic on Forza and described as "Hardcore" mode? Is standard wheel settings on other racing games "Hardcore" as standard?
It making it 1:1 may be realistic compared to turning a wheel, but how it effects the vehicle is not at all what you would call realistic. If you think how the cars behave with that mode enabled, then please, can you finally answer these questions?

What is it exactly that you don't agree with in that post? I'm sure you can go into detail with it and give us a very good explanation. What exactly is it that makes it so?

Another thing I'm wondering, is that when you drive a car, are you trying to say that it reacts like simulation steering does? What car have you driven that reacts like that?

That is in regards to hyper-sensitive steering input, not the steering ratio.

Another thing I'm confused about, is why are you arguing this? You yourself said that Simulation steering isn't good in the past, and used it to gauge and deduct that the physics are broken because of it. What is your end game?
 
6,573
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Ah, still having trouble with that whole reading thing I see. Maybe if it's bolded and quoted?





You'll have to massage this sentence so that it actually makes sense. Right now it's too vague to understand what you're actually asking.

And, for the third time now: you can answer this, since you asked for it.
Why mention Ialyrn as she was talking about wheel use?

Simulation steering is an "assist" like TCS off but you are comparing it to SRF which is an assist that gives you more grip if you break traction. Strange thing to do I must say.

I did ask VXR a question, just wanted to know what issues.
It making it 1:1 may be realistic compared to turning a wheel, but how it effects the vehicle is not at all what you would call realistic. If you think how the cars behave with that mode enabled, then please, can you finally answer these questions?





That is in regards to hyper-sensitive steering input, not the steering ratio.

Another thing I'm confused about, is why are you arguing this? You yourself said that Simulation steering isn't good in the past, and used it to gauge and deduct that the physics are broken because of it. What is your end game?
Bingo, so why does car not react realistic? I think it goes back to the games physics engine.
 
Compared to the lap I did on the xbox one control pad, I would have to agree. But not when comparing the lap I did on the wheel to the real life footage you have showed. I was not pushing the car as hard with the wheel, and I had the same "hiccups" in the same area's as the real world driver. I was taking note of where they had to apply counter steer, no matter how small.

The issue here is, is that people are expecting Forza to be like burnout. I am seeing with ever more frequency, that people are all or nothing on the inputs they are making. And this is what is causing the issues they are seeing. When it comes to my driving, I try to be as smooth as I possibly can. And by doing so, I am not seeing these issues with the handling that others are. Not only that, but I can only replicate their issues when I drive like an utter tool. I am not saying that Forza is perfect, because it isnt. It still has area's where it needs improvements. But no sim based racing game is perfect, and they all have issues in the same sort of area's.

+1 👍
 
6,318
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HBR-Roadhog
HBR Roadhog
How is it that people here are calling Sim steering and aid or an assist? You do know that sim means simulation right? That means that sim steering is supposed to be realistic steering and normal is an assisted steering.

Sim steering definitely does not work properly and normal steering is definitely assisted steering not as much so as the assisted steering option but assisted none the less.

As for grip issues there are definitely issues there as well, I am amazed that i see as many people defending it as I do here yet that does not change the fact that many if not most of the cars in FM6 suffer from unrealistic oversteer conditions. Almost every car made is stock tuned for understeer for safety reasons but in Forza 6 most of them are default tuned for oversteer.

I know some here will disagree, maybe because they do not know any better, maybe because they like a car that oversteers and to them it is fine or maybe they just love Forza so much that they can not admit that it does not do something right yet the fact is that it does tend to oversteer when it should not.

Yes you can tune it out and make the cars drive much closer to the way they should or you can slow down and be very careful and make it around the track, much slower of course but it can be done.
 
39,024
If I play watch someone else play GT6 with the d pad on an original Dual Shock, what can I infer from the accuracy of the physics of that title when they crash?
 
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lImaRobotl
How is it that people here are calling Sim steering and aid or an assist? You do know that sim means simulation right? That means that sim steering is supposed to be realistic steering and normal is an assisted steering.
Except that no one is saying it like that. They are saying normal steering is assisted. Because it's supposed to be realistic, doesn't mean it is. The only thing realistic about it is the 1:1 steering ratio you would get when using a wheel, not the pad.

Sim steering definitely does not work properly and normal steering is definitely assisted steering not as much so as the assisted steering option but assisted none the less.
Which is all anyone has been saying.

As for grip issues there are definitely issues there as well, I am amazed that i see as many people defending it as I do here yet that does not change the fact that many if not most of the cars in FM6 suffer from unrealistic oversteer conditions. Almost every car made is stock tuned for understeer for safety reasons but in Forza 6 most of them are default tuned for oversteer.
This is up for discussion, as it seems the problems you have no one else is able to recreate, at all. So there must be something else going on in your end. I've seen the claim thrown around alot, even people claiming the physics are broken and using a single car as their example. Yet, when given to the competent, it was shown that the problem was user based. It's hard to go about.

I know some here will disagree, maybe because they do not know any better, maybe because they like a car that oversteers and to them it is fine or maybe they just love Forza so much that they can not admit that it does not do something right yet the fact is that it does tend to oversteer when it should not.
Or maybe because they do know better? Who knows, but I do know for certain that alot of the things you've brought up in error of the game have shown that majority of what you've been claiming have been isolated to you, and hasn't been repeatable with other members.

Yes you can tune it out and make the cars drive much closer to the way they should or you can slow down and be very careful and make it around the track, much slower of course but it can be done.
Odd, I've never had to slow down more than necessary in any car.
 
6,573
United Kingdom
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How is it that people here are calling Sim steering and aid or an assist? You do know that sim means simulation right? That means that sim steering is supposed to be realistic steering and normal is an assisted steering.

Sim steering definitely does not work properly and normal steering is definitely assisted steering not as much so as the assisted steering option but assisted none the less.

As for grip issues there are definitely issues there as well, I am amazed that i see as many people defending it as I do here yet that does not change the fact that many if not most of the cars in FM6 suffer from unrealistic oversteer conditions. Almost every car made is stock tuned for understeer for safety reasons but in Forza 6 most of them are default tuned for oversteer.

I know some here will disagree, maybe because they do not know any better, maybe because they like a car that oversteers and to them it is fine or maybe they just love Forza so much that they can not admit that it does not do something right yet the fact is that it does tend to oversteer when it should not.

Yes you can tune it out and make the cars drive much closer to the way they should or you can slow down and be very careful and make it around the track, much slower of course but it can be done.
Removing aids going by Dan said is an "assist" that is unrealistic. :lol:

I guess I need to run on Novice settings in R3E so I get steering assist on so I don't drive with an "assist" that doesn't have a steering aid. :lol:
 
39,024
yet the fact is that it does tend to oversteer when it should not.
Unless I'm mistaken, I believe one of your standards for "cars that oversteer when they shouldn't" was "deliberately make a mid engined car heavier in the rear and do a huge steering adjustment at 170mph on an oval"

Removing aids going by Dan said is an "assist" that is unrealistic. :lol:

I guess I need to run on Novice settings in R3E so I get steering assist on so I don't drive with an "assist" that doesn't have a steering aid. :lol:

You might as well go do something else, yes.
 
6,318
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HBR-Roadhog
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Unless I'm mistaken, I believe one of your standards for "cars that oversteer when they shouldn't" was "deliberately make a mid engined car heavier in the rear and do a huge steering adjustment at 170mph on an oval"
No.. That was just an extreme example. It happens with FR cars, FF cars AWD cars, most of the cars in the game that I have tried showed some exaggerated amount of oversteer and very few exhibit understeer.

And no I wasn't making a huge input adjustment, I was driving the car in a way that it should be capable of being driven. I only used it as an example because I knew if the nay sayers tried it they would crash and burn where as I was able to drive it around the track at higher speeds than that ;)
 
13,671
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lImaRobotl
No.. That was just an extreme example. It happens with FR cars, FF cars AWD cars, most of the cars in the game that I have tried showed some exaggerated amount of oversteer and very few exhibit understeer.

And no I wasn't making a huge input adjustment, I was driving the car in a way that it should be capable of being driven. I only used it as an example because I knew if the nay sayers tried it they would crash and burn where as I was able to drive it around the track at higher speeds than that ;)
Best way we can diagnose this is for you to record it.
 

SlipZtrEm

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Why mention Ialyrn as she was talking about wheel use?

She was talking about both in that post. Seriously, read entire posts. It does wonders.

"Harcore" would make a lot more sense as a name for it in the assists menu, since the menu doesn't specify wheel or controller.

Simulation steering is an "assist" like TCS off but you are comparing it to SRF which is an assist that gives you more grip if you break traction. Strange thing to do I must say.

Because nobody would say that GT6's entire physics engine is broken simply because of SRF's existence, so to do I find it strange that you seem to insist FM6's physics engine is broken simply because of Simulation steering's existence.

I did ask VXR a question, just wanted to know what issues.

And, completely unsurprisingly, you don't see an issue with the documented issues with another game's physics engine. But a game you have no experience with, you continue to make claims you can't hope to back up. Got it.

Bingo, so why does car not react realistic? I think it goes back to the games physics engine.

Of course you do. So explain why, then.

How is it that people here are calling Sim steering and aid or an assist? You do know that sim means simulation right? That means that sim steering is supposed to be realistic steering and normal is an assisted steering.

Sim steering definitely does not work properly and normal steering is definitely assisted steering not as much so as the assisted steering option but assisted none the less.

Normal steering is no more assisted than it is in other console racers (on controller). Filtering, speed-sensitive steering, and counter-steer aids are all present on GT6, because working with the couple millimetres of travel a stick provides means they need to be. That's all most people are saying here, with exception to the person with no experience of the game.

As for grip issues there are definitely issues there as well, I am amazed that i see as many people defending it as I do here yet that does not change the fact that many if not most of the cars in FM6 suffer from unrealistic oversteer conditions. Almost every car made is stock tuned for understeer for safety reasons but in Forza 6 most of them are default tuned for oversteer.

I'm currently going through stock cars in E Class. I've found very few cars that oversteer, period. "But wait", you'll say, "those are the slow cars!" and while you wouldn't be wrong, oversteer can and does happen in the lower classes. There are probably still people pulling the arse-end of a Peugeot 205 out of a hedge somewhere in the UK as I type this. But other than the Gurkha (which has absolutely ridiculous levels of oversteer, in all situations), I've found very few cars that don't behave themselves, as you'd expect them to, in different situations. The A110 will wag its tail if you deliberately go off-throttle mid-turn. The 2002 Turbo will do the same when you stamp on the go-pedal and the boost finally arrives. A few of the older front-drivers will tuck quite nicely with a lift, and will require a bit of counter-steer. But the majority will plow on with the hammer down. Some far worse than others.

For higher class cars, well, I've got a lot less experience driving Lambos and such in real life. I do find some of the cars feel less grippy than I would expect, but others, like the 458 Speciale or the Ford GT, and even the Z06, seem pretty good, at least going by what I can find out about them off videos (which is apparently enough to be conclusive for some). If I drive a GT3-class racer like a ham-fisted nut, I fully expect it to misbehave and slide all over the place. I'm not sure why that should be surprising to people.

I know some here will disagree, maybe because they do not know any better, maybe because they like a car that oversteers and to them it is fine or maybe they just love Forza so much that they can not admit that it does not do something right yet the fact is that it does tend to oversteer when it should not.

I actually only like a car that oversteers when I'm lapping for fun; for serious hotlapping, I'd much rather it be slightly understeery than over, if only for consistency. I also recognize that in-game, I'm doing a whole lot of maximum-lock turning with max throttle, so I expect the cars to get unruly a bit more than they would if I were driving them in the real world, where I wouldn't be driving at 10/10 all the time.

If I play watch someone else play GT6 with the d pad on an original Dual Shock, what can I infer from the accuracy of the physics of that title when they crash?

Anything you want, with certainty. Apparently.
 
No.. That was just an extreme example. It happens with FR cars, FF cars AWD cars, most of the cars in the game that I have tried showed some exaggerated amount of oversteer and very few exhibit understeer.

And no I wasn't making a huge input adjustment, I was driving the car in a way that it should be capable of being driven. I only used it as an example because I knew if the nay sayers tried it they would crash and burn where as I was able to drive it around the track at higher speeds than that ;)

Out of general curiosity, do you whack the analog stick on either side, or do you hold it at an angle while making intricate corrections?

What are your deadzones?
 

VXR

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Whenever this issue about oversteer and Forza is brought up, it always occurs to me how certain people view Top Gear, where cars are power-oversteering for the cameras. The same lack of care in Forza nets the same results as Clarkson shouting 'power' as he winds on oppo and lights up yet another set of tyres.

Surprisingly, though, in 6, I've found several RWD cars have to be driven in this way to oversteer. The E46 for example, will understeer slightly if you're driving neatly and only shows oversteer when you give it the berries. It's one of my favourite cars of all time and everything I've read and seen on this car is analogous to its portrayal in 6.
 
VXR
Whenever this issue about oversteer and Forza is brought up, it always occurs to me how certain people view Top Gear, where cars are power-oversteering for the cameras. The same lack of care in Forza nets the same results as Clarkson shouting 'power' as he winds on oppo and lights up yet another set of tyres.

Surprisingly, though, in 6, I've found several RWD cars have to be driven in this way to oversteer. The E46 for example, will understeer slightly if you're driving neatly and only shows oversteer when you give it the berries. It's one of my favourite cars of all time and everything I've read and seen on this car is analogous to its portrayal in 6.

Well put VXR.

There's even a more dynamic, progressive and believable feel to how cars loose grip and gain traction. The grip, suspension and weight transfer physics have definitely been tweaked, and how you drive the car is exactly how it will react.

While I haven't actually tested out cars on a track, I've pushed a handful on empty roads - Forza 6's driving model is as good as it gets, though, there is ample room for more improvements and tweaks. Physics definitely feel more natural and true-to-life than F5.
 
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HBR-Roadhog
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Out of general curiosity, do you whack the analog stick on either side, or do you hold it at an angle while making intricate corrections?

Why do people ask such silly questions? Look at my signature. I use a wheel.
No I do not jerk it into the corners, my inputs are butter smooth and were even when I used a controller.


As for what was mentioned before about slow vs fast cars. Yes the slow cars do not show the problem nearly as much as the faster ones and I have been driving a lot of the faster cars so far. I typically drive almost everything, almost everywhere. The issues I am seeing are mostly with faster cars though it does happen in some of the slower ones as well.

I'm not going to keep explaining, some may not have saw it, some may not want to and others just may not want to admit it. That does not change the fact that there is an issue and there are plenty of people who have saw this and know it is not right.


btw has any one else noticed that when you are driving a fast car and lift on the throttle the front raises and when you floor it the front dips? In other words it does exactly the opposite of what would be expected in a real car.
 
39,024
No.. That was just an extreme example.
You used an example of realistic car behavior as an extreme example of unrealistic car behavior?

And no I wasn't making a huge input adjustment, I was driving the car in a way that it should be capable of being driven.
@Ialyrn try putting in the engine swap and take it around Indy Oval at high speed and see what happens when you lift while turning at over 170 mph ;)
Right.
 
13,671
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lImaRobotl
I'm not going to keep explaining, some may not have saw it, some may not want to and others just may not want to admit it. That does not change the fact that there is an issue and there are plenty of people who have saw this and know it is not right.
And some just don't want to take in that the problem might be their own.

It's hard to hold any thing towards what you've said considering the problems you have encountered that you had people try to replicate have seem to been isolated to you, or your peripherals. You have countless evidence here, especially through @Ialyrn videos that seem to counter yours and @Saidur_Ali take on the subject. Although atleast you try to explain it while he just literally became the reincarnation of @Zer0.
 
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United Kingdom
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Why would we try it when we already know the result? The car will spin, Or should do; as that is what the real car would do in the exact same circumstance. Here you are talking about taking a corner flat out at 170MPH+, and then sharply lifting off the throttle. Which is something you never want to be doing at those speeds, you don't even want to be doing that when driving a real car at normal road speeds. Basic education in physics tells you that much, let alone all the information that is out there regarding this sort of stuff. Did you even watch that video I linked you to before? The drift bible, where the drift king himself shows all the different ways a drift can be initiated. You may think that video isn't important here, and you may say "oh but he used lots and lots of steering lock". News flash, he isn't using a 270° wheel with a bungee cord for its center force and resistance, he has 900°+ of real steering in that 2,700lbs S14. But it shows exactly what happens if you brake a little harder and later (how you do a braking drift, which only works because of the cars weight transferring to the front), shows what happens if you lift off the throttle while cornering (lift off oversteer, and in an FR of all things. Apparently lift off oversteer doesn't work in an FR!?!), what happens if you don't blip the throttle while downshifting (shift locking). All of it is in there. And sure he is using it in the context of drifting, but he wouldn't be able to use those things for drifting if they didn't happen in real life with RWD cars. Remember that you said:

FR cars are not prone to lift off oversteer in real life.

Fact of the matter is, they are. MR's are effected by it even more, with FWD's been the worst offenders. Even cars that are tuned for understeer can still oversteer when a corner is taken and you lift off the throttle harshly.

http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/weight-transfers.htm

http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/oversteer.htm

I would highly suggest reading these guides to driving fast.
 
Why do people ask such silly questions? Look at my signature. I use a wheel.
No I do not jerk it into the corners, my inputs are butter smooth and were even when I used a controller.


As for what was mentioned before about slow vs fast cars. Yes the slow cars do not show the problem nearly as much as the faster ones and I have been driving a lot of the faster cars so far. I typically drive almost everything, almost everywhere. The issues I am seeing are mostly with faster cars though it does happen in some of the slower ones as well.

I'm not going to keep explaining, some may not have saw it, some may not want to and others just may not want to admit it. That does not change the fact that there is an issue and there are plenty of people who have saw this and know it is not right.


btw has any one else noticed that when you are driving a fast car and lift on the throttle the front raises and when you floor it the front dips? In other words it does exactly the opposite of what would be expected in a real car.

Oh, silly me.. you must pardon me Your Excellency; I failed to eyeball your signature as I'm usually busy quickly replying to other threads.

I'm sorry to know you have issues with wheel control in Forza; there is a certain Forza driver here who goes by the name @Ialyrn and has some pretty good driving skills. I've seen her videos using both a wheel and controller, with no issues at all. If these issues are indeed genuine (and I'm not saying you're making them up out of thin air) then perhaps Ialyrn can replicate them for you 1:1. If not, you might try adjusting your wheel settings, which I'm sure you've already experimented with.

And, you say the nose of the car rises under deceleration and dips under acceleration? I have honestly never seen or heard of such a thing in a Forza game. I think you're wheel is acting up.

Best o'luck getting the issue sorted out as you're really missing out on a great game with excellent control and physics.
 

GrindyBeak

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I'm not sure how relevant you guys will think this video is but it shows Aleksi Uusi-Jaakkola from Team Redline driving literally at the Nurb going against Michael Bartels running in a real BMW gt3. Aleksi when asked says that he only had a couple of laps before this race to get used to but that he thought that Forza 6 is "good" and nodded in sign of approval. This guy apparently races in iRacing at the World Championship level (I didn't even know there was such a thing), it's pretty cool to see how their laps matched so well. I imagine that if Forza 6's physics were bad he would have had a hard adjusting to the game coming from iRacing but he adapted quickly and was fast from the start.


Here is the SBS

Notice how smooth he is on the gas and brake and how smooth he is through the corners. So good compared to most people and he only played two laps prior.

Lots of people come into the game trying to be the best but it's not something you could do overnight. You really got to practice slow and work your way up over time.
 

Wolfe

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When I played Forza Motorsport 4 I begged for more lift-off oversteer; it was a chore to plow through every corner without being able to properly adjust my line or steer with the throttle for the fun of it. It also contributed to make drifting brutish and lame, because it was mainly a matter of booting the throttle and steering where you wanted to go. Throttle = drift. No throttle = no drift. The physics-defying countersteer could mop up a lot of carelessness.

I did notice more oversteer in FM5, but countersteer still resulted in unexpected (inaccurate) drift trajectories. Does Forza Motorsport 6 really enable you to take advantage of each of the drift initiation methods (as @Ialyrn listed) with the intuitive flexibility of a sim like Enthusia, or is it at least making strides in that direction?

"FR cars are not prone to lift off oversteer in real life"...my old E30 would oversteer if you drove it the way we play these games, and it would be an E class car in a Forza game. Ditto for the Legacy, actually, until you get on the power.