Forza Horizon 4: General Discussion

[Outspacer]

The worst part is how the challenges that hand out a lot of XP are the popular ones that usually require no effort, whereas the fun challenges people spent hours creating often aren’t getting their share of deserved attention, and thereby give virtually no XP.

Couldn't agree more! However, I don't have any really good ideas for anything better - basing it on time/distance doesn't seem fair either, since a long one could still be set extremely easy, while a short one can be an interesting challenge. If there was a leaderboard for each then perhaps that could be used, but of course it would only work once enough people have played the challenge. Wreckfest's weekly/monthly tournaments pay out at the end of the week/month of the event, which works OK, but doesn't fit Horizon's player's need for instant gratification

Playing the Super 7 and burning cards I found mostly awful, and unrewarding. Choosing events that were not using custom world from the New tab was generally much better, since silly and deliberately easy ones are fairly easy to spot and avoid. Still, only a handful got a like from me. Doubt I'll return to it (aside from any codes shared here) unless they add an easier way to filter for the ones I might enjoy. I don't mean to sound bitter - I'm sure plenty of people will have fun with the huge ramps and skateparks etc, it's just not my bag

 

[pez2k]

AFAIK only Forza tires have been available before - or am I wrong?

The Chevrolet Monte Carlo has special race tyres too, I believe they're in period NASCAR style.

 

[Nielsen]

Couldn't agree more! However, I don't have any really good ideas for anything better - basing it on time/distance doesn't seem fair either, since a long one could still be set extremely easy, while a short one can be an interesting challenge.

Fair point. I guess there are ways to exploit nearly any approach. Perhaps the biggest issue is the fact the XP amount tied to unpopular challenges is those mere 200 points. Make it 1000 or 2000, and all the incentives to exploit the imbalanced grind wouldn’t be nearly as big.

 

[PJTierney]

It's a tricky one to solve really, as any goal-oriented player will attempt to "optimise the fun out of a game" by finding the most efficient method of achieving their goal (and for some, the optimisation is the fun).

There are several "goals" at play here, such as the Tier levels, car unlocks and Xbox Achievements, and as the game is primarily designed to make players want to unlock these things, it's not unreasonable to assume people will find the fastest, most efficient ways of doing so.

I'm not a game designer and I don't have a solution, but I'm sure it's something that was considered in development before Playground settled on the Influence/Reward system in place for Super7.

Good video on the topic here:

 

[the13PeSK]

The Chevrolet Monte Carlo has special race tyres too, I believe they're in period NASCAR style.

Yeah, I forgot about them. But still, those Michelin tyres are not kind of standard for 155 I guess...

 

[GTvsForza]

The Chevrolet Monte Carlo has special race tyres too, I believe they're in period NASCAR style.

The Vulcan AMR has Michelins as well.

 

[Outspacer]

Fair point. I guess there are ways to exploit nearly any approach. Perhaps the biggest issue is the fact the XP amount tied to unpopular challenges is those mere 200 points. Make it 1000 or 2000, and all the incentives to exploit the imbalanced grind wouldn’t be nearly as big.

Absolutely, 200 for doing a challenge is an insult when taking the 5200 route still takes a while to get the two cars currently on offer. TBH, a fixed amount per challenge is the fairest I can think of. Challenges where I got between 1500 and 2500 seemed about right - moved the bar up noticably, but not too fast.

I have to wonder if the 5200 is a bug - a divide by zero leading to infinity that then gets capped to the max?

It's a tricky one to solve really, as any goal-oriented player will attempt to "optimise the fun out of a game" by finding the most efficient method of achieving their goal (and for some, the optimisation is the fun).

There are several "goals" at play here, such as the Tier levels, car unlocks and Xbox Achievements, and as the game is primarily designed to make players want to unlock these things, it's not unreasonable to assume people will find the fastest, most efficient ways of doing so.

I'm not a game designer and I don't have a solution, but I'm sure it's something that was considered in development before Playground settled on the Influence/Reward system in place for Super7.

I dunno about the first point, I can only really speak for myself... but when a goal requires much grinding, sure, I'll optimise the hell out of it! If not, I'll usually play the way I'll find the most enjoyable with only a secondary focus on the goal.

I'm sure they did consider some of these things, we can safely assume that, but in any design process (game or otherwise) there is a tendancy to concentrate much more on how you'd like something to be used. Then the testers are let loose to try all the other devious ways they can think of and report back, and it's not always viable to address misuse problems found in testing if they think it might negatively affect the intended mode of use (politics, egos and deadlines all play a role here too).

As the video mentioned, it was xcom 2 that introduced a mechanism to prevent players 'doing it wrong' as they did in xcom 1 - the designers of xcom 1 didn't preemptively consider it. Not only that, but they were then to harsh with their remedy and had to loosen it off for the expansions. (I'm not trying to knock them, rather I'd applaud them for taking the feedback from players on board).

 

[sirjim73]

I have won my first Backstage Pass today. I would like to use it wisely, on the rarest car available - is anyone able to advise please. Thanks

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

I honestly don't play Cyberpunk nor had an interest in it, but that car is a pretty nice design. It gives me the same vibe that a lot of 80s and early 90s supercars gave. With it's wedge shape based design.

It makes me hope for the Cizeta V16t and Vector W8 TwinTurbo to make their way into Forza someday.

 

[strela]

I have won my first Backstage Pass today. I would like to use it wisely, on the rarest car available - is anyone able to advise please. Thanks

If it was me I would go for the Ferrari 599XX Evo. It's almost impossible to get one on the AH and in my opinion is the best car for jumps, speed zones and speed traps. It's just ridiculously fast. You will easily beat any personal record on tarmac.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Does anyone else use the 2004 Porsche 911 GT3? I cannot for the life of me get that car to not handle like a total disaster. I really tried to tune out the wild straight-line oversteer but I cannot get it to go away. The 997 GT3 RS 4.0 (not to mention all of the other 911s) handles just fine, so I thought I'd apply the exact same suspension settings thinking they are pretty much the same car, but it doesn't help. The 996 car just has zero high speed and transitional stability, and that's under full throttle where an RR car should be planted! The rear immediately steps out on initial turn in, especially at high speed - I would think that a 911 would have turn understeer in non lift-off/braking situations. I even tried maxing out the rear tire size compared to the fronts but it still has the same problem. It feels like either the steering lock is bugged (like the car goes to full lock too fast, regardless of deadzone settings) or the center of mass is like 6 feet behind the car or the rear end grip has some arbitrary cap ...I really wonder if there is some hard-coded fault with it. I did manage to improve the stability slightly with the "Forza ugly ass rear wing®" set to maximum rear downforce, but it was only a marginal improvement.

While the 996 GT3 is especially egregious, the Forza engine in general has comical levels of high speed oversteer, and it's been that way since FM1. It really feels like the physics engine is contrived with cars assigned pre-defined handling characteristics and the telemetry and tuning are mostly set dressing, the cars just feel wrong. I've never tried Forza with a wheel, so maybe that improves the model significantly. But Forza just feels a million miles away from Assetto Corsa which actually feels like cars with working suspension and rubber tires and weight transfer

 

[Nielsen]

I dunno about the first point, I can only really speak for myself... but when a goal requires much grinding, sure, I'll optimise the hell out of it! If not, I'll usually play the way I'll find the most enjoyable with only a secondary focus on the goal.

Agreed. I want to obtain the two cars as much as everyone else, but I do find myself avoiding the oversimplified challenges guaranteed to provide a boost in XP progression.

 

[Stang616]

These small Influence payouts sure make it feel like a grind to get the TR7.

The New challenges tab will net 5200 Influence per challenge. I was able to pick up the TR7 in an hour or so from Level 3.

 

[VXR]

The New challenges tab will net 5200 Influence per challenge. I was able to pick up the TR7 in an hour or so from Level 3.

It hasn't been for me. The best I got from a new challenge was less than 2,000 influence.

 

[PJTierney]

It hasn't been for me. The best I got from a new challenge was less than 2,000 influence.

Look for ones nobody has played; the icons in the top left tell you how many plays/likes each one has had.

 

[GBalao888]

Picked up my Quadra Turbo-R V-Tech and I'd really have to say, despite the extremely wide tires, the car tends to be really unstable, even at high speed. Gotta love its raw power and V10 sound though.

 

[sirjim73]

If it was me I would go for the Ferrari 599XX Evo. It's almost impossible to get one on the AH and in my opinion is the best car for jumps, speed zones and speed traps. It's just ridiculously fast. You will easily beat any personal record on tarmac.

Thanks for the tip

Acquired and disappearing off into the distance......

 

[VXR]

Look for ones nobody has played; the icons in the top left tell you how many plays/likes each one has had.

I fear mine wasn't working as intended, because I only ever saw an icon with a controller and a number 1 overlaid on the challenge, and that was perhaps on two or three at most.

 

[Outspacer]

I fear mine wasn't working as intended, because I only ever saw an icon with a controller and a number 1 overlaid on the challenge, and that was perhaps on two or three at most.

No icons showing should mean it hasn't been played. No idea how it works if someone else finishes it before you do, but did notice that if I quit from one then it still didn't have the icon - so presumably it counts a play after completion.

 

[Turboteg90]

The AMG hammer is pure joy stock with a wide body and some dark tinted windows.

 

[Nielsen]

Does anyone else use the 2004 Porsche 911 GT3? I cannot for the life of me get that car to not handle like a total disaster. I really tried to tune out the wild straight-line oversteer but I cannot get it to go away. The 997 GT3 RS 4.0 (not to mention all of the other 911s) handles just fine, so I thought I'd apply the exact same suspension settings thinking they are pretty much the same car, but it doesn't help. The 996 car just has zero high speed and transitional stability, and that's under full throttle where an RR car should be planted! The rear immediately steps out on initial turn in, especially at high speed - I would think that a 911 would have turn understeer in non lift-off/braking situations. I even tried maxing out the rear tire size compared to the fronts but it still has the same problem. It feels like either the steering lock is bugged (like the car goes to full lock too fast, regardless of deadzone settings) or the center of mass is like 6 feet behind the car or the rear end grip has some arbitrary cap ...I really wonder if there is some hard-coded fault with it. I did manage to improve the stability slightly with the "Forza ugly ass rear wing®" set to maximum rear downforce, but it was only a marginal improvement.

While the 996 GT3 is especially egregious, the Forza engine in general has comical levels of high speed oversteer, and it's been that way since FM1. It really feels like the physics engine is contrived with cars assigned pre-defined handling characteristics and the telemetry and tuning are mostly set dressing, the cars just feel wrong. I've never tried Forza with a wheel, so maybe that improves the model significantly. But Forza just feels a million miles away from Assetto Corsa which actually feels like cars with working suspension and rubber tires and weight transfer

Apply a partial throttle technique when cornering MR and RR layout cars, especially those which don’t produce a lot of downforce like the 996 GT3. In most situations partial throttle helps keeping the cornering balance in check, and this is also true in the real world. Full throttle can quickly prove overkill in powerful cars that don’t have many high-downforce aero parts on them.

 

[TheAdmiester]

Apply a partial throttle technique when cornering MR and RR layout cars, especially those which don’t produce a lot of downforce like the 996 GT3. In most situations partial throttle helps keeping the cornering balance in check, and this is also true in the real world. Full throttle can quickly prove overkill in powerful cars that don’t have many high-downforce aero parts on them.

To add to this I'd say it's also worth explaining that the opposite is also overkill in RR cars - when you let off the throttle hard you're encouraging the front end to dive in quickly in a "twisting" motion. This will start to swing the back end out, and in a car where all the weight is in the rear, this can quickly get out of hand.

This is why it's important to find a throttle sweet spot: little enough so that you don't spin the rear wheels, but enough so that the nose is still slightly up and planting the rear tires hard into the ground.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I should have emphasized straight line more. I understand the concept with driving MR and RR cars (I mean, I hope I do, I own one IRL ), but the 996 GT3 in the game is just really bad. What I'm talking about is minor corrections on straight roads with consistent throttle result in wild tank slappers. There should be very minor weight transfer happening in these situations, but the GT3 just loses its ass. Maybe it wasn't clear in my first post, but this *not* wheelspin induced oversteer, this is purely momentum. Again, the 997 GT3 drives totally fine and handles like I would expect, and that car has significantly more power. Most of the cars I drive in the game are MR or RR (most of them Porsches). I tested various setups for the 996 on one of the games roundabouts and the steady state balance of the car (depending on the suspension tuning) is actually almost neutral, with slight understeer. The car is mostly OK in actual cornering, being mindful of the lift-off oversteer - it can actually power out of corners pretty well, it's the total lack of stability during something like a high speed slalom that feels broken to me. That's why I feel like the steering lock or linearity might be to blame. Can someone else drive it and let me know their thoughts?

edit: I should add, there is no reasonable way that downforce and traction should be related on a 360hp car. What I mean by that is there is not enough HP involved for traction to be an issue at speeds high enough for downforce to be a factor. The problem could be aero but only if the standard parameters are cartoonishly wrong (like a ton of front downforce with none in the rear). Maybe I just need to get over how ugly the Forza wing is and add it...it's ridiculous because the OEM GT3 wing should be adjustable...

edit 2: Just thought I'd add, I drive with no assists and simulation steering. I find nearly all cars in the game to be totally manageable (well, the ones under 600hp anyways). There's a handful that feel off to me.

 

[VXR]

It's a shame about the 996, because it felt fantastic in Forza 6, where it was really quite understeer prone if you didn't lean into a corner properly. Once you got it dancing, oversteer was a ballet you controlled.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Found two videos that pretty succinctly describes what I'm talking about

Go to 8:30


Go to 4:45


I refuse to believe that a 911 under some throttle load, with aero, at 140mph+ would oversteer like that. Until the pendulum effect is underway, a 911's natural tendency will be to understeer because there is no weight over the front tires. If this were the real world, I could only imagine this result if there was an enormous disparity between front and rear downforce or rear tires with no grip (or comical toe-out settings in the rear). This problem is not unique to the 996 GT3 within the Forza physics engine, but it does provide a pretty outlandish example of it. Rear wheel drive cars in Forza, to me, behave as if the front tires are actually not doing the steering. Rather it feels like there is an arbitrary pivot point (probably at the center of mass) that the car is then rotated around via some X-axis (with respect to the car) force vector positioned some arbitrary Y-distance (call it radius of rotation) from the CoM. This is the only way I can see such high-speed oversteer being so prevalent in the game. Momentum, I would think, would tend to dictate that the front tires should lose grip first at such speeds in almost all situations.

 

[Silver_Wolf]

Ok so having spent the last three nights with Forza Horiuzon 4 I'm converted to the cause and I've been working hard on Series 29 playlist tonight as I just noticed the Rover SD1 is available for 80% completion.

I don't think I'll manage it but can someone help me with what's needed for the Photo objective and which retro car should I buy for the story chapter, I see the 911 is pictured so was thinking to go with that but what else do I need for that tab on the festival list?

 

[Populuxe]

Ok so having spent the last three nights with Forza Horiuzon 4 I'm converted to the cause and I've been working hard on Series 29 playlist tonight as I just noticed the Rover SD1 is available for 80% completion.

I don't think I'll manage it but can someone help me with what's needed for the Photo objective and which retro car should I buy for the story chapter, I see the 911 is pictured so was thinking to go with that but what else do I need for that tab on the festival list?

I believe the only thing you need for the photo challenge is to take a photo of any cult car. You can sort the cars by type. I used my VW Beetle. I used the McLaren F1 for the weekly challenge. It took a lot of horsepower and a long build up, but I finally got 225 mph on the Roman Mile speed trap. I started from the east and went west. Be extra smooth on the last two corners leading to the long straight so you're going as fast as you possibly can. That was the only one that took a bit of work.

 

[maxi25]

Agree about power for the weekly challenge. I used my twin turbo Saleen S7 replica with 750 hp and came up short by about 15 mph. Hitting it again with max upgrades allowed me to pass the chapter.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Been reading a lot of how the Forza physics engine and it's gamepad buffers work. It seems like the engine, even with simulation steering enabled has the ability to modify the steering lock and possibly even grip multipliers for the front axle to smooth out corner entry. This is obviously necessary because you have about 1/2" of thumstick travel to correspond with a center-lock range (which is like 450 degrees of rotation!) of the actual steering wheel. So here's what I think is happening.

-At high speed turn-in with a 911, the front tires are going to be extremely sensitive to losing grip because they have such little weight over them
-The game provides a 'buff' to the amount of lock requested by the player, slowing down the input
-At the same time, I THINK the game gives a proportional, momentary amount of extra grip to the front axle, effectively pinning it to the ground
-The rear axle receives no such parameter adjustment and is left twisting in the wind, literally
-If the game is not modifying grip values, I think it is adding yaw to compensate for the understeer.

Basically, I think the game is trying to compensate for what would be a huge amount of initial turn-in understeer by dramatically increasing front tire grip momentarily. This would explain why the car actually handles reasonably well once it's taken a set in a corner and why it behaves largely as expected on my roundabout test. It's the control buffers screwing with things. All of this I think explains why cars start to feel more unrealistic the fast you go in Forza games, and why I'm typically down in the B, C, and D classes. The control buffers just distort things more and more the fast you are going. I'm gonna do a test later with the telemetry on to see if my theory has any merit.

During testing, Greenawalt noticed people liked to tap the analogue stick of the controller in the opposite direction of the turn to incrementally adjust their angle. “If you go full opposite lock with the steering wheel every half second like this, the car is gonna be out of control,” he says. “So we put a buffer between the controller and the physics layer.” This buffer compensates for the player tapping the stick, ensuring the car doesn’t spin out when they do.

“The other strategy is having clamps and scales on how much yaw, which is the torque of the car, can be applied to the spinning skater. Using these clamps, we can slow a car down without changing the moment of inertia. When you play with simulation steering you turn this feature off, as well as a lot of the buffers, but even I have trouble playing Forza like this with a [gamepad’s] thumbstick.”

I realize that simulation steering is meant to deactivate all these buffers, but if you look at your telemetry while driving, it is clearly still running in some capacity.

edit: For 225mph challenge, I was able to beat it with a Ford GT. However, the stock engine could not give enough power (which is insane, because those engines have made more than 2000hp IRL) so I swapped in the V10 and gave it twin turbos.

 

[Nielsen]

@Eunos_Cosmo

I just drove the 996 GT3 and 992 Carrera S back to back. It’s true the 996 has a tendency to lose its rear while on-throttle and steering at high speeds. To me the input range feels off. It’s like it keeps turning when it should begin to understeer, and things escalate fast once the heavy rear kicks out.