Forza
- Thread starter GT Obsession
- 2,956 comments
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- 660
If the box is being pushed less than 90%, but PD is pushing the ps2 to it's fullest, am I not wrong, isn't GT4 going to be the better game in the end?
I don't think that the Forza guys know as much about the box as PD knows about the PS2. It doesn't matter about the "what if's" and "if gt4 was on the box" or "forza on ps2". It isn't happening. Fact. I do think that Forza 2 will more than likely be better than GT4 (graphically and physics), but it won't have any more content than it because of limitations of the DVD. If somehow the Forza team does find out a lot about the box and makes the most realistic game ever, even better than GT, I may just save up and buy myself a box. The more I read and think about Forza, the better it sounds. It would be great to have two good games to play while my homework is sitting in it's bag, but more than likely not going to happen. I'm looking foreward to the final reviews of both games. I don't think it will end the debate. As a matter of fact, this debate will probably never end. But if forza supports the DFP somehow by miracle, GT may be in for some really good compitition.
And that screenie of laguna looks great BTW. I still haven't seen one of GT4.
I don't think that the Forza guys know as much about the box as PD knows about the PS2. It doesn't matter about the "what if's" and "if gt4 was on the box" or "forza on ps2". It isn't happening. Fact. I do think that Forza 2 will more than likely be better than GT4 (graphically and physics), but it won't have any more content than it because of limitations of the DVD. If somehow the Forza team does find out a lot about the box and makes the most realistic game ever, even better than GT, I may just save up and buy myself a box. The more I read and think about Forza, the better it sounds. It would be great to have two good games to play while my homework is sitting in it's bag, but more than likely not going to happen. I'm looking foreward to the final reviews of both games. I don't think it will end the debate. As a matter of fact, this debate will probably never end. But if forza supports the DFP somehow by miracle, GT may be in for some really good compitition.
And that screenie of laguna looks great BTW. I still haven't seen one of GT4.
personally i'd lock this thread untill both games are actually released, or atleast untill weve seen final code demo's of both.
i'll prolly playing gt4 online more with my real life friends who for some reason all have ps2s, and i'll be playing forza with the good people from the xlink kai community, who mostly own xboxes. Either way i'll be having fun
i'll prolly playing gt4 online more with my real life friends who for some reason all have ps2s, and i'll be playing forza with the good people from the xlink kai community, who mostly own xboxes. Either way i'll be having fun
- 12
Nope, but if you would read a bit more carefully you would have understand that I just made up my opinion upon a game deeply into development. It's not that they started yesterday on the game, if you basicly know the game-scene you also would know that alof stuff is not gonna happen in a couple of month's before finishing the game off. In fact, quite a few examples of games spring to my mind who were visually toned down as game-elements were integrated more and more, needing more power. Compare early Halo en Fable shots with latest shots. It would be naieve and wishfull thinking if you think radical changes are still going to happen. The game is already coming out around november.Eagle
That sounds great, and ofcourse every developer tries to optimize as far as their talents let them, as far as they put effort into it, as far as deadlines let them work on it. With the emphasize on "talent" and "time".
Mostly, these kind of statements are marketing hype, and you oughta know better than that. Read the latest .plan from ID for example, from ID's Robert Duffy ( http://www.gamefinger.com/plan.asp?userid=raduffy&id=16246 ), and with a little technological knowledge you already would have known that the Doom3 PC audio-engine is using such advanced DX8/9.0 soundshaders and mem-consuming effects it's just evident the XBox team has to take their port of the game with a scaled down version, and a totally different approach. The multiple soundshader-engine cannot be utilised in such a hardware-limited environment without eating up too much resources and power. 9 different sounds in realtime for one bullet hitting a wall in 5.1 sound on a PC, in that case there would hardly be any room left for D3-gamecode in the 64MB available DDR for the Box.
Doom3 btw looks, compared to the PC, "awful" on the Box. Doesn't even compare to low-detail/low-res settings on PC, and even at that quality has framerate issues IGN said. Still it's looks okay for the box, just don't compare. And yes, before calling me a fanboy again, the PS2 isn't capable of doing that game decently since it's constructed specificly for latest GPU's and is too mem-hungry.
Graphics are undeniably a big factor of all the important aspects that make a game, and do add up or detract from the fun or gameplay.
Without decent GFX a game is written off much earlier nowadays. And again, I'm not talking about resolution or texture quality, it is much more than that, and essentially mostly about GFX-functionallity in how games use the GFX. In a game like Forza or GT, who are both pretending and trying to simulate real-race environments, GFX could make or break that kind of game. Ferrari F355 Challenge on the PS2 pains the eyes and is so badly done in a visual gameplay-aspect that it couldn't even stand the test of an arcaderacer.
That all doesn't make me a GFX-whore, you could however say it make's me a realism whore to a certain extent. The attention to detail PD put's into GT and really makes it shine is much higher than several people here seem to understand from a gaming standpoint. For instance, take one detail. Replays are big wow-factor after each race in GT that add up to the game's fun. The biggest reason it works so well is not only the way the camera's zoom, move and basicly "film" the race as a real-life TV-race, it's also the way how it it shows the car's animated, as I already said earlier (which is also the case in the game self). Not even talking about the clear lifelike colors and how well the car's are modelled. And how can someone complain here about the car-models and texture's of that game, they are close to real.
The hilly and long Nurb'Ring shows perfectly what I mean with the animation aspect. When the road dips sharply, the car onto that part of the track actually has to "visually slow down" a tiny bit compared to an earlier straight part, especially when your are looking from a distance camera. That's because of the simple fact that horizontal track-length is then replaced by road-altitude. Now, if you don't consider these tiny details, your brain would interpret this as fake, cuz the cars tend to float above the road, not corresponding track-characteristics. This seems like a dumb tiny detail, but just as the very quick bumps when a car get's on and off the curbstones, it's these kind of details that make the game convincing. And you can tell that Yamauchi's favorite hobby is experimenting with photo-camera's, these kind of people and enthusiastics always are looking for the best way to portrait a certain moment.
People also complain here about blurry graphics and bad textures, but watch any race Live on TV and you will know today's TV-camera's (or photo'cam's) always "blurr" distant car's and objects because the camera is differently focussing. In short, again, it is much more realistic if it is done like this instead of using an unlimited sharpness. Then again, if you do this wrong, it looks fake again.
And about the Xbox, if some of you fans would have better listened to developers of whatever company in interviews, you would have known that even they think it's basicly a PC in a box. The essence is a simple Nforce Motherboard, were a beefed up Celly 733 and GF3 is soldered on, using 200 Mhz DDR memory in a unified environment, and the standard Nvidia 5.1 soundchip. Nothing special, except that the exception lies in that it can use this 200 Mhz memory together with a fully equiped GF3. Anyone with an Nforce I or II board will have to settle with a simplified GF2MX or GF4MX if you go for the onboard integrated solution. Every other videocard option needs AGP, and take's away the integrated GFX/unified-mem benefits. These benefits are not that shocking btw.
Ofcourse the box also benefits from alot of software optimised for it, and very low-mem stripped OS-kernels or code-librarie's. But that's essentially mostly mem-saving stuff, not necessarily speed-saving stuff. Alot of coders have already admitted codewise it is all essentially PC related code they use for the Xbox, which was ready to use from PC-code experience. Don't make it any bigger than it is, you make a fool out of yourself if you don't agree with the coders themselves who are dealing with the system on a daily basis. Don't try to outsmart them. The PS2 however really really is a different and difficult piece of hardware, and you can debate if it is good that it is so difficult to get everything out of it.
Btw, why did PGR2 have no car-texture's at all on the boring one-colored cars, and why had it to be scaled down to 30fps, when it has so much more "power" and more potential. Don't complain about the fully textured LeMans cars in GT4 if the Xbox can't even cramm any into their memory since the game asks too much for all the other things, or just can't handle them. But I get it now, we will see all that power unleash in PGR3...
- 2,665
Possibly the longest reply in the history of GTP. I'm well aware of the hardware and similarities to a PC the Xbox boasts, I'm under no illusions, a fact underlined by my friend who dismantled his eventually and is now using the controller for a PC pad and the hard drive in his server. I think you're trying to throw as many facts behind your arguement as possible, but the problem is I personally don't really care that much, I'm a proud PS2 owner, won't buy an Xbox or Xbox2 without some great incentives. I'm just throwing out the other side of the coin because if I don't code will be in here calling you a tool and a douche and not exactly making any headway - I'd rather see something interesting to read. I certainly got that in that GameFinger link you posted.
I haven't played PGR2, I don't know how good/bad PGR2 is, I'm frankly not that interested, it doesn't have anything particularly special GT4 won't have, I don't own an Xbox anyway. I don't expect PGR3 (assuming it eventuates) to magically make use of all this power supposedly waiting to be tapped into. Once again, I'm under no illusions about Forza being the best it can possibly be either. I don't expect some miraculous overhaul in terms of visuals, what I would like to see is a decent competitor to GT4 launched that forces PD to go that one mile even further to prove that they are just above and beyond any other racing game producer on the planet. Anything that pushes them whatsoever is a good thing.
I'd say Forza won't reappear on the Xbox given Xbox2 specifications and rumours floating around from time to time, but if the Forza dev team are truly dedicated, they'll be toying with Xbox2 kits and getting to know things in preparation to make a fist of Forza 2 (let's face it, there'll be more), and if in doing so they can carry the fight to the GT franchise, so much the better.
I still think some of your reasoning sucks. Attention to detail is great, but by all accounts the Forza guys are including a respectable amount. Your example about the car slowing as it travels downhill because it's now moving both vertically and horizontally is all well and good, but that's not a graphical touch, that's a result of a good physics engine. I haven't seen what you commented on, I'd be surprised if that was the case because I'd have thought that the increased distance by travelling vertically as well as horizontally would have been counteracted by the fact the downhill slope should increase speeds thanks to gravity.
I'm not complaining about anyone's car models either - I think GT4 looks simply stunning, I look at pics like those ones of the Falkine Skyline Nur Spec leaping from the ground and roaring around the Nordschleife, or the C60 Pescarolo/Courage prototypes and I realise that we're really being treated to something remarkable. If Forza can make PD make GT that bit more remarkable, hats off to the Forza guys, because nothing has really pushed GT yet, and I think it'd be good for someone to do so.
I haven't played PGR2, I don't know how good/bad PGR2 is, I'm frankly not that interested, it doesn't have anything particularly special GT4 won't have, I don't own an Xbox anyway. I don't expect PGR3 (assuming it eventuates) to magically make use of all this power supposedly waiting to be tapped into. Once again, I'm under no illusions about Forza being the best it can possibly be either. I don't expect some miraculous overhaul in terms of visuals, what I would like to see is a decent competitor to GT4 launched that forces PD to go that one mile even further to prove that they are just above and beyond any other racing game producer on the planet. Anything that pushes them whatsoever is a good thing.
I'd say Forza won't reappear on the Xbox given Xbox2 specifications and rumours floating around from time to time, but if the Forza dev team are truly dedicated, they'll be toying with Xbox2 kits and getting to know things in preparation to make a fist of Forza 2 (let's face it, there'll be more), and if in doing so they can carry the fight to the GT franchise, so much the better.
I still think some of your reasoning sucks. Attention to detail is great, but by all accounts the Forza guys are including a respectable amount. Your example about the car slowing as it travels downhill because it's now moving both vertically and horizontally is all well and good, but that's not a graphical touch, that's a result of a good physics engine. I haven't seen what you commented on, I'd be surprised if that was the case because I'd have thought that the increased distance by travelling vertically as well as horizontally would have been counteracted by the fact the downhill slope should increase speeds thanks to gravity.
I'm not complaining about anyone's car models either - I think GT4 looks simply stunning, I look at pics like those ones of the Falkine Skyline Nur Spec leaping from the ground and roaring around the Nordschleife, or the C60 Pescarolo/Courage prototypes and I realise that we're really being treated to something remarkable. If Forza can make PD make GT that bit more remarkable, hats off to the Forza guys, because nothing has really pushed GT yet, and I think it'd be good for someone to do so.
- 650
I havn't been keeping up with the various updates on other titles, so when I saw this thread, I looked up more about Forza. After doing so, I'm not sure I'm understanding why this game is even being considered competition for GT4. I must be missing something.
Lethalchem
Both are realistic driving/racing simulators, but Forza will have features that GT4 doesn't have and GT4 will have features which are missing in Forza.
Did you see the post by Hajaz on page 5 in this thread and
did you check this link http://www.xbox.com/en-us/forza/themakers2.htm
(you have to register to the site to be able to read it, but I can post the info in this thread if you want to read it).
This is a interview with the developers with lots of info
(link: http://www.xbox.com/en-us/forza/themakers.htm)
Xbox.com: Forza Motorsport has been in secret development at Microsoft Game Studios for quite some time now. Tell us how the project got started. Who pitched the idea? When did you first realize that Forza Motorsport would be a reality?
Greenawalt: The stars aligned (and continue to align) to make this product happen. In a sense, the team was pitched more than the project. As individuals, the leads of this team had been publishing both PC and Xbox racing games for a few years, including RalliSport Challenge, Project Gotham Racing, and Midtown Madness®. All the while, a really passionate and experienced group was collecting, gaining expertise, and building relationships. In a sense, we had an all-star team before we had a field on which to play. Based on our passions and strengths, a racing simulator on the Xbox seemed right in our wheelhouse. Also, the Gran Turismo series had proven that a well-made and innovative simulator could sell millions on a console and even become a killer app.
In the first year, we built a small team of 20 or so and began putting together a prototype. We really stressed the on-track experience. We wanted the games car handling, audio, and graphics to sell themselves. As part of the prototype, we also needed a vision and high-level feature list that would stand out from the pack. Just making a great simulator would not make a great game. We had to produce a game pitch that would evolve the console racing space and bring new experiences to our players.
As the only internal team in our studio, we wanted to come into the prototype review meeting and hit the ball so far out of the park that theyd have to redefine the term home run. We really burned hot to get that prototype done. Once we emerged from this mini-crunch, and we were able to claim the accolades from our management for the quality of the prototype, we realized that Forza Motorsport was really going to happen. In a way, thats when the hard work really began.
Xbox.com: There are a lot of racing games available for Xbox right now. What is it about Forza Motorsport that differentiates it from games like Project Gotham Racing® 2 or RalliSport Challenge 2?
Greenawalt: Forza Motorsport is a pure simulation engine wrapped in an accessible motorsport-based game world. With realistic assists, fantastic tactile control, and player feedback, gamers will be able to pick up and play. However, because of the depth of the physics, the player can continue to learn about the car and travel the path of mastery as a racing car driver. Every car is a new experience. Weight and friction transition realistically, allowing great racers to express themselves through their driving. Meanwhile, weve employed realistic traction and anti-spin assists that will allow inexperienced drivers to compete and be successful.
Our tire and suspension model is extremely realistic. We partnered with Toyo tires to get real-world data on production and race tires to model in the game. Our tire model exhibits pressure, wear, heat, and load sensitivity. Tire friction is also affected by the rubber groove and marbles on the road.
We worked with an engineer from Ferraris F1 program to completely simulate real-world suspensions. When configured to simulate a double A arm suspension, the track decreases as the suspension compresses and negative camber is introduced. In turn, the camber and weight affect the tire heat and thus pressure. Most consoles simply do not have the power to compute what were computing for the physics and still render a game.
Xbox.com: Weve heard that some members of the development team are hardcore racing fans. How deep is their involvement with the sport, and how has that influenced the design of the game?
Greenawalt: Weve got a very passionate and well-connected team. Some are professional racers, while others are hardcore racing fans. Monday morning water-cooler talk invariably revolves around the weekends televised F1, ALMS, MotoGP or SpeedGT race or our latest speeding ticket
One of the developers was fifth on the wait list for an Enzo. When he found out the Seattle Ferrari dealer was only going to receive three, he dropped off the list and ordered a Lamborghini. This same developer drives his 360 Modena at its limit at track daysand on his way to the office. The first time I met this developer, he had just climbed out of his car at Laguna Seca, where he placed seventh in a Star Mazda open-wheel race.
One of our artists is a professional Rally driver. Two team members have raced in open-wheel leagues. We have several accomplished motorcycle racers. Weve also got some serious tuners and car collectors. A recent addition to the team has an AC Cobra replica making more than 600 hp in a 1500lb body. The rumble from that car will rattle your teeth loose. When this project began, our planner had an RX7 with a suspension so tight that you needed kidney dialysis after a ride in it. Lately, Ive been working with the design lead for PGR 2 on my S4. On the outside its pretty stealthy, but I assure you that its got boost. It still cant compete with his Viper ACR, but a project car cant be built overnight!
Most of the team is addicted to going fast. In developing a simulator, you couldnt ask to be surrounded by better subject matter experts. Whether the subject is car tuning, car upgrades, or track layouts, I always have the best resources sitting just down the hall from me.
Xbox.com: Were there any racing games that inspired your team? If so, what were they?
Greenawalt: Obviously, the GT series has been a huge influence on this team. Personally speaking, the original Gran Turismo was the only reason I bought my first console. Without that game, several of us probably wouldnt have become involved in this industry. Polyphony has created a great series.
Im sure many will see the influence of SEGAs classic Ferrari 355 coin-op game in our E3 presentation. We have a 355 machine with a triple-screen set up in the lobby of our office. The art lead and I still love to play the old Sportcar GT game for the PC. It was a great blend of simulation and accessible fun. It also had really cool cars and real-world tracks.
A few team members participate in PC online racing sim leagues for Papyrus Grand Prix Legends and NASCAR Racing 2003. These games have a small, but fanatical following. Some of these communities have created third-party telemetry and replay analyzer programs as well as huge content mod packs. Recently, one of my buddies showed me an online league based on a version of F1 2004 that was mod-ed to have FIA GT and ALMS cars and tracks. That looked pretty fun but extremely challenging. These hard-core communities are a better source of inspiration than any game could be.
Xbox.com: Describe the gameplay of Forza Motorsport. Is it pure simulation? Will gamers be able to pick up and play a single race as well as play an entire season in a career mode?
Greenawalt: Its career is a racing sandboxwith hundreds of hours of customization and racing gameplay. The games unlocking and progression structure is a blend between open-ended exploration and linear leveling.
In Forza Motorsport, you can collect and personalize cars from more than 60 of the worlds top manufacturers. These cars can then be driven in hundreds of races, which are broken down into a dozen different real-world race types. If hot-lapping is your thing, have at it. If you prefer point-to-point racing, we have that, too. Looking for standard circuit racing? We have lots of that on both real-world race tracks and stunning fictitious race tracks. Forza Motorsport also contains interesting race types plucked from throughout the world of motorsports, so it doesnt limit you to a linear path. You can gain money and prestige whenever and wherever you want.
Xbox.com: Realistic artificial intelligence seems difficult to achieve in games. How is the development team ensuring the quality of the single-player experience?
Greenawalt: Everyone talks about A.I. in racing games. Rather than spitting out features, let me simply frame our approach and let you draw your own conclusions. You know when I was saying that weve assembled a team of all-stars? I wasnt kidding. We actually have several high-level developers working on our A.I. alone. Our main A.I. developer is new to games, but incredibly experienced in A.I. Hes a PhD A.I. developer from Microsofts research division. In the past, hes worked on robots and learning A.I. systems. Hes teaming with our research division in Cambridge, England, to approach A.I. from a completely different angle.
Its really cool to see a group approaching this problem from a completely new angle. Rather than giving the A.I. different car physics, a predestined spline, and random seed to mix it up, these guys are creating thinking A.I. that drive Forza Motorsports remarkably complex physics engine. Even our A.I. difficulty levels are based on learning artificial intelligence. Lower-difficulty A.I. makes human-like mistakes, such as late braking and late apex-ing.
Its sort of hypnotic to watch the A.I. learn. Ill tune a new car and give it over to the developer to train the A.I. driver. The A.I. driver then takes over the car and starts putting together laps. The laps get better and better as the A.I. tests out the new cars limits. After a couple of laps, the A.I. is putting together really fast times in the exact same car physics the player drives. Whats even more amazing is that the A.I. doesnt have to relearn on other tracks. It just applies what it knows about the cars abilities and starts churning out hot-laps on the new track.
If you dont work in this industry, you might not understand how unprecedented this is. Every other racing game Ive seen has used slightly different physics and predestined splines for the A.I. The artificial intelligence in Forza Motorsport is truly intelligent.
Xbox.com: How will physics and damage modeling affect gameplay?
Greenawalt: The on-track experience is a simulation. However, we have customizable levels of difficulty, in the form of damage, assists, and opponent skill, that allow you to alter your experience.
Forza Motorsport features performance-affecting damage. However, realistic damage can be extremely punishing. Therefore, weve integrated damage into the difficulty system. You can play with fully simulated damage, limited damage, or simply cosmetic damage.
Challenging yourself will increase the rewards for winning. With the difficulty settings at default, I expect most players to be able to pick up and play the game successfully. Meanwhile, they are encouraged and armed to grow their racing skills.
Xbox.com: To what extent will players be able to customize their vehicles?
Greenawalt: The upgrades fall into three buckets: appearance upgrades, performance upgrades, and performance tuning.
The cars, from more than 60 manufacturers, include some hot sport compact cars like the Dodge SRT4 and Nissan 350Z. Weve licensed real-world body kits for the hot tuner cars. These are the appearance upgrades. Based on the number of kits weve created, we have several billion possible visual car permutations. Of course, we are a simulator, so each of these kits has weight and aero components to them as well. We also have an extremely powerful paint job editor. This editor allows you to place decals and vinyl primitives all over the car. Youre not limited to specific shapes and locations, so you can go ahead and freestyle.
As for tuning and performance upgrades, lets just say, youve never been able to do the level of tuning available in Forza Motorsportignition timing, boost pressure, fuel ratio, not to mention the standard tire pressure, camber, caster, toe, gear ratios In the upgrade category, Forza Motorsport includes everything you need to transform your stock performance car into an absolute track monster. And, of course, all of the parts are based directly on real-world upgrades youd find on the track, from cat-bypass and cat-back exhaust to centrifugal superchargers, large surface area intercoolers, cold air intake, and triple-plate clutch.
Xbox.com: Anything youd like to add in closing?
Greenawalt: This game is made by car freaks in the hopes of infecting the world. If you know a ton about cars and racing technology, youll appreciate the depth. If youre a racer, youll be able to express yourself in the incredible physics engine. If you dont know much about cars, but still get saucer eyes when you see a bright red sports car or a hot tuner car rolling down the strip, youre gonna love this game.
(link: http://www.xbox.com/en-us/forza/themakers.htm)
Xbox.com: Forza Motorsport has been in secret development at Microsoft Game Studios for quite some time now. Tell us how the project got started. Who pitched the idea? When did you first realize that Forza Motorsport would be a reality?
Greenawalt: The stars aligned (and continue to align) to make this product happen. In a sense, the team was pitched more than the project. As individuals, the leads of this team had been publishing both PC and Xbox racing games for a few years, including RalliSport Challenge, Project Gotham Racing, and Midtown Madness®. All the while, a really passionate and experienced group was collecting, gaining expertise, and building relationships. In a sense, we had an all-star team before we had a field on which to play. Based on our passions and strengths, a racing simulator on the Xbox seemed right in our wheelhouse. Also, the Gran Turismo series had proven that a well-made and innovative simulator could sell millions on a console and even become a killer app.
In the first year, we built a small team of 20 or so and began putting together a prototype. We really stressed the on-track experience. We wanted the games car handling, audio, and graphics to sell themselves. As part of the prototype, we also needed a vision and high-level feature list that would stand out from the pack. Just making a great simulator would not make a great game. We had to produce a game pitch that would evolve the console racing space and bring new experiences to our players.
As the only internal team in our studio, we wanted to come into the prototype review meeting and hit the ball so far out of the park that theyd have to redefine the term home run. We really burned hot to get that prototype done. Once we emerged from this mini-crunch, and we were able to claim the accolades from our management for the quality of the prototype, we realized that Forza Motorsport was really going to happen. In a way, thats when the hard work really began.
Xbox.com: There are a lot of racing games available for Xbox right now. What is it about Forza Motorsport that differentiates it from games like Project Gotham Racing® 2 or RalliSport Challenge 2?
Greenawalt: Forza Motorsport is a pure simulation engine wrapped in an accessible motorsport-based game world. With realistic assists, fantastic tactile control, and player feedback, gamers will be able to pick up and play. However, because of the depth of the physics, the player can continue to learn about the car and travel the path of mastery as a racing car driver. Every car is a new experience. Weight and friction transition realistically, allowing great racers to express themselves through their driving. Meanwhile, weve employed realistic traction and anti-spin assists that will allow inexperienced drivers to compete and be successful.
Our tire and suspension model is extremely realistic. We partnered with Toyo tires to get real-world data on production and race tires to model in the game. Our tire model exhibits pressure, wear, heat, and load sensitivity. Tire friction is also affected by the rubber groove and marbles on the road.
We worked with an engineer from Ferraris F1 program to completely simulate real-world suspensions. When configured to simulate a double A arm suspension, the track decreases as the suspension compresses and negative camber is introduced. In turn, the camber and weight affect the tire heat and thus pressure. Most consoles simply do not have the power to compute what were computing for the physics and still render a game.
Xbox.com: Weve heard that some members of the development team are hardcore racing fans. How deep is their involvement with the sport, and how has that influenced the design of the game?
Greenawalt: Weve got a very passionate and well-connected team. Some are professional racers, while others are hardcore racing fans. Monday morning water-cooler talk invariably revolves around the weekends televised F1, ALMS, MotoGP or SpeedGT race or our latest speeding ticket
One of the developers was fifth on the wait list for an Enzo. When he found out the Seattle Ferrari dealer was only going to receive three, he dropped off the list and ordered a Lamborghini. This same developer drives his 360 Modena at its limit at track daysand on his way to the office. The first time I met this developer, he had just climbed out of his car at Laguna Seca, where he placed seventh in a Star Mazda open-wheel race.
One of our artists is a professional Rally driver. Two team members have raced in open-wheel leagues. We have several accomplished motorcycle racers. Weve also got some serious tuners and car collectors. A recent addition to the team has an AC Cobra replica making more than 600 hp in a 1500lb body. The rumble from that car will rattle your teeth loose. When this project began, our planner had an RX7 with a suspension so tight that you needed kidney dialysis after a ride in it. Lately, Ive been working with the design lead for PGR 2 on my S4. On the outside its pretty stealthy, but I assure you that its got boost. It still cant compete with his Viper ACR, but a project car cant be built overnight!
Most of the team is addicted to going fast. In developing a simulator, you couldnt ask to be surrounded by better subject matter experts. Whether the subject is car tuning, car upgrades, or track layouts, I always have the best resources sitting just down the hall from me.
Xbox.com: Were there any racing games that inspired your team? If so, what were they?
Greenawalt: Obviously, the GT series has been a huge influence on this team. Personally speaking, the original Gran Turismo was the only reason I bought my first console. Without that game, several of us probably wouldnt have become involved in this industry. Polyphony has created a great series.
Im sure many will see the influence of SEGAs classic Ferrari 355 coin-op game in our E3 presentation. We have a 355 machine with a triple-screen set up in the lobby of our office. The art lead and I still love to play the old Sportcar GT game for the PC. It was a great blend of simulation and accessible fun. It also had really cool cars and real-world tracks.
A few team members participate in PC online racing sim leagues for Papyrus Grand Prix Legends and NASCAR Racing 2003. These games have a small, but fanatical following. Some of these communities have created third-party telemetry and replay analyzer programs as well as huge content mod packs. Recently, one of my buddies showed me an online league based on a version of F1 2004 that was mod-ed to have FIA GT and ALMS cars and tracks. That looked pretty fun but extremely challenging. These hard-core communities are a better source of inspiration than any game could be.
Xbox.com: Describe the gameplay of Forza Motorsport. Is it pure simulation? Will gamers be able to pick up and play a single race as well as play an entire season in a career mode?
Greenawalt: Its career is a racing sandboxwith hundreds of hours of customization and racing gameplay. The games unlocking and progression structure is a blend between open-ended exploration and linear leveling.
In Forza Motorsport, you can collect and personalize cars from more than 60 of the worlds top manufacturers. These cars can then be driven in hundreds of races, which are broken down into a dozen different real-world race types. If hot-lapping is your thing, have at it. If you prefer point-to-point racing, we have that, too. Looking for standard circuit racing? We have lots of that on both real-world race tracks and stunning fictitious race tracks. Forza Motorsport also contains interesting race types plucked from throughout the world of motorsports, so it doesnt limit you to a linear path. You can gain money and prestige whenever and wherever you want.
Xbox.com: Realistic artificial intelligence seems difficult to achieve in games. How is the development team ensuring the quality of the single-player experience?
Greenawalt: Everyone talks about A.I. in racing games. Rather than spitting out features, let me simply frame our approach and let you draw your own conclusions. You know when I was saying that weve assembled a team of all-stars? I wasnt kidding. We actually have several high-level developers working on our A.I. alone. Our main A.I. developer is new to games, but incredibly experienced in A.I. Hes a PhD A.I. developer from Microsofts research division. In the past, hes worked on robots and learning A.I. systems. Hes teaming with our research division in Cambridge, England, to approach A.I. from a completely different angle.
Its really cool to see a group approaching this problem from a completely new angle. Rather than giving the A.I. different car physics, a predestined spline, and random seed to mix it up, these guys are creating thinking A.I. that drive Forza Motorsports remarkably complex physics engine. Even our A.I. difficulty levels are based on learning artificial intelligence. Lower-difficulty A.I. makes human-like mistakes, such as late braking and late apex-ing.
Its sort of hypnotic to watch the A.I. learn. Ill tune a new car and give it over to the developer to train the A.I. driver. The A.I. driver then takes over the car and starts putting together laps. The laps get better and better as the A.I. tests out the new cars limits. After a couple of laps, the A.I. is putting together really fast times in the exact same car physics the player drives. Whats even more amazing is that the A.I. doesnt have to relearn on other tracks. It just applies what it knows about the cars abilities and starts churning out hot-laps on the new track.
If you dont work in this industry, you might not understand how unprecedented this is. Every other racing game Ive seen has used slightly different physics and predestined splines for the A.I. The artificial intelligence in Forza Motorsport is truly intelligent.
Xbox.com: How will physics and damage modeling affect gameplay?
Greenawalt: The on-track experience is a simulation. However, we have customizable levels of difficulty, in the form of damage, assists, and opponent skill, that allow you to alter your experience.
Forza Motorsport features performance-affecting damage. However, realistic damage can be extremely punishing. Therefore, weve integrated damage into the difficulty system. You can play with fully simulated damage, limited damage, or simply cosmetic damage.
Challenging yourself will increase the rewards for winning. With the difficulty settings at default, I expect most players to be able to pick up and play the game successfully. Meanwhile, they are encouraged and armed to grow their racing skills.
Xbox.com: To what extent will players be able to customize their vehicles?
Greenawalt: The upgrades fall into three buckets: appearance upgrades, performance upgrades, and performance tuning.
The cars, from more than 60 manufacturers, include some hot sport compact cars like the Dodge SRT4 and Nissan 350Z. Weve licensed real-world body kits for the hot tuner cars. These are the appearance upgrades. Based on the number of kits weve created, we have several billion possible visual car permutations. Of course, we are a simulator, so each of these kits has weight and aero components to them as well. We also have an extremely powerful paint job editor. This editor allows you to place decals and vinyl primitives all over the car. Youre not limited to specific shapes and locations, so you can go ahead and freestyle.
As for tuning and performance upgrades, lets just say, youve never been able to do the level of tuning available in Forza Motorsportignition timing, boost pressure, fuel ratio, not to mention the standard tire pressure, camber, caster, toe, gear ratios In the upgrade category, Forza Motorsport includes everything you need to transform your stock performance car into an absolute track monster. And, of course, all of the parts are based directly on real-world upgrades youd find on the track, from cat-bypass and cat-back exhaust to centrifugal superchargers, large surface area intercoolers, cold air intake, and triple-plate clutch.
Xbox.com: Anything youd like to add in closing?
Greenawalt: This game is made by car freaks in the hopes of infecting the world. If you know a ton about cars and racing technology, youll appreciate the depth. If youre a racer, youll be able to express yourself in the incredible physics engine. If you dont know much about cars, but still get saucer eyes when you see a bright red sports car or a hot tuner car rolling down the strip, youre gonna love this game.
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Erahk64-
Thanks for the post about that interview. It was very interesting.👍
For me, most of that was just media hype. How many times have we heard some interview that raves on about something, only to have the finished product not quite meet expectations.
I like the parts where they discuss proper AI, and I also like the sound of all the fine tuning/modification abilities. However, the graphics really detract from the experience significantly in my opinion. Graphics arn't everything, true, but you need to have the whole package if you're going up against something like the GT series. Nowhere did they mention any effort being placed on track times mimicing real track times. PD has done their homework, and seemed to have brought lap times within very realistic parameters. That's part of what makes driving these tracks so wonderful. It's the next best thing to being there.
It sounds like this will be a fun game for anyone who enjoys motorsports, but I still don't put it in the same category with GT4.
Thanks for the post about that interview. It was very interesting.👍
For me, most of that was just media hype. How many times have we heard some interview that raves on about something, only to have the finished product not quite meet expectations.
I like the parts where they discuss proper AI, and I also like the sound of all the fine tuning/modification abilities. However, the graphics really detract from the experience significantly in my opinion. Graphics arn't everything, true, but you need to have the whole package if you're going up against something like the GT series. Nowhere did they mention any effort being placed on track times mimicing real track times. PD has done their homework, and seemed to have brought lap times within very realistic parameters. That's part of what makes driving these tracks so wonderful. It's the next best thing to being there.
It sounds like this will be a fun game for anyone who enjoys motorsports, but I still don't put it in the same category with GT4.
Lethalchem
No prob.
We will have to wait for more hands-on previews and reviews to see if it's media
hype.
But the physics are very good compared to any racing/driving sim according to hands-on previews. That is a promising indication.
Graphics may change. Most pictures and videos are from the demo version shown at E3 and demo builds can be pretty old.
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Seen a very good vid of Forza and it looks quite impressive, car movement isn't exactly believable right now but that will be ironed out I bet, but the car, the scenery and the damage looks not too bad, some popup in a tunnel but this is after all a wip. Damage was kinda weird how it mirrored itself onto the opposite side but it's still in development so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, looks promising though.
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erahk64No prob.
We will have to wait for more hands-on previews and reviews to see if it's media
hype.
But the physics are very good compared to any racing/driving sim according to hands-on previews. That is a promising indication.
I'm ALL for giving GT4 a run for their money though. The more titles that attempt to knock it off the top spot, the more cool games I get to enjoy!
yup, in the long run its a win win situation. You can bet on gt5 copying some of Forza's features , just like Forza copied alot of ideas from GT games.
I wouldnt worry too much about the graphics either. The screen i posted earlier that shows the game from in in game type camera angle is just fine and looks on par with GT imo.
I also find playing xbox racers a bit easier on the eyes coz you dont have as much flickering as you do on ps2.
its obvious that MS are only just getting their feet wet and its more about getting a userbase for Foza2 on xbox2.
I wouldnt worry too much about the graphics either. The screen i posted earlier that shows the game from in in game type camera angle is just fine and looks on par with GT imo.
I also find playing xbox racers a bit easier on the eyes coz you dont have as much flickering as you do on ps2.
its obvious that MS are only just getting their feet wet and its more about getting a userbase for Foza2 on xbox2.
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- GTP_TheCracker
The tyres on the sportscars racers look very poor - well out of proportion, i've noticed that on other forza screens
Some of those screens with the GT-One look to be at Tsukuba circuit? - is Forza just going to have every circuit from GT4? Dare i say it, but forzas Tsukuba looks more realistic then GT4's - from all the real footage i've seen from Tsukuba.
Some of those screens with the GT-One look to be at Tsukuba circuit? - is Forza just going to have every circuit from GT4? Dare i say it, but forzas Tsukuba looks more realistic then GT4's - from all the real footage i've seen from Tsukuba.
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- GTP_TheCracker
The McLaren isn't too bad, although that rear tyre looks a little chunky, but the pure 'GT Racers' have very high side-walls, more like a F1 tyre than a modern low-profile racing slick.
That GT-One especially looks to be running at least '70' profiles!!!
That GT-One especially looks to be running at least '70' profiles!!!
TheCracker
But different angles and lighting may change how things look.
It's probably better to wait for videos to see the cars from different angles.
There are also a lot of different tyres you can choose according to this
preview: http://xbox.ign.com/articles/514/514393p1.html
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erahk64
I realise that these are only 'early' pictures of Forza - and subject to amendment
BUT - these wheels/tyres are just not in proportion compared to the real thing:
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- GTP_TheCracker
and this.....
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I'm not worried about the looks of Forza myself. Just the handling and wheel support ... all that's really important in my opinion. PGR2 has shown that they know how to handle the on-line stuff and graphics quite well, though I do agree that the cars don't look as good as in GT. I think the tires for one thing aren't fully shaded in Forza. Lighting also isn't as natural as in GT and cars keep looking plastic, but it does seem to be improving.
I want this game to be good - the more good games the better. But experience has taught skepticism. We'll see what happens ...
I want this game to be good - the more good games the better. But experience has taught skepticism. We'll see what happens ...
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My take on Forza: No wheel, no sale.
