Forza Bans Confederate Flags as "Notorious Iconography"

[Johnny Dean]

It won't end until all freedom rights are gone. There already burning our American Flag and many don't say a word. They will ban it that sooner or later as it now offends so many sadly.

I can sort of see where you're coming from, but it's really not what you're thinking.

They're simply not allowing people to flaunt a symbol very clearly associated with historic racism, and overt links to a pro-slavery stance.

If you strongly disagree with that, then you may be a racist. Just consider it, at least.

Also, you need to be clearer who you mean exactly when you say "they" are burning the flag. Do you mean 'black people'...? If so, you just said that "they" are taking away your right to freedom, but the BLM movement is just to enable minority groups the same luxuries of freedom as all other groups, and particularly white people, who generally have it a lot better in America.

No-one is losing anything, it's just some people are gaining something they should morally have had a long, long time ago.

Again, if you strongly disagree with that, then you may be a racist. Think about it a bit more, dammit. And maybe, just maybe, change your mind.

 

[Michael88]

People simply read too much into ancient symbols.

 

[PacNW_GT_64]

"Every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street and building has been renamed, every date has been altered...History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the party is always right." --1984, George Orwell.

If you are looking for something to be offended by, you WILL surely find it.

The problem with bending the knee to a loud but ultimately minuscule woke mob is the that one knee will inevitably become two. These maniacs will never be satisfied, they don't really care about statues or flags, that is starkly evident. What they care about is power. Power for the sake of power. And they see this as an opportunity to somehow lend some twisted meaning to their pathetic little lives. It's the messiah complex in full force. They know best and they are going to save you vulgars from yourselves. never mind that in real life these idjits can't even suss out how to operate a manual can opener.

T10 can do what they want, they have that right. But there are MUCH bigger things at work here, this is just a symptom of the larger disease.

 

[ron24]

Exactly what rights have you lost?

Sorry I should have been more clearer. I wasn't pointing about Game rights or internet rights. I was referring to our constitutional rights in general. It's not about the Flag. It's about trying to take away someone's right to post, speech ect. There not lost yet but we're losing them very fast. Freedom to speech, Freedom to express. I totally understand both sides. To me it's about rebels the good old boys. To those that went that battle I get that. But if we start banning everything we disagree with no one will have the rights to speak up, post ect. It will never stop. It goes way beyond Forza.

 

[ImaRobot]

It's not about the Flag. It's about trying to take away someone's right to post, speech ect. There not lost yet but we're losing them very fast. Freedom to speech, Freedom to express. I totally understand both sides. To me it's about rebels the good old boys. To those that went that battle I get that. But if we start banning everything we disagree with no one will have the rights to speak up, post ect. It will never stop. It goes way beyond Forza.

It's a video game, you don't have any rights within it. Only what they allow you to do which they can change when they want.

Much in the same way that you don't have rights on an internet forum either.

 

[ron24]

These are two conflicting statements.

No there not. People want the American flag gone, banned ect. They are burning it and if they have there way as it offends someone our flag will go away.

I can sort of see where you're coming from, but it's really not what you're thinking.

They're simply not allowing people to flaunt a symbol very clearly associated with historic racism, and overt links to a pro-slavery stance.

If you strongly disagree with that, then you may be a racist. Just consider it, at least.

Also, you need to be clearer who you mean exactly when you say "they" are burning the flag. Do you mean 'black people'...? If so, you just said that "they" are taking away your right to freedom, but the BLM movement is just to enable minority groups the same luxuries of freedom as all other groups, and particularly white people, who generally have it a lot better in America.

No-one is losing anything, it's just some people are gaining something they should morally have had a long, long time ago.

Again, if you strongly disagree with that, then you may be a racist. Think about it a bit more, dammit. And maybe, just maybe, change your mind.

Sorry I should have been more clearer. I wasn't pointing about Game rights or internet rights. I was referring to our constitutional rights in general. Second I said nothing about blacks. My grandson is a black and cute. God made us all. Maybe you might want to think before you put the word racist. There are many colors of people wanting to see our American flag gone. Nothing to to do with RACE. Its Sin Hate not a color problem. Point is if we ban or tear down everything that offends someone where does it stop. I get and understand what they went through. If I had that flag and knew I offended someone I would remove it. But demanding things to be removed at they rate are were all heading down a very bad road.

 

[Johnny Dean]

"Every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street and building has been renamed, every date has been altered...History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the party is always right." --1984, George Orwell.

The problem with bending the knee to a loud but ultimately minuscule woke mob is the that one knee will inevitably become two. These maniacs will never be satisfied, they don't really care about statues or flags, that is starkly evident. What they care about is power. Power for the sake of power. And they see this as an opportunity to somehow lend some twisted meaning to their pathetic little lives. It's the messiah complex in full force. They know best and they are going to save you vulgars from yourselves. never mind that in real life these idjits can't even suss out how to operate a manual can opener.

T10 can do what they want, they have that right. But there are MUCH bigger things at work here, this is just a symptom of the larger disease.

Don't know where to start here, this is so full of nonsense rage, but that 1984 quote is anti-communist, it is meant to criticise the very literal erasing of history, that communist regimes rely on to maintain their false legitimacy.

No-one is erasing history by removing statues, confederate flags, it's simply trying to restrict as much as possible the promotion and flaunting of symbols that are strongly associated with racism and pro-slavery stances.

The rest of your rhetoric is as close as you can possibly get to saying "I hate black people" without using that phrase.

Why don't you just say it?

 

[VBR]

Damn, people get offended by everything nowadays. That's lame

"Every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street and building has been renamed, every date has been altered...History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the party is always right." --1984, George Orwell.

If you are looking for something to be offended by, you WILL surely find it.

The problem with bending the knee to a loud but ultimately minuscule woke mob is the that one knee will inevitably become two. These maniacs will never be satisfied, they don't really care about statues or flags, that is starkly evident. What they care about is power. Power for the sake of power. And they see this as an opportunity to somehow lend some twisted meaning to their pathetic little lives. It's the messiah complex in full force. They know best and they are going to save you vulgars from yourselves. never mind that in real life these idjits can't even suss out how to operate a manual can opener.

T10 can do what they want, they have that right. But there are MUCH bigger things at work here, this is just a symptom of the larger disease.

Agree 100%, & we all know where it's coming from...

 

[ron24]

It's a video game, you don't have any rights within it. Only what they allow you to do which they can change when they want.

Much in the same way that you don't have rights on an internet forum either.

Sorry I should have been more clearer. I wasn't pointing about Game rights or internet rights. I was referring to our constitutional rights in general. Right or wrong the USA is removing a lot of things because people of all nationalities types are demanding them to be removed for many different reasons. It won't stop until we have no more constitutional rights. Yes Forza has the right do do as it pleases I agree. Yes this forum has the right to do as is pleases.

 

[PacNW_GT_64]

Don't know where to start here, this is so full of nonsense rage, but that 1984 quote is anti-communist, it is meant to criticise the very literal erasing of history, that communist regimes rely on to maintain their false legitimacy.

"We actually do have an ideological frame... we are trained Marxists." - Patrisse Cullors, Co-Founder, Black Lives Matter

No-one is erasing history by removing statues, confederate flags, it's simply trying to restrict as much as possible the promotion and flaunting of symbols that are strongly associated with racism and pro-slavery stances.

Umm, that's exactly what they are trying to do. A mob in Wisconsin tore down one statue called "Forward," the state motto, and another of Col. Hans Christian Heg, an abolitionist who died fighting for the Union in the Civil War, and dragged them into Lake Monona. Wisconsin is one of the most liberal states in the US.

They tore down the statue of a noted abolitionist who died fighting to end slavery, and this is not the only one. This is not about law enforcement or anything else they want you to think it is. This is about radical left-wing Marxists/Maoists trying to undermine everything about America and using the uneducated and indoctrinated to do their dirty work.

The rest of your rhetoric is as close as you can possibly get to saying "I hate black people" without using that phrase.

Why don't you just say it?

Typical, and predictable.

The safe harbor for all liberals when they have no viable counter-argument to make. Just call everyone who disagrees with you a racist, because facts hurt and thinking is hard.

 

[ImaRobot]

Sorry I should have been more clearer. I wasn't pointing about Game rights or internet rights. I was referring to our constitutional rights in general. Right or wrong the USA is removing a lot of things because people of all nationalities types are demanding them to be removed for many different reasons. It won't stop until we have no more constitutional rights. Yes Forza has the right do do as it pleases I agree. Yes this forum has the right to do as is pleases.

You were clear enough, I was just proving a point that nothing a video game does is affecting your rights, whatsoever. Right or wrong? Even then, removing racists symbolism is not the same as removing your rights to free speech - you're still very much able to talk about it however you want.

Umm, that's exactly what they are trying to do. A mob in Wisconsin tore down one statue called "Forward," the state motto, and another of Col. Hans Christian Heg, an abolitionist who died fighting for the Union in the Civil War, and dragged them into Lake Monona. Wisconsin is one of the most liberal states in the US.

They tore down the statue of a noted abolitionist who died fighting to end slavery, and this is not the only one. This is not about law enforcement or anything else they want you to think it is. This is about radical left-wing Marxists/Maoists trying to undermine everything about America and using the uneducated and indoctrinated to do their dirty work.

So the history no longer exists because the statue was destroyed?

 

[Johnny Dean]

"We actually do have an ideological frame... we are trained Marxists." - Patrisse Cullors, Co-Founder, Black Lives Matter



Umm, that's exactly what they are trying to do. A mob in Wisconsin tore down one statue called "Forward," the state motto, and another of Col. Hans Christian Heg, an abolitionist who died fighting for the Union in the Civil War, and dragged them into Lake Monona. Wisconsin is one of the most liberal states in the US.

They tore down the statue of a noted abolitionist who died fighting to end slavery, and this is not the only one. This is not about law enforcement or anything else they want you to think it is. This is about radical left-wing Marxists/Maoists trying to undermine everything about America and using the uneducated and indoctrinated to do their dirty work.



Typical, and predictable.

The safe harbor for all liberals when they have no viable counter-argument to make. Just call everyone who disagrees with you a racist, because facts hurt and thinking is hard.

Again, how exactly is the tearing down of a symbol of history, erasing it? I'd say it brings a whole lot more awareness of the statue and it's historical reason to exist.

In the UK, the mayor of Bristol supported the tearing down of a slaver statue, removed it from the river where it was dumped, and kept it to display in a museum, which emphasises history. The literal opposite of erasing.

And a tonne more people now know a whole lot more about the history behind it's erection and longevity now. Education is being accrued, not removed.

 

[Sage Ages]

It's a PR move. The only reason that this ban exists is to remove Microsoft/Turn 10/Playground from future controversy. That's it.

The flag itself is irrelevant. Historical context is irrelevant. All that matters here is that it's a controversial image that a considerable amount of people take offense to. They're not interested in politics. They're not interested in stomping on your nonexistent rights. All they're doing is removing themselves from a situation that they don't want to deal with.

 

[dlshearon]

I need an eating popcorn emoji.

Ignorance and hypocrisy is plentiful on this subject.
People throwing large amounts of other people under a blanket just cause where they come from.
“Terrible“ Generals that once lead the Union Armies before the Civil War and tactics derived from said Generals that were still used until recent times.

Keyboard warriors calling people racists because they don’t agree with a persons view. SMH

Orwell’s 84 was a warning, doesn’t mean it can’t apply to a Capitalist country.

Maybe ya’ll should move this topic to the rabbit hole of opinions & current events.

The world needs to sit down, smoke a joint and drink a beer.
Have a great day everyone

 

[PacNW_GT_64]

So the history no longer exists because the statue was destroyed?

Sure it does, that's not the point. The point is that the mob does not get to dictate such things through violence, intimidation, and wanton illegal destruction. I don't care how fecking offended you are by them. That's not how a country of laws works.

Consider this: Sen. Robert Byrd served longer in the US Congress than any other person, he was also the last know and documented KKK member to serve in Congress. Not only was he a member of that notorious organization but a leader and recruiter for it. He filibustered the 1965 Civil Rights act, i.e. He fought tooth and nail to deny black folks their rights under the law. He did this along with Al Gore Sr. (Yes the father of the future VP & candidate).

Hillary Clinton called him her 'friend and mentor in the senate'. Many prominent Democrats eulogized him at his funeral including Bill Clinton himself. Bill dismissed his KKK membership as simply a country boy "trying to get elected".

Oddly, there was never ANY calls for him to resign from the Senate, there are numerous buildings in WV that bear his name including highways and prisons, yet there are no call to rename those building nor to take down his statue which stands in a place of honor in the WV capitol building.

I certainly won(D)er why that is so, maybe it's (D)ifferent somehow??? What (D)o you think?

 

[ImaRobot]

Sure it does, that's not the point. The point is that the mob does not get to dictate such things through violence, intimidation, and wanton illegal destruction. I don't care how fecking offended you are by them. That's not how a country of laws works.

I mean, if the laws worked as well as you're making it out to be, I'm not so sure we'd be in such a fiasco to begin with.

 

[warp9engage]

It seems that I’m not communicating well my opinion on this topic. I was writing my previous posts during small breaks at work and therefore was not expressing myself in the most eloquent manner. I got excessively invested in the argument and ended up deviating from the core issue that I’m bothered by. Now, with some rest and more time to think things through, here is my definitive opinion, hopefully better written.

I do not agree with this action by Turn 10, not because I hold the item banned in any kind of special regard, but because I see this as a part of a much bigger picture.

Granted, Turn 10, being a private company, can choose what is allowed to be displayed and what isn’t, in a legal sense. However, there’s an argument to be made that, with them providing a large platform that allows for millions to interact and express themselves through liveries and designs, Turn 10 has an above average degree of social responsibility in allowing members, of their community, the ability to express diverse opinions and positions, even if some may be disagreeable to other members or themselves.

By doing this, Turn 10 is effectively adding fuel to the fire of the so called ‘cancel culture’.

Proponents of this ‘culture’, are a part of the individuals who believe in changing society into one massive safe-space, where no one ever comes across something that causes them discomfort. This is impossible to achieve, as what is deemed offensive varies wildly from person to person. Yet, this is exactly what is being striven towards and the only result is unparalleled censorship.

One only needs to look at the alarmingly growing list of designated hate-symbols, by organizations like the ADL, to see how quickly this spreads from genuinely oppressive imagery, to simple numbers like ‘13’ and ‘511’, to certain hairstyles like the bowl cut, to certain gestures that are, for the vast majority, innocent like the ‘OK’ sign. This happening, often, due the opinions of a small minority.

While they do say that these are only hate-symbols in specific contexts, determining context can be very difficult. Who’s to say that a person who puts their door number, on their racecars, as ‘511’, isn’t trying to send some kind of subliminal message? Unless you can access that person’s mind or interrogate them, you have no way to know. Algorithms are incapable of detecting context and humans can misinterpret it due to personal bias. That’s why, when a symbol can be used in non-offensive displays and context is difficult to find, as can be the case in a car livery, it is best to just give people the benefit of the doubt and let things be, until their intentions become clear.

By allowing certain things to be banned, Turn 10 is risking opening a Pandora’s Box. The people who complain the most about these symbols never settle, they will continue to ask for more and more restrictions, first for themselves not to feel offended, then for their friends not to be offended, then for their friend’s friends, then for their larger community and so on, so forth.

Turn 10 should look at the deeper motivations behind what is being asked of them, and not play with this dangerous ideology.

And that’s it. I hold no love or hate for the Confederate Flag, but I believe there’s a matter of upholding a principal.

 

[ron24]

You were clear enough, I was just proving a point that nothing a video game does is affecting your rights, whatsoever. Right or wrong? Even then, removing racists symbolism is not the same as removing your rights to free speech - you're still very much able to talk about it however you want.


So the history no longer exists because the statue was destroyed?

Yes we agree on game rights. Freedom of Speech is already under attack. For now We can speak freely. Its groups that Want POWER and division. These people are only using these symbols or flags , statues as the base to gain power. They car less about what sadly many in history suffered.

 

[PacNW_GT_64]

I mean, if the laws worked as well as you're making it out to be, I'm not so sure we'd be in such a fiasco to begin with.

Not sure what point you are trying to make here. It's illegal to buy or carry a firearm in the city of Chicago. Notwithstanding the fact that murder & attempted murder are illegal in all 50 states. Please see below.

 

[Joey D]

Yes we agree on game rights. Freedom of Speech is already under attack. For now We can speak freely. Its groups that Want POWER and division. These people are only using these symbols or flags , statues as the base to gain power. They car less about what sadly many in history suffered.

A private company banning something is not violating your rights to freedom of speech under the Constitution. A private company can do whatever it wants on its platform.

 

[Johnny Dean]

Sure it does, that's not the point. The point is that the mob does not get to dictate such things through violence, intimidation, and wanton illegal destruction. I don't care how fecking offended you are by them. That's not how a country of laws works.

Consider this: Sen. Robert Byrd served longer in the US Congress than any other person, he was also the last know and documented KKK member to serve in Congress. Not only was he a member of that notorious organization but a leader and recruiter for it. He filibustered the 1965 Civil Rights act, i.e. He fought tooth and nail to deny black folks their rights under the law. He did this along with Al Gore Sr. (Yes the father of the future VP & candidate).

Hillary Clinton called him her 'friend and mentor in the senate'. Many prominent Democrats eulogized him at his funeral including Bill Clinton himself. Bill dismissed his KKK membership as simply a country boy "trying to get elected".

Oddly, there was never ANY calls for him to resign from the Senate, there are numerous buildings in WV that bear his name including highways and prisons, yet there are no call to rename those building nor to take down his statue which stands in a place of honor in the WV capitol building.

I certainly won(D)er why that is so, maybe it's (D)ifferent somehow??? What (D)o you think?

But the great thing about democracies is that laws can be changed. And those laws only get changed over very long periods of time, or flashpoints where a particular issue is brought into focus - the Suffragettes for women's right to vote, Stonewall for gay rights, Civil Rights protests for equality - they all involved what you call 'mobs', violently protesting. It's called civil unrest. And they all achieved huge positive change for the country in gaining or moving towards equality for people who didn't happen to be straight white men. That is a good thing! Straight white men aren't losing anything, it's just that other people are gaining something. Why would you be against that?

Hell, even America itself was formed by an armed 'mob' violently resisting a bunch of Brits over some tea. Are you against that too? Pretty unpatriotic to say that, I'd wager.

Yet people pulling down a statue of a literal slave trading, human trafficking monster, is immoral because... Why?

 

[ImaRobot]

Yes we agree on game rights. Freedom of Speech is already under attack. For now We can speak freely. Its groups that Want POWER and division. These people are only using these symbols or flags , statues as the base to gain power. They car less about what sadly many in history suffered.

Freedom of speech isn't under attack and isn't going anywhere. You can still be a racist, and blurt things out loud if you want to. I'm also speaking generally here, I'm not calling you a racist.

 

[Tornado]

People will get offended at anything these days. Now they even complain about iconography specifically repurposed as a rallying cry for suppressing the Civil Rights movement.



PC culture smh

 

[Sage Ages]

Let's say I invited one of you fine gentlemen into my house. If you said something that I found to be rude or offensive or whatever, I would ask you to leave.

That's what's going on here. Forza is Microsoft/T10/PG's house. You are a guest. They make the rules. If you don't adhere to those rules, they have to right to deal with you as they see fit. It's that simple.

 

[ron24]

A private company banning something is not violating your rights to freedom of speech under the Constitution. A private company can do whatever it wants on its platform.

If you read what I posted you would have seen I agree with what you said. Nothing to do with Game rights. Talking about the real world rights.

 

[Joey D]

If you read what I posted you would have seen I agree with what you said. Nothing to do with Game rights. Talking about the real world rights.

Even then, it's still not limiting your freedom of speech nor is it attacking it. It's a private company doing something, nothing more. The same goes for any form of censorship. As long as it's not the government doing it, then it's not an attack on freedom of speech. If I owned a business and barred anyone from entering wearing a shirt with a Confederate flag on it, I can do that. I'm not infringing on their right to freedom of speech in the slightest.

 

[ron24]

Freedom of speech isn't under attack and isn't going anywhere. You can still be a racist, and blurt things out loud if you want to. I'm also speaking generally here, I'm not calling you a racist.

Its ok to disagree. Well it sure looks that way. If you are calling me racist it's your freedom to do so but 100% not. And as a Believer IN Christ I got no place for anyone who is racist. My gripe is about real world rights trying to be taken away from all of us. Nothing to to do with this flag. Yes if We all stand up our rights will stay put. If we dont look out.

Even then, it's still not limiting your freedom of speech nor is it attacking it. It's a private company doing something, nothing more. The same goes for any form of censorship. As long as it's not the government doing it, then it's not an attack on freedom of speech. If I owned a business and barred anyone from entering wearing a shirt with a Confederate flag on it, I can do that. I'm not infringing on their right to freedom of speech in the slightest.

I 100% with what your saying. I should have been more clearer. I was referring to the Government trying to take our rights as a hole. Nothing to do with T10 or any business .Sadly wish I never got into posting into this mess.

 

[Johnny Dean]

Its ok to disagree. Well it sure looks that way. If you are calling me racist it's your freedom to do so but 100% not. And as a Believer IN Christ I got no place for anyone who is racist. My gripe is about real world rights trying to be taken away from all of us. Nothing to to do with this flag. Yes if We all stand up our rights will stay put. If we dont look out.

Stand up against who? Who exactly is "taking your rights"...?

 

[ImaRobot]

Its ok to disagree. Well it sure looks that way. If you are calling me racist it's your freedom to do so but 100% not. And as a Believer IN Christ I got no place for anyone who is racist. My gripe is about real world rights trying to be taken away from all of us. Nothing to to do with this flag. Yes if We all stand up our rights will stay put. If we dont look out.

Except I'm literally not calling you a racist, and if you think I have, then you are mistaken.

Your rights aren't going anywhere, nor is anything infringing on them. You can still go outside and say whatever you please.

 

[ron24]

Except I'm literally not calling you a racists, and if you think I have, then you are mistaken.

Your rights aren't going anywhere, nor is anything infringing on them. You can still go outside and say whatever you please.

Fair enough I take your word. Pray your right. Moving on.