Forza Bans Confederate Flags as "Notorious Iconography"

[GlamFM]

There´s a difference between showing the flag in a historic context and straight up glorification.

This flag belongs in a museum and not on a car.

People waving this thing at Nascar races in 2020 know exactly what they are doing and why they are doing it.

Have a little empathy.

 

[BadFlounder]

Good. As an American, and a U.S. Army tank-corps veteran, I've never understood the nonsensical "southern pride" argument over the confederate flag. What are you taking pride in exactly? That your traitor forefathers took up arms against the United States? That your racist forefathers fought a war to try and retain the right to enslave an entire race of people? Sorry boys, I don't see anything to be proud of there. And the most hilarious thing here in the States is seeing these folks flying the confederate flag right alongside the American flag. I'm like, how on earth do you think that makes sense?? lol

The confederate flag should be BANNED in any public forum. Feel free to fly the racist flag in your house, etc. That's your personal business (even if I disagree). The flag should exist in museums and history books. We aren't going to forget or hide our nation's history. We will teach it in our schools and we will continue to learn from our past mistakes (hopefully). But we should not have that traitor flag flying on any school, sporting event, town square, government buildings, etc. Good riddance.

 

[Jimmy Taggart]

As has already been said, where will it all end? The General Lee is an iconic car because of it's design not because it's racist, many people will have downloaded it (or even designed a car inspired by it, like me) purely for nostalgic reasons associated with the programme, not because they are racist. What next, ban all people who have ever designed or downloaded a General Lee paint job?

 

[ajmiles]

As has already been said, where will it all end? The General Lee is an iconic car because of it's design not because it's racist, many people will have downloaded it (or even designed a car inspired by it, like me) purely for nostalgic reasons associated with the programme, not because they are racist. What next, ban all people who have ever designed or downloaded a General Lee paint job?

There's no slippery slope argument to be made here. Turn 10 are saying you can't display the Confederate Flag going forward - there's no retrospective rule or retrospective banning going on. Break the rules in the future - you get suspended/banned. If you broke the new rules at some point in the past - you don't have a problem since those weren't the rules at the time.

 

[samdu]

Good. As an American, and a U.S. Army tank-corps veteran, I've never understood the nonsensical "southern pride" argument over the confederate flag. What are you taking pride in exactly? That your traitor forefathers took up arms against the United States? That your racist forefathers fought a war to try and retain the right to enslave an entire race of people? Sorry boys, I don't see anything to be proud of there. And the most hilarious thing here in the States is seeing these folks flying the confederate flag right alongside the American flag. I'm like, how on earth do you think that makes sense?? lol

The confederate flag should be BANNED in any public forum. Feel free to fly the racist flag in your house, etc. That's your personal business (even if I disagree). The flag should exist in museums and history books. We aren't going to forget or hide our nation's history. We will teach it in our schools and we will continue to learn from our past mistakes (hopefully). But we should not have that traitor flag flying on any school, sporting event, town square, government buildings, etc. Good riddance.

Let me make sure I'm understanding you clearly. You're advocating for a government enforced ban on flying a flag in public? And you once swore to protect and defend the US Constitution? How on earth do you think that makes sense?

As for Turn 10/MS, they're free to dictate what can and can't be displayed in their game. It's their game.

 

[warp9engage]

People waving this thing at Nascar races in 2020 know exactly what they are doing and why they are doing it.

But how do you know? Do you know these people personally to make that kind of judgement?

Good. As an American, and a U.S. Army tank-corps veteran, I've never understood the nonsensical "southern pride" argument over the confederate flag. What are you taking pride in exactly?

From my understading, also according to the polls provided by Famine, most people do take pride in the flag because they're not behind the Civil War meaning of it but, instead, the modern representation of the cultural values of the Southern States. The values are described differently, by different people, but boil down to the following: faith, devotion to family, politeness/good manners, charity and hospitality. Nothing wrong with any of those things, if you ask me.

 

[longshot1314]

I don't think there's any issue removing the Confederate flag, even going by the stats linked here its still pretty evenly associated with racism, especially since it re-emerged in the U.S. during the time when racism was at it's height. That's not to imply that everyone who uses it is racist, but it does account for a sizeable portion. The bigger issue with microsoft and T10 seems to be more the way they use these types of bans to tangentially ban anything remotely similar as shown with the Scottish flag and the General Bee liveries shown in the Forza Horizon 4 thread. Honestly I take more issue with them outright banning any use of the acronym "SS." SS has meant many many different things over the years completely unrelated to the Nazi use of the acronym, and even then the chevy SS logo isn't even remotely similar to the duel lightning bolt SS symbol used by the Nazi SS.

 

[Joey D]

the modern representation of the cultural values of the Southern States.

The Confederate Flag represents treason, traitors, racists, and losers. Why would anyone want to be associated with that? The South lost because they were horrible underequipped and had generals that were terrible. Nowadays, "Southern Pride" represents what exactly? The Southern part of the US is known for awful education, poverty, absolutely insane people (see Florida), a drug problem, and, still, racist behavior. Why would you want to glorify that?

 

[samdu]

As has already been said, where will it all end? The General Lee is an iconic car because of it's design not because it's racist, many people will have downloaded it (or even designed a car inspired by it, like me) purely for nostalgic reasons associated with the programme, not because they are racist. What next, ban all people who have ever designed or downloaded a General Lee paint job?

Having not played Forza for more than a few minutes at a stretch a handful of times, I don't know... are you allowed to name your liveries in the game? Because way past the imagery of the Confederate Navy Jack (which, incidentally, is the flag in question and almost always mistaken for the Confederate Battle Flag), the name of the car is the General Lee. THAT General Lee. Weird that so much emphasis has been placed on the flag and no one has mentioned the name of the car. So will they ban naming the livery "General Lee?"

From a broader view, I wonder how long before the US flag is under assault. There are an awful lot of people that are probably offended by the US flag. Native Americans come immediately to mind. And I'm sure there are some people in countries we've bombed that don't particularly care for the image of the Stars and Stripes, as well.

The Confederate Flag represents treason, traitors, racists, and losers. Why would anyone want to be associated with that? The South lost because they were horrible underequipped and had generals that were terrible. Nowadays, "Southern Pride" represents what exactly? The Southern part of the US is known for awful education, poverty, absolutely insane people (see Florida), a drug problem, and, still, racist behavior. Why would you want to glorify that?

To be fair, we don't claim Florida.

As for drug problems and racism, you don't have to step foot below the Mason-Dixon line to find plenty of that. I thought we were striving, as a society, to eschew rash generalizations.

 

[Jimmy Taggart]

T10 seems to be more the way they use these types of bans to tangentially ban anything remotely similar as shown with the Scottish flag

What??? OMG, I must be public enemy number 1 right now - a Scottish Dukes of Hazard fan

 

[ALMF3512]

I don't think there's any issue removing the Confederate flag, even going by the stats linked here its still pretty evenly associated with racism, especially since it re-emerged in the U.S. during the time when racism was at it's height. That's not to imply that everyone who uses it is racist, but it does account for a sizeable portion. The bigger issue with microsoft and T10 seems to be more the way they use these types of bans to tangentially ban anything remotely similar as shown with the Scottish flag and the General Bee liveries shown in the Forza Horizon 4 thread. Honestly I take more issue with them outright banning any use of the acronym "SS." SS has meant many many different things over the years completely unrelated to the Nazi use of the acronym, and even then the chevy SS logo isn't even remotely similar to the duel lightning bolt SS symbol used by the Nazi SS.

Chevy SS is another example of over-reaction towards censorship.Anyone with a slight idea of cars know SchutzStaffel isn't the meaning of Chevy SS.GM confirmed Rally Sport and Super Sport meaning of RS/SS models.TBH PC is a very far-fetch problem affecting things not even slightly related to Political contents.

 

[longshot1314]

Chevy SS is another example of over-reaction towards censorship.Anyone with a slight idea of cars know SchutzStaffel isn't the meaning of Chevy SS.GM confirmed Rally Sport and Super Sport meaning of RS/SS models.TBH PC is a very far-fetch problem affecting things not even slightly related to Political contents.

Yeah exactly, and what made it worse is that T10 basically talked around the issue by saying they were 'adhering to GM's global marketing branding' yet not one other racing game released at that time or since was adhering to that. Also given Microsoft/T10's overly PC attitude, I think that's why VW wasn't in their games the year the scandal happened. Probably had nothing to do with VW not wanting to license their cars and more that Microsoft/T10 didn't want to be associated with the controversy.

 

[warp9engage]

The Confederate Flag represents treason, traitors, racists, and losers. Why would anyone want to be associated with that? The South lost because they were horrible underequipped and had generals that were terrible. Nowadays, "Southern Pride" represents what exactly? The Southern part of the US is known for awful education, poverty, absolutely insane people (see Florida), a drug problem, and, still, racist behavior. Why would you want to glorify that?

The Confederate Flag meaning is given by its people, not by anyone else. Same applies to any other banner. Most of them still believe it can represent a set of positive qualities in their culture, so let them show that and give them a second chance. You are free to have your opinion on said banner but not the right to force it on others.

I've already said what values Southerners are proud of and I think those are are all nice things. If that's the new meaning they want the Confederate Flag to have, then that's good.

Now, I don't live in America, so I can't say with absolute certainty what the problems of the South are, unless I go spend a good time living there. But I do know it's never a good idea to paint with a broad brush. That's over 110 million people you're calling uneducated, poor, insane (21 million), drug addicts and racists. Jesus!

 

[ImaRobot]

The Confederate Flag meaning is given by its people, not by anyone else. Same applies to any other banner. Most of them still believe it can represent a set of positive qualities in their culture, so let them show that and give them a second chance. You are free to have your opinion on said banner but not the right to force it on others.

Kinda like this huh?

 

[greenlightning]

It is sickening with all that is going on.
Erasing history or trying to change history is not going to change the present or the future.
I wished that all this momentum or movement or whatever it is being called was really put towards good. Like a severe moment to crack down on the crime and drug use and other things of that nature ...to really help society or a moment demanding good health care for all.

I am strongly against the direct this is moving towards where freedom is slowly being removed.

 

[ImaRobot]

It is sickening with all that is going on.
Erasing history or trying to change history is not going to change the present or the future.
I wished that all this momentum or movement or whatever it is being called was really put towards good. Like a severe moment to crack down on the crime and drug use and other things of that nature ...to really help society or a moment demanding good health care for all.

I am strongly against the direct this is moving towards where freedom is slowly being removed.

Don't worry, the history isn't going anywhere just because a video game is removing it from their game. You'll live.

Also, it's the internet. The only freedom you get is what they say you can do within their game. Just the same as this internet forum.

 

[GlamFM]

Let me make sure I'm understanding you clearly. You're advocating for a government enforced ban on flying a flag in public? And you once swore to protect and defend the US Constitution? How on earth do you think that makes sense?

How do you think it doesn´t?

 

[warp9engage]

Kinda like this huh?

View attachment 936005

I don't care what the banner/symbol looks like. What's important is what the people flying it do. If someone came along with that symbol, I'll be suspicious, sure, but if their turn out to be charitable people, I'll start slowly changing my outlook on it, especially if more and more good people are using it.

Anyways, that's a bad example, because that symbol has been condemned by it's original users, and if they don't believe it's redeemable, no one else will.

 

[Joey D]

The Confederate Flag meaning is given by its people, not by anyone else. Same applies to any other banner. Most of them still believe it can represent a set of positive qualities in their culture, so let them show that and give them a second chance. You are free to have your opinion on said banner but not the right to force it on others.

I've already said what values Southerners are proud of and I think those are are all nice things. If that's the new meaning they want the Confederate Flag to have, then that's good.

Now, I don't live in America, so I can't say with absolute certainty what the problems of the South are, unless I go spend a good time living there. But I do know it's never a good idea to paint with a broad brush. That's over 110 million people you're calling uneducated, poor, insane (21 million), drug addicts and racists. Jesus!

I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone. It's an absolute fact that the Confederate States lost the Civil War and were traitors to America, that's not open for interpretation because that's what happened historically. If people want to glorify losers and traitors, then that's their right too. I'm just not going to respect them for it because I don't respect losers and traitors.

And I'm going to pretty much hold onto my opinion about the South because statistically, it's largely true. The drug problem is the only thing that I will admit that I'm off base on. The rest of it though is pretty spot on and backed up by numbers.

 

[ImaRobot]

I don't care what the banner/symbol looks like. What's important is what the people flying it do. If someone came along with that symbol, I'll be suspicious, sure, but if their turn out to be charitable people, I'll start slowly changing my outlook on it, especially if more and more good people are using it.

I wouldn't. Leave the terrible symbolism and groups in the past. Why try to redeem something that has such a stigma? Just leave it at that point.

Anyways, that's a bad example, because that symbol has been condemned by it's original users, and if they don't believe it's redeemable, no one else will

It's actually a pretty fitting.

 

[Kevstah2004]

It is sickening with all that is going on.
Erasing history or trying to change history is not going to change the present or the future.
I wished that all this momentum or movement or whatever it is being called was really put towards good. Like a severe moment to crack down on the crime and drug use and other things of that nature ...to really help society or a moment demanding good health care for all.

I am strongly against the direct this is moving towards where freedom is slowly being removed.

It’s an inbuilt primal defensive reaction to attack those that first appear different to us, it’s just human instinct, hence my comment on if we ever meet aliens in the future, the same problem will arise.

 

[greenlightning]

Don't worry, the history isn't going anywhere just because a video game is removing it from their game. You'll live.

Also, it's the internet. The only freedom you get is what they say you can do within their game. Just the same as this internet forum.

I am speaking more in general removing statues, removing changing names of places, products all because of some misbelieved notion that it will make things better. If things keep going - it would not be surprising if there is not some grass roots movement to remove the US Civil War from history books or other things along those lines.

 

[Dunphy]

I'm from the South and the argument of "heritage not hate" is a bunch of ********. The General Lee (you know named after Robert E Lee) has always been a racist symbol because of name and flag. I understand why people outside the U.S. don't see it that way but here you can't not think of slavery and the oppression of a whole race of people that built up the United States, and the symbol of white supremacy it is.

Like it's literally there to remind any of you minorities that we (the south) sent our husbands, brothers, and sons to die to keep you less than us, think we won't do it again. Have y'all ever heard the phrase, "the south will rise again"? You can bet that person has a confederate flag waving near them.

It doesn't represent southern values, that argument is ********. It's even the Battle Flag of Northern VA, which is not even the South anymore, it's the D.C. metro area.

 

[ImaRobot]

I am speaking more in general removing statues, removing changing names of places, products all because of some misbelieved notion that it will make things better. If things keep going - it would not be surprising if there is not some grass roots movement to remove the US Civil War from history books or other things along those lines.

Well you're on a video game sub-forum about a very specific video game, so it would have been pretty straight-forward to think that maybe you were talking about the game in the thread you're responding to..

As for what you said, I have no problem with removing racism in any form from public places. As for history books, I really don't think it's going anywhere. Why would it?

 

[VBR]

Spoiler: This...

 

[GlamFM]

It is sickening with all that is going on.
Erasing history or trying to change history is not going to change the present or the future.
I wished that all this momentum or movement or whatever it is being called was really put towards good. Like a severe moment to crack down on the crime and drug use and other things of that nature ...to really help society or a moment demanding good health care for all.

I am strongly against the direct this is moving towards where freedom is slowly being removed.

Don’t worry about your history. Nobody will forget about slavery just because you can’t use the flag that symbolizes it anymore. It was simply made a bit harder to glorify it.

Nobody forgot about Germany’s history even though the swastika was banned.

POC playing Forza or watching NASCAR don’t have to look at the flag that stands for the enslavement of their race anymore.

I think that’s pretty cool.

 

[WVStarship]

Good. As an American, and a U.S. Army tank-corps veteran, I've never understood the nonsensical "southern pride" argument over the confederate flag. What are you taking pride in exactly? That your traitor forefathers took up arms against the United States? That your racist forefathers fought a war to try and retain the right to enslave an entire race of people? Sorry boys, I don't see anything to be proud of there. And the most hilarious thing here in the States is seeing these folks flying the confederate flag right alongside the American flag. I'm like, how on earth do you think that makes sense?? lol

The confederate flag should be BANNED in any public forum. Feel free to fly the racist flag in your house, etc. That's your personal business (even if I disagree). The flag should exist in museums and history books. We aren't going to forget or hide our nation's history. We will teach it in our schools and we will continue to learn from our past mistakes (hopefully). But we should not have that traitor flag flying on any school, sporting event, town square, government buildings, etc. Good riddance.

Sorry for the upcoming rant but it should be made clear that there are 2 sides to every coin:

After the Civil War, the South was in ruins, virtually destroyed. During reconstruction Southerners used the flag in question as a symbol of strength and unity to rebuild from the ashes. It was Not the Confederate National Flag. How dare these people try to rebuild!
Their forefathers were traitors only to their tyrant masters to the north. As sovereign states they peacefully left the Union because the divide between the 2 cultures had grown so far that it no longer made sense to stay together. Their northern masters would have none of that and set upon an ethnic cleansing that resulted in the death of over 600,000 people, many of them women and children. The North cared nothing about slavery. It was only after the war effort was going poorly after 2 full years that the Tyrant Lincoln decided that slavery would be a good rallying cry for the useful idiots of the day. It worked. It also worked to keep GB from supporting the South, as GB was strongly anti-slave. To label an entire people as traitors because they fought against a foreign invader is ludicrous. BTW, I am not from the South and my great-great grandfather fought for the North (he was drafted) and died in Andersonville prison ( a Southern prison camp in Georgia).

Any American calling to ban any flag for any reason is not a true American. The idea that Badflounder was in the military is frightening. I always wondered if push came to shove if the Military would back the Tyrants or the People. From his attitude its not looking good.

I never owned a Confederate Flag before, but I'm getting some now. I strongly urge all Americans to get as many of these flags as possible and wave them proudly during the Nation Anthem and at all public events you can possibly attend. Please show the brown-shirt thugs that are infesting this nation we will not accept cultural gynecide in any way, shape or form. LIVE FREE OR DIE!

 

[omgitsbees]

The confederate flag wasn't even popular, well known, or flown by people until the 1960s, a full 100+ years after the American Civil War ended. Its purpose was to send a statement from people who disagreed with the civil rights movement. It is a symbol of hate, as is the confederacy. These relics of America's horrific past belong in a museum and textbooks where they will have actual significant educational value. Not in video games, or on flag polls, and statues. You cannot find a statue anywhere of Hitler, or the swastika flown at any government building in the U.S. and yet everyone knows who this person is, what he did, and how horrible Nazi Germany was.

It blows my mind that people really want to make this a hill that they want to die on. By using the confederate flag, by saying you do not care about this issue, you're sending a message loud and clear that you actively support slavery and racism. It's not about heritage, the confederacy only lasted 5 years, they lost, and were branded traitors that nearly brought down the United States. My emo phase as a teenager lasted longer than this.

The Confederacy was founded on white supremacy, stop defending it, you have no excuse for ignorance on this subject in 2020. At this point anyone defending it is saying they agree that was okay.

 

[Tornado]

From my understading, also according to the polls provided by Famine, most people do take pride in the flag because they're not behind the Civil War meaning of it but, instead, the modern representation of the cultural values of the Southern States. The values are described differently, by different people, but boil down to the following: faith, devotion to family, politeness/good manners, charity and hospitality. Nothing wrong with any of those things, if you ask me.

How many people do you think willingly self-identify as racist?

 

[omgitsbees]

Sorry for the upcoming rant but it should be made clear that there are 2 sides to every coin:

After the Civil War, the South was in ruins, virtually destroyed. During reconstruction Southerners used the flag in question as a symbol of strength and unity to rebuild from the ashes. It was Not the Confederate National Flag. How dare these people try to rebuild!
Their forefathers were traitors only to their tyrant masters to the north. As sovereign states they peacefully left the Union because the divide between the 2 cultures had grown so far that it no longer made sense to stay together. Their northern masters would have none of that and set upon an ethnic cleansing that resulted in the death of over 600,000 people, many of them women and children. The North cared nothing about slavery. It was only after the war effort was going poorly after 2 full years that the Tyrant Lincoln decided that slavery would be a good rallying cry for the useful idiots of the day. It worked. It also worked to keep GB from supporting the South, as GB was strongly anti-slave. To label an entire people as traitors because they fought against a foreign invader is ludicrous. BTW, I am not from the South and my great-great grandfather fought for the North (he was drafted) and died in Andersonville prison ( a Southern prison camp in Georgia).

Any American calling to ban any flag for any reason is not a true American. The idea that Badflounder was in the military is frightening. I always wondered if push came to shove if the Military would back the Tyrants or the People. From his attitude its not looking good.

I never owned a Confederate Flag before, but I'm getting some now. I strongly urge all Americans to get as many of these flags as possible and wave them proudly during the Nation Anthem and at all public events you can possibly attend. Please show the brown-shirt thugs that are infesting this nation we will not accept cultural gynecide in any way, shape or form. LIVE FREE OR DIE!

Man, source the quote of where you got this post and then copy/pasted it here. This is amazing.